Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

skasion posted:

A dragon is an animal named after dragons. You know, like the dragons in the Bible, or the ones the Roman army uses as standards. No one would say that an earthworm isn't a worm and is only named after worms, even though the English word worm has the same semantic history. It's clear that there's some overlap conceptually between worms and worms: they're long, they're thin, they're creepy (literally, they creep about on or in the ground), they twist about, you may well find them in a burial mound if you go digging up treasure. Other features like the scales or the fire or the wings or the penetrating hypnotic gaze or the literal identity with Satan may be present in only some worms, but what do you expect, they can't all be Smaug the Terrible, chiefest and greatest of calamities.

Canst thou draw out Leviathan with a taxonomy?

so, by that logic dragon flies are dragons, too? and dragon fruit should then count, too, since they're fruit named after dragons

gently caress, now I can't stop thinking about plant dragons

# ? Oct 7, 2023 22:51

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# ? May 10, 2024 02:14

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Snapdragons

# ? Oct 7, 2023 23:05

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Butt draggin'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKxlvWOqmFs

# ? Oct 7, 2023 23:07

Star Man: Jun 1, 2008; There's a star maaaaaan
Over the rainbow

I've managed to fool a few people into thinking jackalopes are in fact real.

# ? Oct 7, 2023 23:26

Brawnfire: Jul 13, 2004; 🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

Tulip posted:

If I were a farmer with no internet access who learned everything via word of mouth it would be very easy to convince me that dragons existed somewhere else even if I had never seen one. I'd just be like "wow that's crazy."

"If dragons are real... then show me."
*flashes you a highly-detailed woodcut print*
"...well I'll be goddamned. That's nuts."

# ? Oct 7, 2023 23:28

Hippocrass: Aug 18, 2015; That third panel of the first comic just makes it. It's still funny if you remove it, but that panel included just makes it top tier.

Star Man posted:

I've managed to fool a few people into thinking jackalopes are in fact real.

I mean that's because they are.

I've seen their heads!

# ? Oct 7, 2023 23:33

Star Man: Jun 1, 2008; There's a star maaaaaan
Over the rainbow

Hippocrass posted:

I mean that's because they are.

I've seen their heads!

It's true!

# ? Oct 8, 2023 00:10

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

Libluini posted:

so, by that logic dragon flies are dragons, too? and dragon fruit should then count, too, since they're fruit named after dragons

gently caress, now I can't stop thinking about plant dragons

My I introduce you to a little series called pok�mon?

Also I hope one day future archaeologists find and debate the nature of pok�mon.

Pikachu was the chief of the pantheon, while raichu the god of storms and power stood in opposition. The post of high priest changed on a regular basis, each office holder introducing a new form, with only Pikachu constant. There seems to have been much debate regarding the status of Lucario as either a ��loving furry cringe mon�� or ��the coolest ever��

Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Oct 8, 2023

# ? Oct 8, 2023 00:22

stringless: Dec 28, 2005; keyboard ⌨️ cowboy

skasion posted:

Canst thou draw out Leviathan with a taxonomy?

What a silly question, they're of the Leviathan type.

# ? Oct 8, 2023 04:43

BrainDance: May 8, 2007; Disco all night long!

I wish I had history questions related to this, because it feels like this thread is the closest fit, but then also not really.

Going from just reading Bart Ehrman's the Apocryphal Gospels I decided to just read all of the stuff from Nag Hammadi (reading Meyer's The Nag Hammadi Scriptures, probably gonna read Pagel's The Gnostic Gospels alongside it.) I don't even know why I'm doing this, I guess vaguely because I just wanna get a feel for that whole very early creation of Christianity kind of time and mindset, and the Orthodox "this was the early church they were unified in their beliefs x church is just like that/descended directly from that" is complete bullshit.

And it feels like the gnostic stuff is the closest thing we have texts from for one of those very Roman-era mystery religions.

A lot of it is a pain in the rear end to read, guys jerking themself off about "watch me say some contradictory thing and then say if you don't get it it's because you don't have gnosis!" but I just read the Gospel of Truth, it's genuinely incredibly well written and kinda beautiful. Whoever wrote it was really good at it, and I just kinda wonder who unknown incredibly talented author from 1800 years ago was. Maybe it actually was Valentinian?

Anyway, Gospel of Truth, absolute pro-read. Not even long but just really good and does explain a whole cosmology and stuff with a lot of that kinda gnostic "these words aren't what you think they are when you first read it" thing but still making sense.

