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shades of blue posted:The but has nothing to do with whataboutism. Hamas was supported and became the dominant party within Palestine as a result of Israeli action. That is the history of Hamas. When you leave out how they won the elections, ie, throwing members of the fatah party off roofs, I feel like you don't really give them credit for what they are. Even as the ruling party they still went after the fatah: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/ Israel created them and so earned this, is again, not a new platform, it just becomes harder to be a tenable one in the face of recorded slaughter (just my opinion on that last part)
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Oct 11, 2023 16:58
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skipmyseashells posted:That German raver lady is still alive, that alone shows Hamas has infinitely more restraint than the dogs of the IDF This is so far from confirmed, that it shouldn't be phrased that way. https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/ham...70-469989fe36e7 quote:According to her mother, the young woman is still alive. She has a serious head injury and is in a critical situation, the mother said in the video message. »You shouldn't argue about questions of jurisdiction. We have to act quickly to get Shani out of the Gaza Strip .” Spiegel reporting on it is better than Bilde reporting on it, (I think?), but the wording is still along the lines of "... mother claims."
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Oct 11, 2023 17:01
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Maera Sior posted:Yoinking this from IVFW, because it's behind a paywall at https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-security-failure.html Thank you for your response, and thank you to others who responded but I should be more clear. I'm aware of the state-level failures of the IDF that contributed to Hamas success, but I figure a local cop would pick up an M-16 or something. There had to be tons of IDF vets/reservists just in the civilian population. Were Israelis in the area just completely unaware it was happening? How long did the active operations against civilians go on? The raid on the rave, sure no one there is going to be carrying an assault rifle, but some of these kibbutz look pretty heavily fortified.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:04
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Chillmatic posted:Source any of your claims. Neurolimal posted:Lebanon is allegedly sending drones into Israel; Northern Israel is being warned to shelter in place. Drones: https://twitter.com/AJArabic/status/1712123731370201333 Sheltering: https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1712128397046935986 (There's other sources for this but this guy is aggressively pro-Israel and so you can trust him when he's posting bad news for them despite being an OSINT ghoul, also I'm not keen on doing extra work for the guy shadowing me asking for citations) quote:Saudi Arabia and Egypt are sending out some state media figures to denounce Israel & see where it goes Egypt: https://twitter.com/AJArabic/status/1712083379850469697 Saudi Arabia: https://twitter.com/kdriyadh/status/1712064965027221863 quote:Saudi internet is apparently not censoring or going after people making GBS threads on Israel anymore This one's reliant on a fellow goon from Saudi Arabia: quote:Something interesting is happening on arab social media from my anecdotal observation, there is a massive realization happening amongst all classes that the west are actually evil and satanically racist and that all compromises mean nothing, there is a genuine wave of disgust with what the west is up to and a realization (even from the liberal weak kneed types) that the west will never grant them any form of humanity no matter how much they compromise. quote:Egypt publicly defying Israel with-regards-to the border. I believe this was already posted in the thread. Syrian rockets I can't seem to find, you can enjoy that one. For future reference I'm going to assume everyone's doing their homework or reading the thread that's posting news updates. If it's any consolation buddy, Israel seems undeterred: quote:Uprooting Hamas will deter fighters everywhere: Israel intelligence minister You can return to getting excited about Gaza getting razed off the map. Chillmatic posted:Too bad there won't be anyone left alive to print this on their travel brochures. Chillmatic posted:It won't save his position but Gaza will cease to exist either way. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 17:04
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I'm gonna be real, you are either naive beyond belief or playing dumb if you genuinely think Israel is targeting hamas specifically in Gaza instead of just engaging in mass retribution (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 11, 2023 17:06
