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miniscule12 posted:I am extremely confident in the future liberation of Palestine simply because the goal is to make settling and colonizing untenable, not to win a ground war. Yeah, when slavery was going on in the USA, liberal, moderate opinion on the matter was very much: "Of course slavery is wrong! But you can't go encouraging slave revolts! You can't go round burning plantations! That sort of violence is never justifiable!" People like John Brown, who both thought that slavery was an abomination and acted on those beliefs were always a tiny minority. Liberals have this vague belief that history tends towards progress, and you just need to sit back and wait for injustices to naturally resolve themselves - look at all the takes we're seeing right now of people going: "Why don't the Palestinians just peacefully protest? Surely Israel would relent in the face of their moral power!" The reality is that liberation requires struggle (look at the American Revolution!) and people who are comfy enough with the status quo are always going to be distinctly uncomfortable with that struggle.
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Oct 9, 2023 08:28
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Pistol_Pete posted:Yeah, when slavery was going on in the USA, liberal, moderate opinion on the matter was very much: "Of course slavery is wrong! But you can't go encouraging slave revolts! You can't go round burning plantations! That sort of violence is never justifiable!" People like John Brown, who both thought that slavery was an abomination and acted on those beliefs were always a tiny minority. This argument amounts to "if you call yourself a revolutionary you can do whatever the gently caress you please and no one can say anything badly about you" which is a very thought-ending argument as all discussion of ethics ends up getting washed into a weird morass of 'might makes right'.
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Oct 9, 2023 08:35
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Panzeh posted:This argument amounts to "if you call yourself a revolutionary you can do whatever the gently caress you please and no one can say anything badly about you" which is a very thought-ending argument as all discussion of ethics ends up getting washed into a weird morass of 'might makes right'. Israel has killed many times more Palestinians and traumatized generations (could this trauma at a very young age possibly have something to do with the brutality we are seeing?) When Palestine is free, people who were calling for ethnic cleansing and genocide of Palestinians will say that they supported Palestinian freedom.
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Oct 9, 2023 08:40
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Adenoid Dan posted:If you're willing to ethnically cleanse Palestine after this event, imagine decades of snipers killing and maiming random civilians for laughs with their friends, blockades to "put Gaza on a diet" by allowing in fewer than the necessary calories per person, bombings of homes so frequent a majority of children have PTSD, detention of children, use of children as human shields during searches of homes by the IDF, use of white phosphorus, spying on telecom and then blackmailing known gay Palestinians into working as spies, tearing out olive trees and killing livestock under the supervision of the IDF, pouring concrete into wells... the list could keep going on. All I've been trying to say now is that Palestine is hosed and I certainly don't think they deserve it. It was pretty much how you described it, and I see it just becoming straight up trains to death camps now.
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Oct 9, 2023 08:41
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emSparkly posted:All I've been trying to say now is that Palestine is hosed and I certainly don't think they deserve it. It was pretty much how you described it, and I see it just becoming straight up trains to death camps now. But they're already in a death camp.
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Oct 9, 2023 08:43
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Gaza is 17 square miles. It's less than half the size of Disney World. Gaza City is 17 mi², Gaza is 140 mi²
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Oct 9, 2023 08:44
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Panzeh posted:This argument amounts to "if you call yourself a revolutionary you can do whatever the gently caress you please and no one can say anything badly about you" which is a very thought-ending argument as all discussion of ethics ends up getting washed into a weird morass of 'might makes right'. I think it's more that the most effective revolutionary/anti-colonial tactics tend to be vastly more brutal than we'd hope they'd be, which is particularly ethically uncomfortable when the alternative is extermination (or lesser forms of ethnic cleansing at minimum).
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Oct 9, 2023 08:44
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Alchenar posted:I think the one thing we can all agree on is that the first test of new twitter in a major global event proves it has been completely destroyed as a source of semi-reliable info. It was always a dumpster fire but the counter-disinformation efforts tended to limit the noise. The last few days have been an absolute tidal wave of bullshit made up by clout chasers. I consider @OSINTtechnical to be one of the more reliable accounts (unlike, say, @sentdefender). That said, it's certainly prudent to be skeptical at this time unless we get further confirmation.