# ? Oct 8, 2023 06:06

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

When people live in a time where literally over half the world is acknowledged as a mystery to them and for all we know maybe dog faced men live in India they probably aren't too fussed on whether dragons are a real thing or not, yeah. If anything there's interesting ideas about non human beings being able and willing to worship God and making a point of showing them doing so.

Reminds me of Islamic folklore that goes that Djinn can and do follow the same religions humans do, that there are Jewish, Christian and Muslim Djinn, and they are judged the same way humans are.

# ? Oct 8, 2023 10:15

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Ghost Leviathan posted:

When people live in a time where literally over half the world is acknowledged as a mystery to them and for all we know maybe dog faced men live in India they probably aren't too fussed on whether dragons are a real thing or not, yeah. If anything there's interesting ideas about non human beings being able and willing to worship God and making a point of showing them doing so.

Reminds me of Islamic folklore that goes that Djinn can and do follow the same religions humans do, that there are Jewish, Christian and Muslim Djinn, and they are judged the same way humans are.

This reminds me of one of the GURPS alternate earths, a super-high-tech/Muslim-dominant setting. When they built AIs, the scholars reasoned: Well, djinn are made of smokeless fire, and that's a pretty good way to describe electricity, so obviously the AIs are djinn. Strangely enough, all AIs are apparently devout Muslims. (So it is said.)

# ? Oct 8, 2023 10:25

LITERALLY A BIRD: Sep 27, 2008; I knew you were trouble
when you flew in

BrainDance posted:

I wish I had history questions related to this, because it feels like this thread is the closest fit, but then also not really.

Going from just reading Bart Ehrman's the Apocryphal Gospels I decided to just read all of the stuff from Nag Hammadi (reading Meyer's The Nag Hammadi Scriptures, probably gonna read Pagel's The Gnostic Gospels alongside it.) I don't even know why I'm doing this, I guess vaguely because I just wanna get a feel for that whole very early creation of Christianity kind of time and mindset, and the Orthodox "this was the early church they were unified in their beliefs x church is just like that/descended directly from that" is complete bullshit.

And it feels like the gnostic stuff is the closest thing we have texts from for one of those very Roman-era mystery religions.

A lot of it is a pain in the rear end to read, guys jerking themself off about "watch me say some contradictory thing and then say if you don't get it it's because you don't have gnosis!" but I just read the Gospel of Truth, it's genuinely incredibly well written and kinda beautiful. Whoever wrote it was really good at it, and I just kinda wonder who unknown incredibly talented author from 1800 years ago was. Maybe it actually was Valentinian?

Anyway, Gospel of Truth, absolute pro-read. Not even long but just really good and does explain a whole cosmology and stuff with a lot of that kinda gnostic "these words aren't what you think they are when you first read it" thing but still making sense.

, currently reading Nag Hammadi buddy

# ? Oct 8, 2023 12:32

Pantaloon Pontiff: Jun 25, 2023

BrainDance posted:

So, this is weird to me. I might be giving medieval people too much of the benefit of the doubt, but this book seems to be asking to be taken literally. I would have assumed by then people had realized dragons were mythical? Since no one in the Roman empire for example had ever really seen one first hand I'd imagine. And it's just so bizarre that they're just walking along and like out of just any old cave 3 dragons pop out. I just imagine, if I was in that situation and time and I read that I'd think "I've passed by hundreds of caves, never seen a dragon pop out."

If you look at the various paintings of "St George and the Dragon", you don't see D&D-style house sized dragon breathing a giant cone of breath weapon. They mostly look like an alligator or crocodile with wings (usually instead of forearms), they're even of similar size to those. If you can believe a crocodile, I think a crocodile with wings instead of arms is not that big of a stretch, while the Tolkein/D&D style dragon is more of a 20th century phenomenon (especially with how widespread and specific it is).

SlothfulCobra posted:

This is a time before zoos or photographs. There are definitely a lot of animals out there, but you have to be extremely well-traveled to see most of them.

It was before the word 'zoo' was coined and before publicly accessible zoos - there were menageries maintained by royalty and other rich people going back at least to BCs, but they weren't something most people would have access to.