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zer0spunk posted:No one cares right now, to be brutally honest with you. The focus is on clearing any remaining threats in the villages they razed and then going in to dismantle the organization that attacked them. I don't even disagree as far as immediate steps go. Even if you were to argue that Israel is wholly responsible for engineering the conditions that brought Hamas to this point, it's not like Israel has a time machine to go back and undo its actions. They can only deal with the situation as it exists now, and in practical terms there isn't a country on earth that wouldn't deal with an attack of this scale with military force; possibly slightly more or slightly less discriminately, but basically the same. However much culpability you assign to Israel for prior conditions won't change the fact that this is the only realistic response. But even if Israel kills every single member of Hamas there will still be 4-5 million stateless Palestinians within the borders Israel occupies. Fully one in three of the human beings under Israeli occupation are noncitizens. This is going to keep happening in varying degrees until Israel reckons with that. You say the country wants this settled? There are two ways to settle this. Either start talking about some kind of citizenship status for several million Palestinians (which is, if not necessarily what Hamas ultimately wants, something Hamas would happily take as a successful concession--meaning that the attack actually accomplished something useful and valuable that Israel was not giving Palestinians peacefully) or start digging several million graves. Anything else is just a slower road to one of those two outcomes, with more attacks like this in the meantime. the holy poopacy fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 17:11
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zoux posted:My friend asked me this question and I didn't have a good answer: Reporting on this sounds like Hamas just waltzed in and were able to massacre people with no resistance. He asked me "I thought Israel was one of the most armed countries in the world" and "Where were the police" and I didn't know. I haven't been following the details on this that closely because fog-of-war reporting is bad and also this is all so depressing, so I apologize if this has been addressed before, but was there civilian or police resistance in the Israeli towns where this happened? There's at least one other village, Ein Habsor, which successfully repealed an attack. Either the others didn't expect to need a self defense force. Or they had them but we're defeated by the attackers. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 17:12
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Maera Sior posted:Yoinking this from IVFW, because it's behind a paywall at https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-security-failure.html Not to mention the several obvious design flaws built into the system. No hardened backups for the mission critical comms? Your lowest bidder had you blind and deaf, what are the billions we send over there even going to? Incredible self-own there.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:13
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Neurolimal posted:Lebanon is allegedly sending drones into Israel; Northern Israel is being warned to shelter in place. The conventional military power, especially in its disproportionately sized and equipped Air Force, that Israel has is enough to absolutely cripple its neighbors in a conventional war. Not even counting that the neighboring countries generally haven't been extremely sensitive to the Palestinian plight, they will extremely likely not wish to sign their own death warrant in by going to have the sixth or seventh round of an Arab-Israeli War that has never not ended in them being decimated in warfare. So it is very unlikely.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:15
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Neurolimal posted:You can return to getting excited about Gaza getting razed off the map. I am as excited as I would have been if I were alive on the morning of 6 August, 1945. That is to say, horrified in the face of sheer destruction and instant deaths of so, so many.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:15
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the holy poopacy posted:I don't even disagree as far as immediate steps go. Even if you were to argue that Israel is wholly responsible for engineering the conditions that brought Hamas to this point, it's not like Israel has a time machine to go back and undo its actions. They can only deal with the situation as it exists now, and in practical terms there isn't a country on earth that wouldn't deal with an attack of this scale with military force; possibly slightly more or slightly less discriminately, but basically the same. However much culpability you assign to Israel for prior conditions won't change the fact that this is the only realistic response. There will never be peace without a Palestinian Right to Return. Everything else is negotiable but we have seen time and time again, for decades now, that the single biggest sticking point is the Right to Return. Previous peace talks offered up parts of East Jerusalem and the West Bank in exchange. Unless Israel changes it's mind, there will never be peace.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:15
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selec posted:Not to mention the several obvious design flaws built into the system. No hardened backups for the mission critical comms? Your lowest bidder had you blind and deaf, what are the billions we send over there even going to? Incredible self-own there. Yeah, I have questions about that as well but IVFW is probably the better place to learn about what might have gone wrong.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:16