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Oct 9, 2023 08:53
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Darth Walrus posted:I think it's more that the most effective revolutionary/anti-colonial tactics tend to be vastly more brutal than we'd hope they'd be, which is particularly ethically uncomfortable when the alternative is extermination (or lesser forms of ethnic cleansing at minimum). How effective is it really? I firmly believe we're past the point where armed revolt is a viable approach anywhere for any reason. The only way anyone gets a better life at this point is if the overlords feel like giving a random handout. You can't fight oppression with violence because the oppressors have a monopoly on violence. Kill as many Israelis as you want, they're just gonna press a button and have some UAV firebomb every last square inch of Gaza til nothing but dust remains and then it's over. The same holds true for any theoretical revolutionary force opposing rule by industrialized nation (unless they have gear and funding from a foreign power). You can't fight that poo poo with AKs and IEDs. If Hamas posed even the slightest threat to Israeli occupation, they'd have already wiped the entire Palestinian population from the earth. Not saying that peace is the answer or anything, just that there is no answer. The war was lost before it started.
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Oct 9, 2023 09:03
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emSparkly posted:How effective is it really? I firmly believe we're past the point where armed revolt is a viable approach anywhere for any reason. The only way anyone gets a better life at this point is if the overlords feel like giving a random handout. You can't fight oppression with violence because the oppressors have a monopoly on violence. Kill as many Israelis as you want, they're just gonna press a button and have some UAV firebomb every last square inch of Gaza til nothing but dust remains and then it's over. The same holds true for any theoretical revolutionary force opposing rule by industrialized nation (unless they have gear and funding from a foreign power). You can't fight that poo poo with AKs and IEDs. If Hamas posed even the slightest threat to Israeli occupation, they'd have already wiped the entire Palestinian population from the earth. I mean, we've had multiple recent examples of highly advanced modern militaries proving themselves catastrophically incapable of serious counterinsurgency work. Afghanistan would be perhaps the most famous example. If this operation ends up being a successful application by Hamas to, say, Iran for foreign support, the IDF may be tested in ways it hasn't been for decades, which would severely jeopardise the security and stability that so much of the operation relies on. The heavy involvement of the civilian population in the occupation of the West Bank, for example, isn't just a war crime - it's a serious weakness when international law is entirely thrown out of the window and civilians just become highly vulnerable and easily frightened infrastructure targets.
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Oct 9, 2023 09:14
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https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-gaza-attack-10-08-23/index.htmlquote:6 hr 55 min ago Prisoners have definitely been killed, as an absolute minimum. Believing that, 'No, they wouldn't hurt any prisoners! Prisoners are way too valuable', seems to come from self-denial that a just cause is being absolutely undermined by an atrocity.
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Oct 9, 2023 09:29
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Been seeing to many videos on Reddit from that festival of civilians cowering on the ground being murdered.
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Oct 9, 2023 09:40
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Yeah a lot of the videos and pictures are brutal. Just a total civilian massacre
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Oct 9, 2023 09:46
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Yeah they shouldn't have been murdered..still, I'd be pretty pissed too if I walked ten steps away from the largest open concentration camp and immediately stumbled upon a dance party filled with careless influencer girls (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 9, 2023 10:02
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Do we have any good sources on domestic Israeli reporting on how blame is being distributed from the event? How are the different parties responding? The central element with the most "work in the joints" for some time now has been the Israeli domestic political balance.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:06
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It's a wash, pro-Bibi sources blame the leftist deep state, anti-Bibi blame him and the rest of the government
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Oct 9, 2023 10:13
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Israel has never given a gently caress about civilians and they have just been handed the perfect justification to destroy Hamas at all costs. There will not be a single building left standing in Gaza.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:17
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel has never given a gently caress about civilians and they have just been handed the perfect justification to destroy Hamas at all costs. There will not be a single building left standing in Gaza. This will just add a million people to Hamas
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Oct 9, 2023 10:19
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PT6A posted:I’m still on the pro-Palestinian side today, because I don’t think a few sick fucks doing some particularly deranged poo poo has a great bearing on the worthiness of the liberation of an entire society, any more than I think Israeli atrocities invalidate their right to a proper two-state solution with freedom and security for both states. Few sick fucks? Hamas is the elected government in Gaza. This isn't some fringe terrorist group.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:24