I think the lack of photographs is another major part. In the 20th century, if someone says 'there's really a dragon/duck-billed platypus', one of them can produce a National Geographic photo spread of the creature and the other can't. Before widespread photography, both of them could produce a description or drawing (or woodcut, or carving, etc.) of one and they'd both look equally realistic, especially before highly realistic art styles took off. It's obviously not impossible to fake a photograph, but it's a lot harder to do and has to be deliberate. When all of your knowledge of lions, giraffes, alligators, elephants, and so on come from descriptions and artistic interpretation, I don't see why a dragon (that's basically 'one of these, but with wings') would warrant extra skepticism.

# ? Oct 8, 2023 19:35

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

I think it went the other way sometimes, too. Aren't giraffes called "kirin" in Japanese (and maybe the equivalent in Chinese?) because once they finally got around India and caught a few and brought them back to China, they responded: 'well, this kind of looks like the legendary animal, obviously the same thing.'

# ? Oct 8, 2023 19:53

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Yeah, the line between a real creature and a made-up creature is a matter of terminology to an extent. Marco Polo talks about unicorns, but makes it clear that they're very different from the popular European conception of unicorns (he's referring to a rhinoceros). In later centuries, some people would look at a narwhal and say "it turns out unicorns are actually aquatic." Marco Polo also talked about salamanders, but noted that they are actually minerals rather than animals (i.e., asbestos), which is a bit of a terminological stretch. On the other hand, the creature we call a salamander today lacks the asbestos-like fire resistance of the legendary salamander.

# ? Oct 8, 2023 20:03

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

The modern dragon image was well established before Tolkien though I�m sure he�s in large part responsible for popularizing it. But he himself is going off well established precedents like in Spenser for example

Faerie Queene I, Canto XI.viii-xiv posted:

By this the dreadfull Beast drew nigh to hand,
Halfe flying, and halfe footing in his haste,
That with his largenesse measured much land,
And made wide shadow under his huge wast,
As mountaine doth the valley overcast.
Approching nigh, he reared high afore
His body monstrous, horrible, and vaste,
Which to increase his wondrous greatnesse more,
Was swoln with wrath, and poyson, and with bloudy gore.

And over, all with brasen scales was armd,
Like plated coate of steele, so couched neare,
That nought mote perce, ne might his corse be harmd
With dint of sword, nor push of pointed speare;
Which, as an Eagle, seeing pray appeare,
His aery plumes doth rouze, full rudely dight;
So shaked he, that horrour was to heare,
For as the clashing of an Armour bright,
Such noyse his rouzed scales did send unto the knight.

His flaggy wings when forth he did display,
Were like two sayles, in which the hollow wynd
Is gathered full, and worketh speedy way:
And eke the pennes, that did his pineons bynd,
Were like mayne-yards, with flying canvas lynd;
With which whenas him list the ayre to beat,
And there by force unwonted passage find,
The cloudes before him fled for terrour great,
And all the heavens stood still amazed with his threat.

His huge long tayle wound up in hundred foldes,
Does overspred his long bras-scaly backe,
Whose wreathed boughts when ever he unfoldes,
And thicke entangled knots adown does slacke,
Bespotted as with shields of red and blacke,
It sweepeth all the land behind him farre,
And of three furlongs does but litle lacke;
And at the point two stings in-fixed arre,
Both deadly sharpe, that sharpest steele exceeden farre.

But stings and sharpest steele did far exceed
The sharpnesse of his cruell rending clawes;
Dead was it sure, as sure as death in deed,
What ever thing does touch his ravenous pawes,
Or what within his reach he ever drawes.
But his most hideous head my toung to tell
Does tremble: for his deepe devouring jawes
Wide gaped, like the griesly mouth of hell,
Through which into his darke abisse all ravin fell.

And that more wondrous was, in either jaw
Three ranckes of yron teeth enraunged were,
In which yet trickling blood, and gobbets raw
Of late devoured bodies did appeare,
That sight thereof bred cold congealed feare:
Which to increase, and as atonce to kill,
A cloud of smoothering smoke and sulphure seare,
Out of his stinking gorge forth steemed still,
That all the ayre about with smoke and stench did fill.

His blazing eyes, like two bright shining shields,
Did burne with wrath, and sparkled living fyre:
As two broad Beacons, set in open fields,
Send forth their flames far off to every shyre,
And warning give, that enemies conspyre
With fire and sword the region to invade;
So flam'd his eyne with rage and rancorous yre:
But farre within, as in a hollow glade,
Those glaring lampes were set, that made a dreadfull shade.

# ? Oct 8, 2023 20:13

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Sure, but Spenser was writing allegorical fantasy, and despite his attempt to write like Chaucer, he was actually a contemporary of Shakespeare. He's not a good source for what medieval people believed about dragons.