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zoux posted:Thank you for your response, and thank you to others who responded but I should be more clear. I'm aware of the state-level failures of the IDF that contributed to Hamas success, but I figure a local cop would pick up an M-16 or something. There had to be tons of IDF vets/reservists just in the civilian population. Were Israelis in the area just completely unaware it was happening? How long did the active operations against civilians go on? The raid on the rave, sure no one there is going to be carrying an assault rifle, but some of these kibbutz look pretty heavily fortified. There's videos of armed security (supposedly) at the rave with (supposedly) a Merkava in frame, and the circulating Kibbutz defense stories others have mentioned, but from the reporting I've seen, yes a lot of border communities were caught unaware. I think how long Hamas attacks on communities continued is difficult to answer at this point, but at least through the weekend.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:19
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The vast majority of Israelis killed were not settlers. Nobody is settling Gaza since the disengagement. In fact the reason Hamas was so successful is that the IDF was sent to the West Bank to protect settlers instead of Israelis near Gaza. The settlements are next to Gaza because they're part of an ethnic cleansing and genocide policy. Young families are encouraged to move there to populate the area and defend Israel's claim.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:21
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Gumball Gumption posted:The settlements are next to Gaza because they're part of an ethnic cleansing and genocide policy. Young families are encouraged to move there to populate the area and defend Israel's claim. I think you’re getting the West Bank and Gaza confused. Based on the 1967 borders there are hundreds of thousands of settlers in the West Bank but none as far as I know in Gaza.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:27
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the holy poopacy posted:I don't even disagree as far as immediate steps go. Even if you were to argue that Israel is wholly responsible for engineering the conditions that brought Hamas to this point, it's not like Israel has a time machine to go back and undo its actions. They can only deal with the situation as it exists now, and in practical terms there isn't a country on earth that wouldn't deal with an attack of this scale with military force; possibly slightly more or slightly less discriminately, but basically the same. However much culpability you assign to Israel for prior conditions won't change the fact that this is the only realistic response. I really can't tell you how to solve it, but you aren't the first person in history to realize that conflicts continue unless you do one of two things; dismantle the enemy in such a way that they can never recover and cease to exist, or convince them to join you in a way that becoming a mutually beneficial ally with shared growth far outweighs the desire for conflict you can see that with germany in ww1, which got you the enemy state of germany in ww2..and that's one of many many examples..and then as a NATO ally later on to swing the other way I don't want genocide, but I also don't understand how to reason with anyone who does..that feels like an impossible ask
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Oct 11, 2023 17:32
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shades of blue posted:There will never be peace without a Palestinian Right to Return. Everything else is negotiable but we have seen time and time again, for decades now, that the single biggest sticking point is the Right to Return. Previous peace talks offered up parts of East Jerusalem and the West Bank in exchange. Unless Israel changes it's mind, there will never be peace. Never happening. The best thing Palestine can hope to get is a peace deal that finally defines Israel's borders, because that is the actual road to stopping further colonial encroachment.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:34
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zer0spunk posted:I really can't tell you how to solve it, but you aren't the first person in history to realize that conflicts continue unless you do one of two things; dismantle the enemy in such a way that they can never recover and cease to exist, or convince them to join you in a way that becoming a mutually beneficial ally with shared growth far outweighs the desire for conflict This is just like if England had Germany held as a captive population prior to both wars, and made it illegal for Germans to have concrete. It doesn’t seem like a useful comparison tbh.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:34
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Eric Cantonese posted:If anyone has the time, could someone explain to me why there does not seem to be any credible opposition to Netanyahu? I know it's annoying to ask for a summary of the past 30 years, but what happened to the Labor party? Is it that hard to run a credible center-left party? Why is the right so much better at coalition building? I'm American, so everything I know about Israeli politics is stuff I've read from afar, but from my understanding it's a combination of things:
Eric Cantonese posted:Was Gantz ideologically that different from Netanyahu? Or was this more about him not being a corrupt piece of poo poo than anything ideological or policy-based? It was mostly about Netanyahu being a corrupt piece of poo poo, yeah. Ideologically, Gantz isn't that much different from Netanyahu, and Blue and White itself was an alliance of centrist and center-right parties united around the sole goal of removing Netanyahu personally.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:35
