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Viller posted:Collateral damage is the side effect to the response to arming 700+ civilians. Any country on the planet would do the same. Hamas is responsible, no one else. What is the response to bombing a bunch of apartment buildings containing innocent people? Also how exactly is the IDF not responsible for the building it bombs? Are the planes on some sort of autopilot?
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Oct 10, 2023 00:13
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Typo posted:seem like Palestanians outside the political class will be the biggest loser of this round of I/P conflict Agreed. Israel should end the genocide and apartheid to help ensure the lives of all Palestinians. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 00:14
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Judgy Fucker posted:Agreed. Israel should end the genocide and apartheid to help ensure the lives of all Palestinians. Seems sensible to me.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:16
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Gripweed posted:But yeah, Hamas can't stop. As long as the Palestinians are oppressed by Israel, basic human dignity requires that they fight back. The only hope is that they can somehow force Israel to negotiate in something like good faith, which seems unlikely. Of course this is the essence of the human condition. As long as Hamas exists Israel can not stop. And for every Israeli Hamas kills; Israel will kill two or more Palestinians and for every Palestinian killed Hamas will kill two or more Israelis and for every Israeli killed, Israel will kill two or more Palestinians, and for every Palestinian killed Hamas will kill two or more Israelis.... And on and on it will go until everyone is dead. Because that is how responding to everything with violence works and it's how saying you must respond to being oppressed by killing or with violence ends up circling round and around again creating greater and greater atrocities. As long as this cycle continues Israel will never, ever give Palestine basic human dignity. As long as this cycle continues Palestine will never ever advance beyond where they are now as a country or a people. They'll kill some Israelis now and again then the Israeli's will kill some Palestinians, then the Palestinians will kill some Israelis and there will never be any meaningfull progress in any way shape or form for Palestine. That's the reality of the situation.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:21
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nogoodpeople posted:Of course this is the essence of the human condition. As long as Hamas exists Israel can not stop. And for every Israeli Hamas kills; Israel will kill two or more Palestinians and for every Palestinian killed Hamas will kill two or more Israelis and for every Israeli killed, Israel will kill two or more Palestinians, and for every Palestinian killed Hamas will kill two or more Israelis.... Israel hardly stopped when Hamas didn't exist
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Oct 10, 2023 00:23
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GABA ghoul posted:Is Egypt going to provide diesel and food if the humanitarian situation gets bad enough? No one is going to let Gazans literally die of starvation or thirst, but yeah electricity and diesel could get cut to near-zero for sure. Recoome posted:I also note that there was a pro-Palestine rally in Sydney, Australia but it has absolutely been condemned across the political spectrum and for Sydney, extremely small. It’s been brutal though for my Jewish/Israeli friends, who either have family involved or are on the end of some pretty shithouse commentary - a friend at uni who was wearing her Star of David copped some antisemitic comments from the local Socialist Alternative crew. Reporting on NYT and elsewhere of "pro-Palestinian rallies" in the Arab world is also pretty much bullshit. "A few hundred people" protesting in favor of Hamas in a city like Beirut or Manama is irrelevantly small, or like this protest on the Lebanon-Israel border that the CNN posted, it is like 15 loving guys ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvGSkUktwVk ). The vast majority of Arabs don't like Israelis but you'd have to be pretty hosed up to protest in favor of them yesterday. Maybe you can protest in favor of Gaza tomorrow or Friday, but sure as poo poo not yesterday.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:23
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nogoodpeople posted:Of course this is the essence of the human condition. As long as Hamas exists Israel can not stop. And for every Israeli Hamas kills; Israel will kill two or more Palestinians and for every Palestinian killed Hamas will kill two or more Israelis and for every Israeli killed, Israel will kill two or more Palestinians, and for every Palestinian killed Hamas will kill two or more Israelis.... Even if Hamas laid down arms and forsook violence as a political tool the apartheid and genocide would continue.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:26
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 00:27
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Recoome posted:a friend at uni who was wearing her Star of David copped some antisemitic comments from the local Socialist Alternative crew. Yikes! Did she tell you what comments they made?
