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Only for "modern apps" packaged for Store distribution.
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Sep 26, 2023 05:52
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Falcon2001 posted:Like seriously, all of this is absolutely nuts. They hosed up, but nothing about their fuckup indicates any real or permanent harm to the computer beyond KSP2 not running properly. People like to start their day off with a coffee and a jolly good complain on the internet 
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Sep 26, 2023 09:00
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Kazinsal posted:It was designed originally for COM components, then between 3.1 and NT they realized, oh man, we can just have programmers shove their config data in this structured, centralized database with optimized access routines, instead of littering the filesystem with INI files that need to be parsed line by line constantly. I don't know what you're complaining about. Com and the registry sucked all kinds of poo poo. It's much easier now.
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Sep 26, 2023 12:31
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Posting on the  pageFor some reason I thought that the Windows registry was fairly simple and permanently loaded in memory, is that not the case? Or is it more like one of the big ACID databases with a cache and a WAL journal and all that stuff?
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Sep 26, 2023 13:11
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It seems like it's as simple as they did Prefs.Set(key, value) except without realizing that 'key' is different with every run. Unity is the thing that spams it into the registry. The idea that this is some absolute nuclear fuckup by the KSP devs and they should never be trusted to write code again is hilarious. It reminds me of when I used to work in a computer shop around 2008 doing tech support and someone had brought in a computer that didn't work properly, and the issue turned out to be that some Kodak photo printer software (if I remember correctly) was creating tiny files in a temp directory at a rate of several per second any time the computer was on. It had created so many junk files, we're talking like hundreds of millions of files, that Windows just didn't really work anymore. Now there's a flaw I could see getting upset over.
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Sep 26, 2023 13:12
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Hammerite posted:People like to start their day off with a coffee and a jolly good complain on the internet If you're not complaining on the internet are you even living?
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Sep 26, 2023 13:12
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Jen heir rick posted:I don't know what you're complaining about. Com and the registry sucked all kinds of poo poo. It's much easier now. ATL was meant to make COM better and somehow made it even worse.
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Sep 26, 2023 13:12
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NihilCredo posted:Posting on the Windows registry comes from the "massively overengineered" phase of windows.
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Sep 26, 2023 13:15
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Volte posted:It seems like it's as simple as they did Prefs.Set(key, value) except without realizing that 'key' is different with every run. Unity is the thing that spams it into the registry. The idea that this is some absolute nuclear fuckup by the KSP devs and they should never be trusted to write code again is hilarious. I've seen a number of Android apps use Prefs as a database. Serialize data into JSON, store it as a string in Preferences. This KSP bug sounds much more understandable.
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Sep 26, 2023 13:24
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the ksp bug wouldn't be that bad if it just left junk in the registry but it does eventually make the game unstartable for some reason so it's not just aesthetics
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Sep 26, 2023 13:32
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322mb of registry entries strikes me as somewhat excessive for a single game.
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Sep 26, 2023 14:28
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Volte posted:It seems like it's as simple as they did Prefs.Set(key, value) except without realizing that 'key' is different with every run. Unity is the thing that spams it into the registry. Yes, this is it. It's the kind of stuff that inevitably happens when you are building on top of a sufficiently complex tower of abstractions. It's likely the programmer didn't even realise anything was going in the registry.
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Sep 26, 2023 16:24
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Athas posted:
I can forgive a programmer missing this but no one in their QA noticed this? It's a combination of "run your game long enough and game doesn't work anymore" and "dumps thousands of mb of keys in the registry" - that kind of bug is a QA wet dream.
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Sep 26, 2023 16:31
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:I can forgive a programmer missing this but no one in their QA noticed this? It's a combination of "run your game long enough and game doesn't work anymore" and "dumps thousands of mb of keys in the registry" - that kind of bug is a QA wet dream. I can't imagine QA looking at the registry.
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Sep 26, 2023 16:54
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:I can forgive a programmer missing this but no one in their QA noticed this? It's a combination of "run your game long enough and game doesn't work anymore" and "dumps thousands of mb of keys in the registry" - that kind of bug is a QA wet dream. If I had to point the finger at any one clear point of failure, it's Unity, because what the hell, why does it store user preferences in the registry??
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Sep 26, 2023 16:56
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Volte posted:This seems like a bug that only happened each time the game was loaded and took months of frequent play on the same user profile to occur, so I would characterize it more as a QA nightmare. It didn't "dump" hundreds of MB of keys into the registry (and the actual amount of data in the registry would have been several times less than that -- the 300+ MB file is a .reg file with all the data dumped into a comma-separated hexadecimal-encoded listing), it trickled them in slowly until suddenly the game stopped working. I like how Windows is the only platform that doesn't get prefs stored on disk: https://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReference/PlayerPrefs.html Actually, I like better how Windows WUP apps do store preferences on disk, so its not even specific just to the whole Windows platform.
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Sep 26, 2023 17:28
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:I can forgive a programmer missing this but no one in their QA noticed this? It's a combination of "run your game long enough and game doesn't work anymore" and "dumps thousands of mb of keys in the registry" - that kind of bug is a QA wet dream. Honestly I wonder how QA even works for a game in Early Access/etc. Or if they even have a QA department, given how that's been chopped in a lot of places.