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shades of blue posted:There will never be peace without a Palestinian Right to Return. Everything else is negotiable but we have seen time and time again, for decades now, that the single biggest sticking point is the Right to Return. Previous peace talks offered up parts of East Jerusalem and the West Bank in exchange. Unless Israel changes it's mind, there will never be peace. Actually would just like to say that based on the books I’ve read, right if return is something the Palestinians were willing to compromise on to a large degree with Arafat being willing to accept a small and largely symbolic right of return. No official details of Arafats peace discussions summit have been released, but two separate journalists released books after speaking to the people on both sides of negotiations which got praise from the Israeli and Palestinian sides for their accuracy. Clayton E Swisher's The Truth About Camp David states: "...Arafat has been willing to accept a limited right of return, in all liklihood within the symbolic strictures of "family reunification" entertained at Stockholm, so long as the Palestinians received recognition of that right and a viable state with palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem and the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount. With those compromises in hand, Arafat would be in a strengthened position to go to the Al Aqsa Mosque and address the entire Palestinian disaspora: "There is no reason to go live in Israel now. Come home and help us build the state we have!"(56)" (page 282) Meanwhile Charles Enderlin's Shattered Dreams: The failure of the peace process in the middle east, 1995 - 2002 states: "Never, despite the claims of certain Jewish organisations, did the Palestinian negotiators demand the return to Israel of 3,000,000 refugees. The figures discussed in the course of the talks varied from several hundred to several thousand Palestinians to be allowed to return with Israel's authorisation" (Page 324) East Jerusalem, Al Aqsa and Israel’s unwillingness to actually let Palestine be a sovereign nation (Israel peace plans would involve a continuing Israeli military presence on Palestine, control of Palestinian. Orders, control of Palestinian construction, etc) are the main sticking points from what I recall.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:37
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Nancy posted:There's videos of armed security (supposedly) at the rave with (supposedly) a Merkava in frame, and the circulating Kibbutz defense stories others have mentioned, but from the reporting I've seen, yes a lot of border communities were caught unaware. I believe that Merkava came for the rescue. The festival itself had plainclothes with pistols, from the footage I've seen. (Also, as an aside to a post I made a few days ago, I'm less confident the festival didn't have a permit of some kind after seeing some of the first hand footage. It was a bit larger than I thought it was, and armed security and semi permanent tent structures for the venue leads me to believe this was a more organized event) This AP story has an account that might match the Merkava sighting: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-music-festival-6a55aae2375944f10ecc4c52d05f2ffe quote:A tank instructor in the Israeli army, Alper knew she was safe when she heard a different kind of explosion — the sound of an Israeli army tank round. She shouted for help and soon soldiers were lifting her out of the bush. Around her lay the lifeless body of one of her friends. The girl from her car she had seen collapse was nowhere to be found; she believes that Hamas militants took her into Gaza. There's a video on this telegram channel (which is really  , I cannot overstate it, it's Israeli first responders group for dumping media) of a tank with what appears to be the survivors from the festival. code:ummel fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 17:39
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team overhead smash posted:I think you’re getting the West Bank and Gaza confused. Based on the 1967 borders there are hundreds of thousands of settlers in the West Bank but none as far as I know in Gaza. The view of Hamas (and the far left in general) is that every part of Israel is a settlement, every Israeli is a settler, and there will be no peace until every single Israeli is forcibly relocated out of the region. The view of the more moderate left (including most Israeli Arab political parties and myself personally) is that the settlement drive in the West Bank has killed the idea of an independent Palestine for good and the most moral outcome at this point is a binational state of all its citizens instead of a Jewish ethnocracy. The view of the right (including most Israeli Zionist centrist parties) is that Palestine will never be ready to be self governing in anyone's lifetime and must be controlled via apartheid measures such as Bantustans. The view of the far right (including two parties in the Israeli government) is that all Palestinian Arabs must either be expelled or killed. Pick your poison.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:43