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Oct 10, 2023 00:29
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nogoodpeople posted:Of course this is the essence of the human condition. As long as Hamas exists Israel can not stop. And for every Israeli Hamas kills; Israel will kill two or more Palestinians and for every Palestinian killed Hamas will kill two or more Israelis and for every Israeli killed, Israel will kill two or more Palestinians, and for every Palestinian killed Hamas will kill two or more Israelis.... This is extremely childish thinking. It's not a cycle of violence, it's not some unbreakable curse written into the fabric of reality. The Israelis have been committing horrible violence against the Palestinians for decades, and the Palestinians have been fighting back the whole time. There are lulls in violence, but it's not a cycle. Israel can stop at any moment. This is not, despite what they say, an existential struggle for them. They can grant human rights to the Palestinians whenever they want. The process would be messy, of course. Ending slavery in America was messy, stopping the holocaust was messy, ending Apartheid in South Africa was messy. But it was necessary. While Israel can stop the violence, Palestinians can't. This is an existential struggle for them. Palestinians must use every method available to them to fight for their freedom, because the only other option is to lay down and die. To just throw up your hands and call the whole thing an inescapable cycle where both parties are equally to blame is an act of pure moral cowardice.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:30
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Gripweed posted:This is extremely childish thinking. It's not a cycle of violence, it's not some unbreakable curse written into the fabric of reality. The Israelis have been committing horrible violence against the Palestinians for decades, and the Palestinians have been fighting back the whole time. There are lulls in violence, but it's not a cycle. Israel can stop at any moment. This is not, despite what they say, an existential struggle for them. They can grant human rights to the Palestinians whenever they want. The process would be messy, of course. Ending slavery in America was messy, stopping the holocaust was messy, ending Apartheid in South Africa was messy. But it was necessary. One of Hamas' stances is that Israel needs to cease to exist as a state/people and all of Israel/Palestine should become Palestinian land again under Islamic rule. How exactly is that stance merely a "fight for freedom"? If Hamas was stating their goal was full independence and sovereignty alongside Israel that would be one thing, but their stance is literally the entire erasure of the state they have are currently at war with. Israel clearly has had the upper hand for the last few decades, and is guilty of numerous abuses, and its leadership since the 2000 Camp David Accords has forsaken any two-state solution, but pretending Hamas is only interested in independence and non-interference from Israel is incredibly biased. Crazy Joe Wilson fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 00:37
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https://x.com/4noura/status/1711464442087522747?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Israel's been bombing the Rafah border crossing on the Egyptian border to make absolutely, 100% certain that Gaza is sealed off.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:40
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 00:45
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:One of Hamas' stances is that Israel needs to cease to exist as a state/people and all of Israel/Palestine should become Palestinian land again under Islamic rule. How exactly is that stance merely a "fight for freedom"? If Hamas was stating their goal was full independence and sovereignty alongside Israel that would be one thing, but their stance is literally the entire erasure of the state they have are currently at war with. Israel seems to agree that Israel's existence is mutually exclusive with Palestinians having human rights. So fair point they are operating out of the same playbook there. But really, this kind of hand wringing over rhetoric is just silly. As I said, it's an existential crisis for the Palestinians. If Israel suddenly started ending the oppression and making concessions, them I'm sure the rhetoric would cool down. But you can hardly get all high and mighty at Hamas for accepting the position put forth by Israel's actions that mutual existence is impossible.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:46
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Gripweed posted:Israel seems to agree that Israel's existence is mutually exclusive with Palestinians having human rights.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:47
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Xander77 posted:20% of Israel's citizens are Palestinian. Yeah, and I bet they'd like a state where they had the same rights as everybody else more than what they get with Israel.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:48
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at what point do the lawyers get to officially say War Crimes or whatever, like, what has to happen
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Oct 10, 2023 00:50
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Gripweed posted:While Israel can stop the violence, Palestinians can't. This is an existential struggle for them. Palestinians must use every method available to them to fight for their freedom, because the only other option is to lay down and die. I wouldn't be so sure of that Palestanian irredentism is a thing  there might be something to the cycle of violence theory after all Typo fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 00:51