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emSparkly posted:How effective is it really? I firmly believe we're past the point where armed revolt is a viable approach anywhere for any reason. The only way anyone gets a better life at this point is if the overlords feel like giving a random handout. You can't fight oppression with violence because the oppressors have a monopoly on violence. Kill as many Israelis as you want, they're just gonna press a button and have some UAV firebomb every last square inch of Gaza til nothing but dust remains and then it's over. The same holds true for any theoretical revolutionary force opposing rule by industrialized nation (unless they have gear and funding from a foreign power). You can't fight that poo poo with AKs and IEDs. If Hamas posed even the slightest threat to Israeli occupation, they'd have already wiped the entire Palestinian population from the earth. Nelson Mandela successfully fought apartheid by launching a campaign of terror attacks. I think violence is never the answer, but it has demoralized a lot of occupiers throughout history.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:27
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salartarium posted:Nelson Mandela successfully fought apartheid by launching a campaign of terror attacks. I think violence is never the answer, but it has demoralized a lot of occupiers throughout history. Sinn Fein as well.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:27
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Stringent posted:Sinn Fein as well. Sinn Féin* But yeah. In fact there's so many successful examples that it seems more like the only effective way of achieving change. Voting your way out of genocidal oppression is not a thing.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:30
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This has galvanized Israel more than ever, so it has had the opposite effect so far
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Oct 9, 2023 10:30
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Collapsing Farts posted:This has galvanized Israel more than ever, so it has had the opposite effect so far It seems to have had at least SOME impact on "holy poo poo maybe being a settler is not, in fact, safe" from the perspective of the settlers which, if that is the case, would make it probably the single most effective act for the Palestinian cause we've probably ever seen, regardless of how much it's galvanized Israel
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Oct 9, 2023 10:33
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reignonyourparade posted:It seems to have had at least SOME impact on "holy poo poo maybe being a settler is not, in fact, safe" from the perspective of the settlers which, if that is the case, would make it probably the single most effective act for the Palestinian cause we've probably ever seen, regardless of how much it's galvanized Israel That depends on how you view it I guess - I'm sure many extremists see this as their only form of resistance available while many civilians don't want their families bombed in retaliation. Unfortunately for Palestine the stated response to this attack from Israel is for Israel to now enact an extermination war against Hamas which, if followed up on, can only result in the total destruction of the Gaza strip. Which, I think many would regard as a huge setback for the Palestinian cause.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:38
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Stringent posted:Sinn Fein as well.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:42
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Gunthen posted:Few sick fucks? Hamas is the elected government in Gaza. This isn't some fringe terrorist group. Dont forget, after being democratically elected in elections that Israel ran and watched over, Israel didn't like the results that Hamas won and did raids into gaza and the west bank to arrest a majority of the incoming government on terrorism charges, resulting in more militant and younger members getting put in government instead.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:44
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The IRA's tactics were not even remotely comparable to what Hamas did. They were eminently comparable, though not equivalent
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Oct 9, 2023 10:45
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reignonyourparade posted:It seems to have had at least SOME impact on "holy poo poo maybe being a settler is not, in fact, safe" from the perspective of the settlers which, if that is the case, would make it probably the single most effective act for the Palestinian cause we've probably ever seen, regardless of how much it's galvanized Israel You could equally argue that for every settler it scares off two are emboldened and radicalized to settle when they otherwise wouldn't have. I just think this sort of long term speculation two days after an event of this scale is pointless. We haven't even seen the Israeli response yet. What concerns me right now is the large, well equipped, modern army, full of rage and righteous (in their minds) wrath that is setting up to slaughter thousands of civilians that are trapped.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:48
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Zzulu posted:to now enact an extermination war against Hamas Gunthen posted:Hamas is the elected government in Gaza As much as opinion polls are a farce, doubly so when conducted in an area as contentious as Palestine, those conducted in the past year have Hamas and Fatah at roundabout the same level of support
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Oct 9, 2023 10:52
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Failed Imagineer posted:They were eminently comparable, though not equivalent
