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Oof. This is a live stream war crime. Description of video  :A goddamn father walking with his kids limbs in a bag cause that’s all that’s left. gently caress these monsters.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:13
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mannerup posted:"Watching this IDF figure spreading 'we warned you so' messages about the Gaza hospital before deleting them" isn't proof, plenty of people have screenshots/archived versions of deleted tweets from official accounts. Nobody has provided evidence that statement was made by an IDF spokesperson. Yeah, I went back and looked at the posts. Rakosi posted:Fog of war is still a thing and after this happened hamas immediately blamed the IDF. IDF spokesperson said they warned the hospital, then that statement was walked back and they said they're investigating. Rakosi posted:IDF now saying they didn't warn the hospital at all, walking back and retracting their spokesperson's previous claim, and have posted what they claim is evidence that it wasn't them or hamas, but actually PIJ. Where did you see this information from the IDF?
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Oct 18, 2023 00:13
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the IDF done these "in TWO HOURS we will release EXONERATIVE EVIDENCE that we had NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS" grand announcements prior, when they lied? Seems like an easy way to soothe fairweather supporters for about as long as it takes for them to forget about it. Guess I won't have to wait long to see if I'm wrong about that.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:15
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Neurolimal posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the IDF done these "in TWO HOURS we will release EXONERATIVE EVIDENCE that we had NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS" grand announcements prior, when they lied? Seems like an easy way to soothe fairweather supporters for about as long as it takes for them to forget about it. They did it an hour ago about this exact incident and then deleted the videos because they didn't prove anything, now they are making the exact same statement but saying they have audio logs this time. Next that'll get discredited then they'll say they have text logs, then after that they heard it from some guy.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:17
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when you have clear evidence that exonerates you, you definitely delay releasing it to build up hype
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Oct 18, 2023 00:17
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Groovelord Neato posted:10 percent is still a lot of rockets (and that's buying the almost certainly false effectiveness claims of the designer) and they overwhelmed it during the incursion and saw nothing like this. Yes because you have to actually hit a crowd of 500+ people to have a chance at killing 500+ people. I'm not understanding why this aspect in particular is a mystery. If your bomb lands in an empty field and kills no one, it doesn't mean it was a small and worthless bomb. Hospitals are also complicated by having stores of oxygen and fuel that can make explosions particularly large there. ummel posted:Where did you see this information from the IDF? I'll try to find it, but I've closed and opened a whole bunch of tabs so I'll try dig it out of my history if I can. I remember it flashing by on Reddit/Twitter in the immediate aftermath of the reports of the explosion, when it was immediately being claimed as an IDF attack by reports on the ground and Al-Jazeera.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:19
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Neurolimal posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the IDF done these "in TWO HOURS we will release EXONERATIVE EVIDENCE that we had NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS" grand announcements prior, when they lied? Seems like an easy way to soothe fairweather supporters for about as long as it takes for them to forget about it. Literally all the time. When they shot Shireen they immediately blamed Palestinians. Then when that got debunked they said they were shooting at militants. Then when that got debunked they, months later, quietly admitted they were looking into it before dropping the investigation.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:20
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This is horrific, this is so evil I don't know what to say. Israel has to stop this.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:21
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I realise that in the scheme of things it's not that important, but why would you post a tweet by some crypto bro citing Reuters instead of directly linking to the story? I can't find it on the website.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:22
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Rakosi posted:Yes because you have to actually hit a crowd of 500+ people to have a chance at killing 500+ people. I'm not understanding why this aspect in particular is a mystery. If your bomb lands in an empty field and kills no one, it doesn't mean it was a small and worthless bomb. Hospitals are also complicated by having stores of oxygen and fuel that can make explosions particularly large there. For context, here is an example of the aftermath of a rocket striking a outdoor area, which bent a fence and knocked over an outdoor gym. https://youtu.be/FZ0S2dzZk2Y?si=AA6MsqKTxIj10MS6 Here's the effect of hitting a building directly, which tore holes in the interior of the building on the top floor but didn't damage any of the bottom ones. (Photos taken from Times of Israel, a Israeli newspaper)   You might notice something about these videos and photos: the buildings are still standing. Even a direct strike can take out some outer building facade and rip up drywall but it's not leveling buildings. Lobbing a charge large enough to do that level of damage requires a *lot* more propellant than any other rocket, not to mention the fact that they can't even *aim* these things.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:29