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Mia Wasikowska posted:at what point do the lawyers get to officially say War Crimes or whatever, like, what has to happen When one side actually full on wins, their lawyers get to say the other side's war crimes happened. An actual proper settlement MAY even include the worst of the worst getting hit on both sides.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:52
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Mia Wasikowska posted:at what point do the lawyers get to officially say War Crimes or whatever, like, what has to happen In a meaningful "the ICC gets involved" way? When western hegemony decides to support Palestine over Israel.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:53
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Gripweed posted:Israel seems to agree that Israel's existence is mutually exclusive with Palestinians having human rights. So fair point they are operating out of the same playbook there. But really, this kind of hand wringing over rhetoric is just silly. As I said, it's an existential crisis for the Palestinians. If Israel suddenly started ending the oppression and making concessions, them I'm sure the rhetoric would cool down. But you can hardly get all high and mighty at Hamas for accepting the position put forth by Israel's actions that mutual existence is impossible. Israel sees this conflict as an existential crisis too - the antecedents of the current conflict and the militarization of the state didn’t happen by chance. Israel sees itself surrounded by enemies.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:54
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Judgy Fucker posted:Even if Hamas laid down arms and forsook violence as a political tool the apartheid and genocide would continue. And there current actions sure are slowing down and putting a stop to said apartheid and genocide correct? Gripweed posted:This is extremely childish thinking. It's not a cycle of violence, it's not some unbreakable curse written into the fabric of reality. The Israelis have been committing horrible violence against the Palestinians for decades, and the Palestinians have been fighting back the whole time. There are lulls in violence, but it's not a cycle. Israel can stop at any moment. This is not, despite what they say, an existential struggle for them. They can grant human rights to the Palestinians whenever they want. The process would be messy, of course. Ending slavery in America was messy, stopping the holocaust was messy, ending Apartheid in South Africa was messy. But it was necessary. I think extremely childish thinking is to think somehow your conflict is special or not a cycle of violence, just because you want it not to be a cycle of violence. I am reminded of the phrase "COVID is not over because you want it to be over." Do you think the IRA didn't have the same thing to say of the Troubles? Or the FARC of the Colombian Civil Conflict? Or Argentina of the Malvinas War? The Israel-Palestine conflict is not special. I think it's very western-centric to pretend it is, when there are countless other conflicts over the course of history with similar events. Be it Darfur, the Armenian Genocide, the situation with the Kurdish population of Turkey/Iraq/Iran, or any other comparable event. gently caress even the actual loving Ethnic war going on in Ethiopia with the Tigray population; which we have zero threads or discussions about. Do you think Israel/Palestine is the first time a group of people have invaded the region of the world and replaced the citizens of said region violently? Do you think it's the first example of ethnic cleansing or ethnic tensions? Human history is full of genocides, ethnic cleansing, ethnic tensions, cycles of violence, and mass murder. Why do you think this conflict is so special and gets to be exempted from the frameworks of violence? Just because you want this to not be a cycle of violence, doesn't mean it's not a cycle of violence. The very fact that you say "The Israelis have been committing horrible violence against the Palestinians for decades, and the Palestinians have been fighting back the whole time" demonstrates the exact cyclical nature of this conflict. A back and forth. You want to focus on WHO started it. You want to focus on the immense atrocities of Israel, which undoubtedly have been atrocious. But here's a bit of news for you: you will never achieve peace in any conflict by focusing on who started it. You will never achieve a solution to a cycle of violence by focusing on who committed the greatest atrocity. You will never solve anything by focusing on grudges, on past events, on who killed who or when, or any of that. Those are things that can be used to understand a conflict, and to overcome and ensure they don't happen again. But they won't solve or put a end to violence or war. They won't put an end to attrocities. Does Israel want to destroy Palestine? Yes. Undoubtedly. And HAMAS is making it easier for them to do so. Would Palestine stepping down from defense or attacking Israel immediately stop Genocide or Apartheid? Most certainly not. That's extremely unlikely. Will continuing to attack or defend against Israel in the manner the Palestinians have done so far somehow de-escalate or stop the current trend or process that is ongoing? The current ceaseless ever intensifying cycle of violence? No way in hell. It is just accelerating it. If you are willing to resist and fight back until everyone around you, and on your side, is completely dead, that's your absolute right to do so. But you can't for a second pretend that's somehow going to improve the situation for anyone but your enemy. You can't pretend it's going to bring about peace or stop any violence. It's just going to continue escalating it.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:57
