moths posted:

A hosed up thing about banning Al-Saqr is this:

Silencing pro-Palestinian voices under the guise of propriety and decorum is just one tool of the genocide being employed right now, in real time.

Obviously a forums ban is on a smaller scale, but this is a drop from the same poisoned well.

That act, this microcosm of de-personing, is more offensive to the soul than anything depicted in a cartoon.

A wartime cartoon is unsavory, but silencing speech for the oppressed is itself a tool of oppression.

It's upsetting to see it played out again here, of all places.

Frosted Flake posted:

To Orange Devil's point, what would they learn that doesn't also challenge their baseline assumptions about the world? It's so much easier for them to forget or consider it a one-off, a mistake, Bush and Cheney being uniquely incompetent or evil, than to reconsider America's place in the world, and their place in America.

As we have been saying for almost two years with Ukraine, atrocity propaganda works incredibly well on people who A) trust the media B) understand the world basically in terms of "vibes" , and for those reasons, C) have an interest in not digging to deeply into any one thing but riding the vibes the media feeds them to chase a feeling. That's the anthesis of introspection.

You could show them all the evidence in the world about "Kuwaiti babies torn from incubators" and the only conclusion they would draw from it is that you were a bit of a weirdo for knowing or caring. It would be incomprehensible that knowing about something that happened then has any bearing on now. First, they don't know about it, and they already hold all of the correct opinions about the world, so obviously knowing it doesn't offer them any benefit. That makes you an eccentric.

Second, when they learn about it, they see it as an odd historical detail, maybe a mistake or the action of a bad actor. Like knowing the name of Alexander the Great's horse or something. Someone naming their horse that today would have no consequence, so what difference does it make if someone in the past lied about that atrocity? What matters is what the Iraqis Russians Hamas are doing now. That was a lie then, we're talking about the truth now, so why bring it up?

Third, suppose they do start tugging on that string. Do they really want to feel bad about the Persian Gulf War? It was so long ago. Why put themselves through that? Besides, there's the good war to focus on now, even if that war in the past was an unfortunate, one-off mistake.

Salvor_Hardin posted:

I was worried that The Defector would chicken out but Samer Kalaf came in hot.

https://defector.com/subjugation-and-dehumanization-lead-to-only-one-result

All worth reading but this is the poo poo that needs to be drilled into the heads of people that want Palestine to peacefully protest

a helpful bear posted:

lmao this thread got someone so mad that they spent money on this banner

Mr SuperAwesome posted:

Excellent post but one thing I do wonder (I engage in these kind of IRL discussions far too much because I am an idiot) if you can begin to persuade people with repeated examples of certain trends, as opposed to just one or two

For example, everyone ITT knows and appreciates that lies constantly to further its own interests and beat the drums of war. Off the top of my head you can list many examples: Gulf of Tonkin incident, Iraq 2 WMDs, anthrax, etc at the UN, Gulf War 1 Nayirah testimony, and probably more for all the other wars (I remember the post in the Ukraine thread where you crack pinged about how Gulf 1 was totally orchestrated by ). So hypothetically if you can refer to the fabrications on literally every US war since WW2 and the lies that they told to initiate the war then they might start getting the whole "USA bad" thing.

Then again I have been trying this with the Ukraine stuff for 2 years and have completely failed, so maybe I am just a naive idiot for trying to convince liberals. Then again, maybe the more you read actual theory (finally starting to do this myself) like posters ITT you might actually be more persuasive than the naive ramblings of an idiot like me and might be able to persuade people IRL, after all we were eventually persuaded to become Marxists and that process did not happen overnight.


oh also death to slow mode

Gunshow Poophole posted:

boy it's real post 9/11 hours out here in the USA again I have almost never felt so isolated and alone for holding to a belief

Stringent posted:

realizing that americans learned absolutely nothing from the aftermath of 9/11 has been one of the most depressing things i've seen in my life.

crepeface posted:

Klein's been off for awhile. I can't remember exactly what tho, I think it was to do with china.

Mr SuperAwesome posted:

Excellent post but one thing I do wonder (I engage in these kind of IRL discussions far too much because I am an idiot) if you can begin to persuade people with repeated examples of certain trends, as opposed to just one or two

For example, everyone ITT knows and appreciates that lies constantly to further its own interests and beat the drums of war. Off the top of my head you can list many examples: Gulf of Tonkin incident, Iraq 2 WMDs, anthrax, etc at the UN, Gulf War 1 Nayirah testimony, and probably more for all the other wars (I remember the post in the Ukraine thread where you crack pinged about how Gulf 1 was totally orchestrated by ). So hypothetically if you can refer to the fabrications on literally every US war since WW2 and the lies that they told to initiate the war then they might start getting the whole "USA bad" thing.