# ? Oct 8, 2023 20:20

Zopotantor: Feb 24, 2013; ...und ist er drin dann lassen wir ihn niemals wieder raus...

Star Man posted:

I've managed to fool a few people into thinking jackalopes are in fact real.

Unfortunately :nms:

they are

# ? Oct 8, 2023 20:33

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Silver2195 posted:

Sure, but Spenser was writing allegorical fantasy, and despite his attempt to write like Chaucer, he was actually a contemporary of Shakespeare. He's not a good source for what medieval people believed about dragons.

I didn�t say he was medieval, rather modern. Just responding to the notion that the image of the modern dragon is a 20th century thing. Spenser may not have �believed� in dragons but this is not really relevant. Regardless of their thoughts on its physical description, medievals would certainly have understood the point Spenser�s dragon was trying to make, namely that Satan is terrifying.

# ? Oct 8, 2023 20:41

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

I suspect tolkien was very specifically drawing on the volsungasaga.

# ? Oct 8, 2023 20:53

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

I suspect tolkien was very specifically drawing on the volsungasaga.

For Smaug? Most directly, William Morris� version of Fafnir + some elements of the Beowulf dragon�but also as a slight send-up of his own previous take on this concept, the Book of Lost Tales� Glorund(=the Silmarillion�s Glaurung)

# ? Oct 8, 2023 21:16

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Silver2195 posted:

Sure, but Spenser was writing allegorical fantasy, and despite his attempt to write like Chaucer, he was actually a contemporary of Shakespeare. He's not a good source for what medieval people believed about dragons.

But consider that Spenser was writing heavily in imitation of medieval representation, to the extent that he was using archaic grammar and word forms to hit that vibe. There's a ton of stylistic overlap between TFQ and medieval romance.

# ? Oct 9, 2023 01:16

Dopilsya: Apr 3, 2010

BrainDance posted:

I got a question, I don't know if it has an answer but I'm still curious.

I'm reading through a bunch of the biblical apocrypha. And I get to the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew. It's a Latin medieval text (somewhere between 600 and 800ce I think) that's all goofy and has 2 year old Jesus speaking all fluently and sophisticated it's great.

It mentions dragons, as follows.

So, this is weird to me. I might be giving medieval people too much of the benefit of the doubt, but this book seems to be asking to be taken literally. I would have assumed by then people had realized dragons were mythical? Since no one in the Roman empire for example had ever really seen one first hand I'd imagine. And it's just so bizarre that they're just walking along and like out of just any old cave 3 dragons pop out. I just imagine, if I was in that situation and time and I read that I'd think "I've passed by hundreds of caves, never seen a dragon pop out."

So I guess what I'm asking, dragons, or "dracones" like used in the Latin here, what did that actually mean to a medieval person? Did they just believe in it and take it literally? Is it referring to something else? What are the dragons here and why did this author think "yeah dragons that works, right alongside lions and stuff"? Is the author just stretching what's believable hoping people who previously didn't believe in dragons now suddenly consider it for the sake of fulfilling that prophecy? When did people stop literally believing in dragons? What are dragons just generally to medieval people?

I think I'm operating on the assumption that all the dragon stuff from the middle ages was symbolic or just known as myth, or from ancient times. Though I'm wondering if I'm wrong.

Walking by a cave and 3 dragons pop out? Totally believable, gotta roll a 99 on the random encounter table sometime.

The finest cartographers have clearly marked out where the dragons are at, have you just never seen a map before? Really telling on yourself about your ignorance here bro.

On a more serious note, in Revelation 20, Satan is explicitly described as a dragon. I'm not sure what conclusions you might draw from that, but surely the author would be familiar with that usage.

Dopilsya fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Oct 9, 2023

# ? Oct 9, 2023 01:36

Comstar: Apr 20, 2007; Are you happy now?

Dopilsya posted:

On a more serious note, in Revelation 20, Satan is explicitly described as a dragon. I'm not sure what conclusions you might draw from that, but surely the author would be familiar with that usage.

Yes but nowadays we just call them Billionaires.

Who have less money than Smaug.

# ? Oct 9, 2023 09:25

FreudianSlippers: Apr 12, 2010; Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

FreudianSlippers posted:

Some good Dragons

Also this cameo by Jordan Peterson

Taken from A Fantastic Bestiary: Beasts and Monsters in Myth and Folklore by Ernst og Johanna Lehner (1969)

On the more Cryptid side of things

# ? Oct 9, 2023 12:08

BrainDance: May 8, 2007; Disco all night long!