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Sep 26, 2023 17:35
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Unity is why a 850 MB pixel art game takes up 7.1 GB on Nintendo Switch. Absolute weird bullshit engine.
ExcessBLarg! fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Sep 26, 2023 |
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Sep 26, 2023 18:28
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rjmccall posted:Did Windows not isolate application registries from each other when they started using crazy FS overlays to stop applications from installing DLLs into actual system directories? That era of wacky poo poo was all about making things user-account specific. Isolating different programs running as the same user from each other was still a decade away from being on the radar. These days it's pretty similar to the state of macOS: there's a mechanism for sandboxed applications, but no one uses it.
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Sep 26, 2023 18:39
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ExcessBLarg! posted:Unity is why a 850 MB pixel art game takes up 7.1 GB on Nintendo Switch. Absolute weird bullshit engine.
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Sep 26, 2023 18:41
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ExcessBLarg! posted:Unity is why a 850 MB pixel art game takes up 7.1 GB on Nintendo Switch. Absolute weird bullshit engine. From my understanding, the problem is that Unity provides a lot of the basic architecture you're using on a given platform, and that architecture has to be generic in a lot of ways to work on multiple platforms. Like yeah, it's a weird bullshit engine, but it's also a weird bullshit engine that builds for all major platforms and that was a huge selling point, especially for games that don't need to wring every last drop of performance out of the platform, like 2d pixel art games. Unity has lots of weird problems but like JavaScript, there's a reason it's popular while still being insanely janky.
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Sep 26, 2023 19:02
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I got no evidence for this but I bet that with sufficient investment in solving the problem at Unity and/or the developers of the Switch port you’d get that 7GB of bullshit down to 700MB of bullshit or even less.
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Sep 26, 2023 19:24
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brap posted:I got no evidence for this but I bet that with sufficient investment in solving the problem at Unity and/or the developers of the Switch port you’d get that 7GB of bullshit down to 700MB of bullshit or even less. I mean, the evidence is that the original game is 850mb on disk. It's gotta be some asset packing fuckery to blow it up to almost 10x its size or some other weird poo poo. Macichne Leainig fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Sep 26, 2023 |
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Sep 26, 2023 20:21
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Macichne Leainig posted:I mean, the evidence is that the original game is 850mb on disk. It's gotta be some asset packing fuckery to blow it up to almost 10x its size or some other weird poo poo. This isn't a Unity-specific thing, it's just what happens when you port a game to a console without actually optimising for the platform (or when optimising for different things than storage/download size). Unfortunately porting from a platform to another is an absolute clusterfuck of a process, and Unity if anything helps a ton in making it manageable by a small team. And that small team will still burn a lot of time/budget on getting the port to pass certification and be releasable. But if that small team isn't also given the time/budget/priority to actually then optimise it, you're left with at least one or more of: bad/mediocre performance, huge storage/download size, small weird bugs that no other platform has, minimal integration to the platform, missing small features that other platforms have, tons of extra downloads on top of the base game. And the cause/solution for each one of these is usually different for each game, as well as being a different value for each game (e.g. a small singleplayer 2D game probably won't have bad performance and integration with platform is minimally useful anyway), so this wouldn't be something at the engine/platform level (that Unity/Nintendo could solve). Even for some things that could be engine-level (e.g. asset packing/import/processing), the solutions are never straight wins, they're always trade-offs; maybe some types of games can take that trade-off easily because they don't care about the downside, but that's not most games, so the engine can't make that decision. To top things off, usually the development of the platform-specific parts of each engine are done in concert between the engine company (e.g. Unity) and the platform company (e.g. Nintendo), which means the work happens at a glacial pace with so many recurring issues that honestly it's impressive that it generally works at all most of the time. If instead you chose not to use Unity/Unreal/etc, then you need a large team rather than a small team, and you still have most of those problems and more (as well as requiring tons of platform-specific know-how for each platform for each game). For that specific game, it looks like the game was ported to consoles by an external work-for-hire team. From personal experience that means they were told to just do it and otherwise barely communicated outside of milestone check-ins, the storage/download size was deemed low priority, and by the time it was finished the main game studio didn't care because it worked (which I agree with, for a single-player game console ports are just a way to get a burst of a few more sales with barely a tail on it). e: Don't get me wrong, Unity totally is a weird bullshit engine. But in this case I wouldn't blame Unity/Unreal (or even Nintendo) because it's one of those rare cases where the engines are actually offering something that's miles ahead of any alternative in terms of just getting it done. If these engines didn't exist/have Switch targets, then nothing but AAA and tiny indie games would be going onto the Switch ever. Red Mike fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Sep 26, 2023 |
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Sep 26, 2023 21:19