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Gripweed posted:Israel seems to agree that Israel's existence is mutually exclusive with Palestinians having human rights. So fair point they are operating out of the same playbook there. But really, this kind of hand wringing over rhetoric is just silly. As I said, it's an existential crisis for the Palestinians. If Israel suddenly started ending the oppression and making concessions, them I'm sure the rhetoric would cool down. But you can hardly get all high and mighty at Hamas for accepting the position put forth by Israel's actions that mutual existence is impossible. That stance goes back to 1948 with the original two-state plan of the U.N. though among all the states that attacked Israel when it was literally a state 600,000, many of them Holocaust survivors. It's not like Hamas or other Arab states suddenly started denying Israel's right to exist only after Israel gained the upper hand post-1967 (And yes I know Hamas didn't exist back in 1948, the point is the stance that Israel is illegitimate and should totally be dismantled/destroyed is a belief held by the neighbors of said country going back to the very beginning of its modern history). None of this justifies illegal actions or human rights abuses committed by the Israeli state, but painting Hamas as just fighting for freedom is incredibly disingenuous. Crazy Joe Wilson fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 00:58
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 00:58
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Xander77 posted:20% of Israel's citizens are Palestinian. And are discriminated against.
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Oct 10, 2023 00:59
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nogoodpeople posted:And there current actions sure are slowing down and putting a stop to said apartheid and genocide correct? What is the appropriate response, in your opinion, to the apartheid and genocide?
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Oct 10, 2023 01:01
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deoju posted:I was curious about the chants outside the Sydney Opera House, so I looked up some articles. I found the following: Seems pretty tame compared to the things said in this video by Israelis, years before the latest round of violence: https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120 Guessing these interviewees' views would be even more extreme today.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:02
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Mischievous Mink posted:Yeah, and I bet they'd like a state where they had the same rights as everybody else more than what they get with Israel. Palestinians in Israel do have the same rights as everybody else. It's non-citizens in the occupied territories that don't. About 20% of voters in Israel are Arab and they have freedom of movement and citizenship. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 01:04
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Typo posted:I wouldn't be so sure of that tbh it's interesting to me that the palestinians most hosed by the status quo are the most in favor of ending the war asap
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Oct 10, 2023 01:05
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B B posted:Seems pretty tame compared to the things said in this video by Israelis, years before the latest round of violence: Question: what do you think is an appropriate consequence for the people in this video espousing horrible views? Or for the videos upthread? Death? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 01:05
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Mischievous Mink posted:Yeah, and I bet they'd like a state where they had the same rights as everybody else more than what they get with Israel. Gumball Gumption posted:And are discriminated against. ... Anyways, the brave freedom fighters also killed a whole bunch of Bedouins and Israeli Arabs this Saturday. Met a few survivors and relatives at Soroka (the biggest hospital in southern Israel). They were (to say the least) not big fans. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 01:05
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nogoodpeople posted:And there current actions sure are slowing down and putting a stop to said apartheid and genocide correct? Oh no, to be clear, I think the "cycle of violence" framework is almost always extremely childish and dumb. There's pretty much always an aggressor and an aggrieved party reacting to that aggression. The onus is on the aggressor to stop aggressing, not the aggrieved party to simply stop fighting back and accept it.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:07
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Judgy Fucker posted:What is the appropriate response, in your opinion, to the apartheid and genocide? I would say committing attacks against and kidnapping innocent civilians from other countries certainly isn't one of them. This historically didn't end well for the Shining Path or the FARC. But the question isn't "What is the appropriate response" Who give a loving about what is appropriate. Israel certainly doesn't and neither do the Palestinians. The question should be "What works in stopping apartheid and genocide?" Well what the Palestinians are doing has been failing to do that for the better part of 50 years. So they better learn some new strategies. That's realpolitik 101. Gripweed posted:Oh no, to be clear, I think the "cycle of violence" framework is almost always extremely childish and dumb. There's pretty much always an aggressor and an aggrieved party reacting to that aggression. The onus is on the aggressor to stop aggressing, not the aggrieved party to simply stop fighting back and accept it. In the eyes of everyone they are the one being aggressed against and their opposition is always the aggressor. There is no point on focusing on who the aggressor is if you can not win the conflict in the first place. This is just a repetition of the "rear end-principal" all human beings act like stubborn asses and will refuse to accept that they must compromise ever; even in a conflict they did not start. nogoodpeople fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 01:07