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selec posted:This is just like if England had Germany held as a captive population prior to both wars, and made it illegal for Germans to have concrete. I think it's pretty apt in the context of me saying (or more accurately agreeing with the last poster) you have two real options to end the cycle, the stick or the carrot. Half measures like sanctions lead to an environment that helped a second generation of conflict, granted that summing up a ton of other factors in ww2 up to basically a fraction of the cause is a little bit reductive, but you understand what I'm saying. You could swap japan here instead too..pearl harbor led to the extreme measure of Hiroshima as a response, there was no half measure and the world was worse for it..i don't want that path, and I think anyone else who is reasonable doesn't either I also don't know how to solve a refugee crisis when the other bordering country flat out won't do anything every single cycle of this and gets no reproach zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 17:45
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team overhead smash posted:I think you’re getting the West Bank and Gaza confused. Based on the 1967 borders there are hundreds of thousands of settlers in the West Bank but none as far as I know in Gaza. They're still settlers. What do you think is the function of a colonial project right next to the frontier?
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Oct 11, 2023 17:48
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DelilahFlowers posted:They're still settlers. What do you think is the function of a colonial project right next to the frontier? How far away from "the frontier" do you have to be to not be considered a settler?
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Oct 11, 2023 17:49
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DelilahFlowers posted:They're still settlers. What do you think is the function of a colonial project right next to the frontier? Okay if your position is that Israel has no right to exist then you need to be upfront about that because most people will use the definition of settler as 'anyone beyond the 67 borders'.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:50
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Lum_ posted:The view of Hamas (and the far left in general) is that every part of Israel is a settlement, every Israeli is a settler, and there will be no peace until every single Israeli is forcibly relocated out of the region. https://www.timesofisrael.com/despite-rockets-arson-balloons-israeli-communities-on-gaza-border-keep-growing/ This is how they wrote about one of the Kibbutz where there was a massacre. They saw themselves as zionists living within the true borders. They're part of an ethnic cleaning and genocidal movement. The far right wing subsidized young families to move there because it benefits them to put these young families in danger.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:51
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zer0spunk posted:I think it's pretty apt in the context of me saying (or more accurately agreeing with the last poster) you have two real options to end the cycle, the stick or the carrot. Half measures like sanctions lead to an environment that helped a second generation of conflict, granted that summing up a ton of other factors in ww2 up to basically a fraction of the cause is a little bit reductive, but you understand what I'm saying. You could swap japan here instead too..pearl harbor led to the extreme measure of Hiroshima as a response, there was no half measure and the world was worse for it..i don't want that path, and I think anyone else who is reasonable doesn't either I think the refugee crisis is about who has the power—why should border countries be willing to fix a problem that is entirely under the control of a frequently-hostile neighbor? It’s like asking Canada to please accept all our people of color, because we can’t control our cops.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:57
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Alchenar posted:Okay if your position is that Israel has no right to exist then you need to be upfront about that because most people will use the definition of settler as 'anyone beyond the 67 borders'. The 1967 borders are questionable at this point given israel never honoring them. Madkal posted:How far away from "the frontier" do you have to be to not be considered a settler? Yknow about the american west and the homesteading act?
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Oct 11, 2023 18:01
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 18:04
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selec posted:I think the refugee crisis is about who has the power—why should border countries be willing to fix a problem that is entirely under the control of a frequently-hostile neighbor? Because this is how many (arguably most?) refugee situations come about? Why should Europe accept Ukrainian refugees when Russia could simply leave? Even if Israel were to unilaterally stop the occupation, massacres and encouragement tomorrow there would still be a refugee crisis across the region.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:06
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DelilahFlowers posted:They're still settlers. What do you think is the function of a colonial project right next to the frontier? If it’s on Israeli land, how is it colonial? If you don’t think the 1967 borders should define Israel’s territory, which is explicitly the legal case, then what should? The 1948 borders? No state of Israel?