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Macichne Leainig posted:I mean, the evidence is that the original game is 850mb on disk. It's gotta be some asset packing fuckery to blow it up to almost 10x its size or some other weird poo poo.  obtained a ROM of the Switch version and unpacked it. The total size on disk is 3.51GB instead of the 854MB of the PC version. The Switch version has way more bare data files and they are much larger. The PC version has a 177MB file called "unity3d.data" which is absent on the Switch version. I found reference to a similar issue in this thread which leads me to believe that is a compressed asset bundle and its use depends on the platform settings when building. When I use "Asset Bundle Extractor" to decompress it, it becomes 6.1GB. I believe many of the files' contents are Unity's YAML descriptors of various nearly-identical game objects which explains why it is so highly compressible. Not sure why the Switch version is only 3.5GB instead of the 7+ reported elsewhere, unless that's just a 2x size buffer to account for patches or whatever.So I'm not sure I'd lay this directly at the feet of Unity. I would guess either whoever built the game didn't set the build up with compression enabled properly, or else it was determined that the Switch hardware didn't play nicely with on-the-fly decompression. Anyone know how big the PS4 version is? Volte fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Sep 26, 2023 |
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Sep 26, 2023 21:45
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I didn’t say it was all Unity’s fault but go on I guess
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Sep 26, 2023 21:47
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Macichne Leainig posted:I didn’t say it was all Unity’s fault but go on I guess edit: Looking back in the Steam depot history it seems that it was originally uncompressed on PC as well, and they switched to a compressed build shortly after release. So it could just be that the consoles never got that change. See: https://steamdb.info/depot/774362/history/?changeid=M:936010028863753902 Volte fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Sep 26, 2023 |
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Sep 26, 2023 21:47
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Macichne Leainig posted:I didn’t say it was all Unity’s fault but go on I guess My bad, meant to quote ExcessBLarg!'s post. Volte posted:it was determined that the Switch hardware didn't play nicely with on-the-fly decompression Without getting into the weeds, there's a load of things around asset/texture compression where yes the better option on Switch is to avoid it entirely if you can, and a larger storage size is a good trade-off for an extra month or more of contractor time, especially since it's fixable later via a patch if it becomes an issue.
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Sep 26, 2023 22:01
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Red Mike posted:My bad, meant to quote ExcessBLarg!'s post. The flipside is that Windows has ridiculously bad file system performance (and for lots of games, spare CPU to decompress), so bundles can significantly help there.
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Sep 26, 2023 22:31
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OddObserver posted:Windows has ridiculously bad file system performance
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Sep 26, 2023 22:36
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OddObserver posted:The flipside is that Windows has ridiculously bad file system performance (and for lots of games, spare CPU to decompress), so bundles can significantly help there. Yeah, that's basically what I mean by every solution having trade-offs. Compared to Windows though, on consoles when you look at solutions for a problem they generally all have big drawbacks/caveats that you can only really mitigate through lots of extra dev time, or by not using a feature/your game being limited in some way/your game just happening to be the right genre/type of game that means the drawback isn't an issue. That's slowly improving over the years, but Xbox/PS are light years ahead of Nintendo on it from what I hear.
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Sep 26, 2023 22:42
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:Compared to what? Linux, which is just kinda bad. (It's very noticeable with some games that have a lot of small files they read at startup, like some Paradox stuff).
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Sep 26, 2023 22:45
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Have you heard the good news of operating systems with in-kernel ZFS?
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Sep 26, 2023 22:56
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:Compared to what? Compared to systems where you never have a poorly written antivirus making each file open take 100 times as long as it should, such as consoles. Outside of things like AV scanners, it would be more accurate to say that Windows has different filesystem performance characteristics from other platforms, so software ported to it tends to run into solvable filesystem perf problems.
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Sep 26, 2023 23:24
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If your data is reasonably compressible, storing it compressed on disk is faster unless you’re absolutely starved for CPU cycles or your access patterns are very friendly to the OS’s disk cache. Decompression is really cheap, doing 2x (could easily be 10x) as much I/O is really expensive. The exact tipping point varies by platform but the core idea does not. Where you get platform-specific differences is usually stuff like how well they deal with huge directories, tiny files (much smaller than a page), and so on. And yeah, stuff like pervasive AV on Windows.
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Sep 27, 2023 00:59
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Volte posted:I was very curious about this so I Volte posted:Not sure why the Switch version is only 3.5GB instead of the 7+ reported elsewhere, unless that's just a 2x size buffer to account for patches or whatever. My point though is that it's unfortunate that Unity's "default" (or at least, most straightforward) asset management approach is recognized as so woefully inefficient that it's not recommended for use, and that while better solutions exist you have to go out of your way to make use of them.
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Sep 27, 2023 02:24
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Just found you can do something like sql injection in my game lol I let you rename heroes between fights and it all uses my weird modding thing. If you rename them to eg "jenny.hp.500" then they gain the name "jenny" and 500hp.
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Sep 30, 2023 10:43
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Tann posted:Just found you can do something like sql injection in my game lol This sounds like a cool feature, not a bug.
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Sep 30, 2023 15:57
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Jen heir rick posted:This sounds like a cool feature, not a bug. The reason you can do this is because I'm adding some "modding" that works like this. Though ideally you can't use it to get infinite hp during a standard game!
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Sep 30, 2023 16:12
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Have you tried sanitizing your inputs op?
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Sep 30, 2023 17:49
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