Then again I have been trying this with the Ukraine stuff for 2 years and have completely failed, so maybe I am just a naive idiot for trying to convince liberals. Then again, maybe the more you read actual theory (finally starting to do this myself) like posters ITT you might actually be more persuasive than the naive ramblings of an idiot like me and might be able to persuade people IRL, after all we were eventually persuaded to become Marxists and that process did not happen overnight.

quote:

oh also death to slow mode

a helpful bear posted:

lmao this thread got someone so mad that they spent money on this banner

4d3d3d posted:

Volunteering to go beat off dead settlers and collect their semen
https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1712379114122887350

Centrist Committee posted:

flying apart in that it directly contradicts the myth of stable, peaceful american democracy; so, take your pick

as for the carriers, I think we all know what’s going to have to happen to them before we collectively begin to process that ww3 has already started, america is the 4th reich, the wretched of the earth will win, and america as we understand it will end. I think we cspammers assumed this would be off the coast of china, a few years from now. I think we’ve internalized the market logic of “not this quarter, not my problem.” but, hamas had other ideas and I think we’re struggling to process that it might happen a lot sooner than expected, in the mediterranean

Ardennes posted:

My vote is a slower grinding piece meal ww3 where there is no official declaration but everything just gets worse.

Things are "not so bad right now" and we have a full fledged war in Ukraine, the situation in Gaza (and it looks like the region is a powder keg) but then you have other not insignificant fronts. Anyone remember West Africa? How about Armenia (which was what 2 weeks ago)? How about Kosovo?

WW3 is poo poo just compounding on top of each other, there will be no declaration of war or vote in the Senate (and history books will debate it for a generation) but it is just going to be conflicts all over the world, seemingly disparate on the surface but all connected together.

I really don't think nukes will be used, liberals are too bullshit to use nukes, they know they can't win through them. Israel isn't a fanatic state, it is a liberal one. If they are throw people under the bus to keep in power they will.

quote:

i hope they don't actually want to go in.. I think there's probably enough people screaming in their ear about how that could be a massive blunder.. that being said the delays could likely be explained by Israel being in the process of mobilizing these supposed 300,000 reservists.

quote:

Breakfast All Day posted:

on some bbc radio service a few minutes ago

erudite expert introduced with all their credentials: israel has no obligation to provide energy and water to gaza

feckless stuttering strawman introduced with just their name: they have to, theyre an occupying force

expert: israel doesnt occupy gaza, they pulled out in 2005. hamas occupies gaza. you have no idea whats going on. let egypt provide aid

strawman: egypt tried to provide aid but was turned back by israel. if israel isnt an occupier how can they turn back aid

expert: egypt provided their aid in a convoy. a convoy could contain anything!

talking head moderator interrupting: as an arbiter of neutral objective truth im going to have to side with the expert here. its true a convoy could contain anything. even bombs! you cant just bring bombs into gaza

Pistol_Pete posted:

Psychologically, it must be an absolutely tremendous shock for Israelis: they've previously taken as a given that they set the terms of the conflict, that the massive Israeli military complex is always there to shield them and that the Palestinians are weak and incompetent Others who need to be ground down but not particularly feared.

Furious, armed Palestinians just bursting into their comfy Settler homes and the IDF being nowhere to save them is literally the stuff of nightmares for them and yet, it's just happened.

Hammerstein posted:

My country sucks, this is our parliament last night.



On a more positive note, yesterday's pro Palestine demonstration had more people than the pro Israel one.

Mr SuperAwesome posted:

we were eventually persuaded to become Marxists and that process did not happen overnight

crepeface posted:

death to slow mode

Cookie Cutter posted:

Does anyone have a decent source for the claim that arms intended for Ukraine have ended up with Hamas through the black market?

Hammerstein posted:

My country sucks, this is our parliament last night.



On a more positive note, yesterday's pro Palestine demonstration had more people than the pro Israel one.

BornAPoorBlkChild posted:

ive found a new sleep paralysis demon
https://twitter.com/shadwhite/status/1712078596104241515?t=w-84qtWDiRFvkHx9edvohw&s=19

that av will haunt me in my dreams

BrotherJayne posted:

gently caress timers, gently caress SAD, free al-saqr, DTI

Mr SuperAwesome posted:

someone should set that building on fire, might send a signal that people don't agree.

*taps earpiece* oh...

Engorged Pedipalps posted:

Imagine being at coachella and suddenly an assassin kills the emperor and the gates of oblivion open and daedra just start falling out of the sky throwing flares at people

Gorman Thomas posted:

If my mom called me to tell me that Coachella was under siege by armed men flying in on hang gliders I'd have to tell her to call back because I can't hear her over the wind.