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Oct 9, 2023 10:53
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The IRA's tactics were not even remotely comparable to what Hamas did. As in IRA’s were worse, better or just fundamentally incomparable? I mean they carried out terror attacks with explosives, took hostages and of course were representatives of a people that were themselves horribly abused by the Uk. Drone_Fragger posted:Dont forget, after being democratically elected in elections that Israel ran and watched over, Israel didn't like the results that Hamas won and did raids into gaza and the west bank to arrest a majority of the incoming government on terrorism charges, resulting in more militant and younger members getting put in government instead. Also I’m pretty sure that Hamas came about in part due to an Israeli willingness to allow a hardline militant Palestinian faction to gain power so as to split the Palestinians and weaken Fatah. I believe I first heard about this in this thread (or one of its predecessor threads) and queried it as it sounded a bit conspiracy theory ish, but it was evidenced.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:53
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Is it fair to think with Saudi coming to the table there was room for relatively peaceful changes to the situation? For the longest time local Arab nations couldn’t care less about the Palestinians, if they did they’d do so much more for the refugees they took in. It was just a way to justify hating the Jews, which helped zealots keep power. Now there’s no chance because the warlords inside Hamas had no future if outside nations seriously got involved. I struggle to see this any more than a power struggle for the evil inside Palestine than a justified reaction to oppression. And their wonton cruelty is a reflection of that.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:53
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edit: I shouldn't speculate on gunman motives
Fanatic fucked around with this message at 12:09 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 10:53
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Vitamin Me posted:Yeah they shouldn't have been murdered..still, I'd be pretty pissed too if I walked ten steps away from the largest open concentration camp and immediately stumbled upon a dance party filled with careless influencer girls Yeah, I don't know how I would react if I'd spent my entire life being brutalised and traumatised, embarking on a suicide mission that I know will result in the immolation of everybody I love, and the first thing I come across is my own age peers making my suffering a venue for their hedonism. At best, attending a music festival outside one of the worst humanitarian and political injustices of our time is a deeply ghoulish and callous act; at worst, it's part of a wider cultural industry that works to normalise the suffering and killing of Palestinians. The fact that they are being held up as uniquely innocent and horrific victims, rather than being rightfully mourned in balance with all the other civilian life that has been - and will be - lost in this conflict, points to it being the latter. This is a tangent, but that whole trance rave subculture (and the tourism community that goes with it) has a lot to answer for for its history as a breeding ground for right-wing politics (and, I would argue, are responsible for a lot of deaths due to their actions during the pandemic). You can call it many things, but I don't think you can call it benign. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 9, 2023 10:58
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jesus christ
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Oct 9, 2023 10:58
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Gunthen posted:Few sick fucks? Hamas is the elected government in Gaza. This isn't some fringe terrorist group. Tell us what you think about Israeli society and its not-few sick fucks
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Oct 9, 2023 10:58
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Fanatic posted:
I haven't seen this "peace festival" claim from any domestic sources here. That seems made up.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:58
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Is it fair to think with Saudi coming to the table there was room for relatively peaceful changes to the situation? For the longest time local Arab nations couldn’t care less about the Palestinians, if they did they’d do so much more for the refugees they took in. It was just a way to justify hating the Jews, which helped zealots keep power. Now there’s no chance because the warlords inside Hamas had no future if outside nations seriously got involved. I struggle to see this any more than a power struggle for the evil inside Palestine than a justified reaction to oppression. And their wonton cruelty is a reflection of that. Nope, Saudi Arabia was offering no support whatsoever to Palestine or Palestinians - this was purely about getting Israel as a military sugar-daddy in light of the catastrophic failure of the Yemen campaign and their escalating tensions with Iran. If anything, it would have escalated the general atmosphere of hopelessness within Palestine.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:00
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I know these are minor details but this thread has a few recurring misconceptions about the geography of the Gaza strip and where the events actually took place, it would be cool and good to just open a map and maybe look at where things are I think maybe, just saying. The rave was 5kms away from the border, it wasn't 10 meters away. And while we're at it the Gaza Strip is a region that has multiple different cities within it, it's small and dense but it's not like just a continuous block of multistory buildings.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:04
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