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Palestinians in Israel do have the same rights as everybody else. It's non-citizens in the occupied territories that don't. About 20% of voters in Israel are Arab. not quite, they routinely get screwed with in discrimination and the occasional land purchase and so on
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Oct 10, 2023 01:07
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Gripweed posted:Oh no, to be clear, I think the "cycle of violence" framework is almost always extremely childish and dumb. There's pretty much always an aggressor and an aggrieved party reacting to that aggression. The onus is on the aggressor to stop aggressing, not the aggrieved party to simply stop fighting back and accept it. the jewish people have historically being an oppressed minority until a group of them got their own state and guns and army which made them not oppressed anymore, at which point they quickly used said weapons to oppress the Palestanians. All the whole using the holocaust to justify their actions. human beings are lovely like that
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Oct 10, 2023 01:11
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Viller posted:Collateral damage is the side effect to the response to arming 700+ civilians. Any country on the planet would do the same. Hamas is responsible, no one else. The civilians in Gaza aren't collateral damage. They are the intended targets.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:12
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nogoodpeople posted:I would say committing attacks against and kidnapping innocent civilians from other countries certainly isn't one of them. This historically didn't end well for the Shining Path or the FARC. How convenient that this only benefits the stronger of the groups.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:13
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 01:13
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:One of Hamas' stances is that Israel needs to cease to exist as a state/people and all of Israel/Palestine should become Palestinian land again under Islamic rule. How exactly is that stance merely a "fight for freedom"? If Hamas was stating their goal was full independence and sovereignty alongside Israel that would be one thing, but their stance is literally the entire erasure of the state they have are currently at war with. The Israeli stance since 1948 has been that Palestinians need to cease to exist as a people and that all of Israel/Palestine should become Israeli land under Jewish rule. Moreover, Israel continues to act to make that stance reality to this very day, and they've made quite a bit of progress in it since they possess far more military power than Hamas ever has. In any case, Hamas' goal for about two decades now has been full independence and sovereignty alongside Israel. Ever since they turned to electoralism in the mid-00s, they've been telling any diplomat who'll listen that they're willing to settle for an independent Palestinian state along the 1967 borders. nogoodpeople posted:And there current actions sure are slowing down and putting a stop to said apartheid and genocide correct? If there's literally nothing they can do to stop the apartheid and genocide, are they obligated to do nothing but roll over and die? There's plenty of people who would prefer to struggle against their tormentor to the end, even if it's ultimately futile. I think the "cycle of violence" talk is indeed childish. It's a phrase that applies to interpersonal conflicts, and usually when people cite it in international conflicts it's a sign of a positively cartoonish view of the conflict, a total obliteration of nuance. That leads to things like this, where you are arguing in all seriousness that the victims of a genocide need to take the lead in laying down their arms and stop all resistance to the genocide if they want to stop being genocided. I agree that "who started it" isn't particularly important after more than half a century of conflict, but "who can finish it" is a very important question. Yes, one side needs to unilaterally de-escalate...and that side should always be the more powerful one, the one that's able to inflict far more damage and the one that's best able to defend itself. Israel, which is in a position of overwhelming military superiority and is engaged in an active campaign of inflicting intentional military on the entire population of Gaza at all times, is the side that needs to take the lead in unilateral de-escalation and forgiveness.
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Oct 10, 2023 01:14
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Upgrade posted:Question: what do you think is an appropriate consequence for the people in this video espousing horrible views? Or for the videos upthread? Death? What the gently caress is this post?
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Oct 10, 2023 01:17
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