What is the feature of dragons that distinguishes them then from non-dragon large lizards?

It doesn't seem like it's wings because I guess not all dragons fly.

I don't think all dragons breathe fire.

Like if you gave a komodo dragon to a medieval European person wouldn't that just actually be a dragon to them?

# ? Oct 9, 2023 12:35

FreudianSlippers: Apr 12, 2010; Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

A dragon is just a really big snake.

Sometimes with wings.

See:
Níðhöggr
The Hydra
Satan

# ? Oct 9, 2023 12:44

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Also sometimes, a somewhat big cat.

See:

Tatzelwurm

# ? Oct 9, 2023 13:25

Kylaer: Aug 4, 2007; I'm SURE walking around in a respirator at all times in an (even more) OPEN BIDENing society is definitely not a recipe for disaster and anyone that's not cool with getting harassed by CHUDs are cave dwellers. I've got good brain!

You could very plausibly taxidermy (is that a verb?) a crocodile head from Egypt and show it off in Europe as a dragon head. Nile crocodiles can get real big and scary.

# ? Oct 9, 2023 13:28

Cessna: Feb 20, 2013; KHABAHBLOOOM

Lead out in cuffs posted:

I'm just remembering when they went around asking a bunch of Americans, right around the time of the invasion, to point out Iraq on a map.

Looks like they've repeated that with North Korea, Iran and Ukraine, and every time it averages around 25% of people who can actually get it right.

https://www.boredpanda.com/people-asked-point-iran-on-map-joanna-piacenza

Anyway I'd be cautious about making assumptions about what constitutes "basic geography" to the modern person.

NGL, if someone asked me that I'd point to where I was right then on the map just to troll condescending survey takers.

# ? Oct 9, 2023 21:22

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Cessna posted:

NGL, if someone asked me that I'd point to where I was right then on the map just to troll condescending survey takers.

Yeah, some absolute malicious respondents in this particular one.

# ? Oct 9, 2023 21:28

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

that distribution looks like 'i don't know but the form requires me to pick a location; I can't answer that I have no idea' so they just click randomly

# ? Oct 9, 2023 21:32

Telsa Cola: Aug 19, 2011; No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

Me being asked to identify Baghdad and pointing to Bagdad, AZ. When I am told am incorrect I nod sagely and point to Bagdad, CA

# ? Oct 9, 2023 21:33

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Nobody knows where anything is. I've done so many map activities with students and the only ones who have the slightest clue about geography are the nerds who play Paradox games.

# ? Oct 9, 2023 21:35

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

cheetah7071 posted:

that distribution looks like 'i don't know but the form requires me to pick a location; I can't answer that I have no idea' so they just click randomly

Personally, I think Iran is at Point Nemo

Grand Fromage posted:

Nobody knows where anything is. I've done so many map activities with students and the only ones who have the slightest clue about geography are the nerds who play Paradox games.

Yeah but no one thinks Iran is in the ocean or in America

# ? Oct 9, 2023 21:35

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

Grand Fromage posted:

Nobody knows where anything is. I've done so many map activities with students and the only ones who have the slightest clue about geography are the nerds who play Paradox games.

hello, did you teach me?

also, taking a train to Italy tomorrow and I swear to relish every single dick drawn between Ostia and Pompeii

and the other stuff but being real, the dicks mostly

# ? Oct 9, 2023 22:00

Hippocrass: Aug 18, 2015; That third panel of the first comic just makes it. It's still funny if you remove it, but that panel included just makes it top tier.

Maybe just barely thread adjacent, but David Mitchell wrote a book about the medieval kings of England.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqwMLCh8RnE

This is really good video BTW. Mitchell seems to have done tons of research.

# ? Oct 9, 2023 22:55

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Cessna posted:

NGL, if someone asked me that I'd point to where I was right then on the map just to troll condescending survey takers.

Yeah have you seen the survey that shows 10% of teenagers do every drug, have sex ten times a day and are seven foot tall quadruple amputees who weigh 999 pounds

# ? Oct 9, 2023 23:11

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# ? May 10, 2024 02:14

EricBauman: Nov 30, 2005; DOLF IS RECHTVAARDIG

zoux posted:

Yeah, some absolute malicious respondents in this particular one.

Weird how many of the us guesses are concentrated around Louisiana/east Texas/Oklahoma ish

# ? Oct 9, 2023 23:22

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