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Oct 11, 2023 18:07
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selec posted:I think the refugee crisis is about who has the power—why should border countries be willing to fix a problem that is entirely under the control of a frequently-hostile neighbor? It’s like asking Canada to please accept all our people of color, because we can’t control our cops. Why should the other country on the other border which is also imposing a blockade take some responsibility for refugees? I know why they won't, they aren't shy about it, but I don't know why they shouldn't. I also know why you don't hear "death to Egypt" over it.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:07
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I can’t believe there are Americans here arguing there’s a moral distinction between settlers and civilians when it comes to being murdered.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:07
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DelilahFlowers posted:The 1967 borders are questionable at this point given israel never honoring them. What does this even mean? Of course Israel doesn't honor them, it was part of an armistice with Jordan and Jordan pulled out of the West Bank in something like 88. There's no actual agreement for Israel to honor the 67 borders, the green line is generally something that the Palestinians argue for. The importance of the green line today is more that the settlements that cross it betray the spirit of peace negotiations than anything.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:07
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ummel posted:This is so far from confirmed, that it shouldn't be phrased that way. For the record this is based on the video where the woman is 100% super obviously extremely dead - her legs were not even pointing in the right direction. The mother wrote the same thing when she saw the video, she tweeted that live on the day of too, and is most likely in complete shock. Anyone who has seen that video and goes "that raver girl is totally alive!" is a loving moron Collapsing Farts fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 18:09
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zer0spunk posted:I think it's pretty apt in the context of me saying (or more accurately agreeing with the last poster) you have two real options to end the cycle, the stick or the carrot. Half measures like sanctions lead to an environment that helped a second generation of conflict, granted that summing up a ton of other factors in ww2 up to basically a fraction of the cause is a little bit reductive, but you understand what I'm saying. You could swap japan here instead too..pearl harbor led to the extreme measure of Hiroshima as a response, there was no half measure and the world was worse for it..i don't want that path, and I think anyone else who is reasonable doesn't either https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan The low estimates are 241,000 dead, 213,000 wounded. It could have been up to 900,000 dead. Before the nuclear bombs. The japanese were ready for surrender before that. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 18:10
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zer0spunk posted:Why should the other country on the other border which is also imposing a blockade take some responsibility for refugees? I know why they won't, they aren't shy about it, but I don't know why they shouldn't. I also know why you don't hear "death to Egypt" over it. I mean, because people can accurately tell you the source of their problems? Israel is loving their lives up, it’s poo poo that the refugees have nowhere to go, but ultimately you’re gonna be more pissed at the guy bulldozing your house then at your neighbors who won’t let you come stay with them.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:10
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TheDisreputableDog posted:I can’t believe there are Americans here arguing there’s a moral distinction between settlers and civilians when it comes to being murdered. I can't believe it's being argued at all either. The point doesn't have anything to do with the past but a group of people absolutely still had agency over their decision to go on a shooting spree despite their circumstances.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:12
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zer0spunk posted:I think it's pretty apt in the context of me saying (or more accurately agreeing with the last poster) you have two real options to end the cycle, the stick or the carrot. Half measures like sanctions lead to an environment that helped a second generation of conflict, granted that summing up a ton of other factors in ww2 up to basically a fraction of the cause is a little bit reductive, but you understand what I'm saying. You could swap japan here instead too..pearl harbor led to the extreme measure of Hiroshima as a response, there was no half measure and the world was worse for it..i don't want that path, and I think anyone else who is reasonable doesn't either Pearl harbor did not lead to Hiroshima and Nagasaki outside of the fact that it got the US into the war and later they dropped those bombs. To see it as a one to one correlation is historically ignorant of why the bombs were dropped and the situation they were dropped in. There is no refugee crisis if Israel does not create one. Full stop.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:16
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