Zodium posted:

the third option I present people, western military support for the defense of Palestine against Israel's openly declared intent to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing, is not actually a viable option; even if the vast majority of the western population supported it, in the absence of proper organization, they have no means by which to pursue the outcome because the west is not a system of democracies where power stems from the assent of a fooled people, but a ruthless dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

quote:

the possible outcomes seem to be:
- no out way is found, and israel genocides the palestinians.
- some way out is found, and israel ethnically cleanses palestine.
- israel is defeated and apartheid is ended by force of arms.

the core's material support for the former two outcomes and visceral opposition to the third is, at this point, essentially indistinguishable from nazism.

Zodium posted:

propaganda is not effective in the abstract. it can only be used to show a viable path: that bolshevik institutions can help against the tyranny of the tsar, that communist party institutions can help against imperialist oppression. it doesn't matter how many examples and hypocrisies you can show people so long as you can't connect them to a viable material alternative, and this is why people so readily support or resign themselves to ethnic cleansing as the "good" option.

Zodium posted:

these weeks where decades happen are the culmination of decades of work where nothing, ostensibly, happened; a long and arduous process finally reaching its critical point. it requires sustained efforts to teach a structured way to perceive and understand the world, which is all a theory is, that can support organized action towards an outcome. this is why nascent western leftist movements, no matter how powerless or irrelevant or incoherent they may seem in the moment, are cut down like weeds in a garden as soon as they are detected.

crepeface posted:

^ that sounds about right.

my experience is that you shouldn't push too hard. your goal shouldn't necessarily be to "win" and convince the other guy, but to chip through some of the propoganda and set them up for some future break through.

I've had some of the most lib-brained friends come around after literal years of talking about current events and there are still things I can radicalise them on (as I continue to be as I learn more and more).

death to slow mode

quote:

The Kenya Human Rights Commission said 90,000 people were executed, tortured or maimed during the British administration’s counterinsurgency operation. The UK government made a historic statement of regret in 2013 over the “torture and other forms of ill-treatment” perpetrated by the colonial administration during the emergency period and paid reparations of £19.9m to about 5,200 people.
“The visit will also acknowledge the more painful aspects of the UK and Kenya’s shared history, including the emergency … His Majesty will take time during the visit to deepen his understanding of the wrongs suffered in this period by the people of Kenya.”

Mr SuperAwesome posted:

so the 3 options were (IIRC):

I actually interpreted the force of arms option as palestine/other arab countries/various militia defeating Israel through force of arms as opposed to western countries lol. at the moment this seems, well not exactly viable but not exactly impossible either! (inshallah)

but your point around propaganda, do you mean that you not only need to explain "usa bad" but also "communism better" and the material reasoning behind that etc? otherwise you just end up like idiot anarchists advocating to burn everything down for the hell of it

this indeed makes sense and given france deporting people who were "anti-semitic" (presumably pro palestine), arrests at protest in germany for having palestinian flags, suella braveman mentioning that "from the river to the sea" or a palestinian flag is an arrestable offence, i wonder how bad it is going to get in the west and how long before we see leftists getting rounded up. or at least some kind of bigger crack down. this week feels like an inflection point: the one where the fascist and genocidal mask truly came off and we embraced openly cheering genocide in the west (as opposed to at least vaguely pretending in prior instances)

thanks, indeed that has been more my goal lately but less explicitly stated.

in completely unrelated news lol, king charles to apologise "acknowledge ‘painful’ colonial past" in Kenya



and once more death to slow mode

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Seems kind of crazy that nobody had time to dwell on the fact that Israeli early warning systems false alarmed an entire invasion from Lebanon.

Al-Saqr posted:

just a heads up, for all of the hate readers quoting me in SAD, i stand by everything i have said in this thread without remorse or regret, i will always say my piece and stand up against apartheid nazism, and if you disagree feel free to talk to me on this discussion i will politely have a discussion a out it with you and own you in the marketplace of ideas, its truly sad that you are too cowardly to do so and need to run to the principal because your fee fees got hurt, and you dont have any moral backbone or spine when the chips of humanity and decency against the forces of fascism and white colonialism are on the ground, but i never expected any less of people like you. im not gonna go into SAD to make my case or defend myself, i dont need to. here i stand, here are my thoughts, i can do no other. Free palestine, DTI.

evilmiera posted:

Oh good the beheading story has made it to the local gymbro portion of the population, though it was mostly one guy getting really mad about it while the other dudes were like "Yeah it's probably a very complex situation" as they tried to get their reps in.