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Rakosi posted:They aren't precision guided systems and most that make it towards Israeli settlements are intercepted by the iron dome. I don't think this is really true? My understanding of the Iron Dome system is that each unit can only fire 60 shots to intercept before it goes down and needs to be reloaded. There's not a lot of Iron Dome units, either, between 10 and 15 for the entire country. That's why Iron Dome went down right away in the current conflict and has been intermittent throughout. quote:This warhead seems to have landed on a very large concentration of people at the hospital. You see, you can have two similarly sized explosions in two different places but the amount of people under the explosion appears to be an important variable in how many people get killed, not necessarily how big the bomb is. Doesn't this seem like a little bit of a convenient explanation, given that Hamas is alleged to have done this by mistake, but haven't managed to kill this many people with every rocket they have ever fired on purpose, combined? Rakosi posted:Yes because you have to actually hit a crowd of 500+ people to have a chance at killing 500+ people. I'm not understanding why this aspect in particular is a mystery. If your bomb lands in an empty field and kills no one, it doesn't mean it was a small and worthless bomb. Hospitals are also complicated by having stores of oxygen and fuel that can make explosions particularly large there. Like I kind of get what you are saying but there's so much convenient stuff that has to line up for your argument to work; The hospital had to have herded 500 people in a single room, the (allegedly misfired) Hamas rocket had to have been the biggest one they've ever fired, it had to just so happen to veer off course to land in that one room the Hospital herded 500 people into, which just so happened to have tons of stores of explosive gas just lying around in the open Or the country with the capability and willpower to do so just dropped a JDAM on it If Hamas could do this, I don't understand how they've never managed to accomplish anything even one tenth as damaging on purpose to Israeli assets. The argument does not make a lot of sense, to me.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:29
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Saying their previous attacks were all small arms is not really a good argument. If they had a serious weapon hidden, now was the time if ever to use it. They’re about to have troops on the ground scour through the area, either use it or lose it.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:30
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Call me naive, but I expect that at some point, the US DoD will release their findings on what happened. Although I don't expect them to provide any evidence (because they don't release their means, ever), I do expect it to be an honest assessment.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:30
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theCalamity posted:It is the official position of this administration that the genocide of Palestinians is justified. So long as they keep supporting Israel, they are supporting a genocide and ethnic cleansing. Lol this probe Koos just ban + 30 yourself for being this awful (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 18, 2023 00:31
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I'm not sure why there is even a pretence of a debate about who did when quite apart from everything else, the social media advisor to Netanyahu admitted it was them and that it was deliberate. https://twitter.com/lowkey0nline/status/1714380404210246079?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Oct 18, 2023 00:33
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I'm not sure why there is even a pretence of a debate about who did when quite apart from everything else, the social media advisor to Netanyahu admitted it was them and that it was deliberate. Do you have a mediating source for this other than someone working for mint press?
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Oct 18, 2023 00:35
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Charliegrs posted:I didn't know SA was so full of ballistics/explosives experts. You guys must all be EOD! https://twitter.com/justin_br0nk/status/1714352303082271215?s=12&t=LrDsQw9MEKXIZlgzOmySOw Justin Bronk is an air combat expert for RUSI (basically the classic military think tank). His take is that it looks like a rocket (not a free fall bomb like a JDAM) hit and the fireball comes from the propellant still inside the rocket or something hit a fuel tank of some sort.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:36
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Discendo Vox posted:Do you have a mediating source for this other than someone working for mint press? Gotta stop posting like this man it sucks incredible amounts of rear end. A bunch of people screenshotted it before he deleted.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:36
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KillHour posted:Call me naive, but I expect that at some point, the US DoD will release their findings on what happened. Although I don't expect them to provide any evidence (because they don't release their means, ever), I do expect it to be an honest assessment. naive is too kind. i'm calling you stupid. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 18, 2023 00:36
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 00:37
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Discendo Vox posted:Do you have a mediating source for this other than someone working for mint press? See in the quote below. It has a different screenshot, so I would assume it was a real tweet. Now, maybe PM's media advisor doesn't get up-to-date dispatches from the military and just mindlessly shares whatever he sees on social media with pure glee and bloodlust. That's also theoretically possible. ummel posted:It might even be deleted now. E: Beaten with a better explanation.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:40
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:I don't think this is really true? My understanding of the Iron Dome system is that each unit can only fire 60 shots to intercept before it goes down and needs to be reloaded. There's not a lot of Iron Dome units, either, between 10 and 15 for the entire country. That's why Iron Dome went down right away in the current conflict and has been intermittent throughout. I understand all of this. The bit that makes the current (in my opinion) greater likelihood of it being a malfunction most likely is that the malfunction did happen directly over the hospital moments before a hypothesised IDF JDAM or otherwise hit it. This is unbelievable coincidence and timing for a malfunction and the subsequent timing window until explosion to occur that makes it look like a misfire and gifts the IDF perfect plausible deniability. Of course, you can argue that it's just too coincidental that the malfunction that happened to unerringly fall into a huge crowd of innocent people outside of the hospital, and I agree, but with nothing to explain what happened to the malfunctioning munition yet, it all appears to be more likely to have been an incredibly unlikely accident. Missiles, especially larger ones, have a lot of fuel in them if they fail soon after launching. It's like, a much bigger explosion than you'd expect at the end of flight from the warhead alone.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:41
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punishedkissinger posted:naive is too kind. i'm calling you stupid. Rude.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:41
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Groovelord Neato posted:Gotta stop posting like this man it sucks incredible amounts of rear end. A bunch of people screenshotted it before he deleted. Great, then we don't need to use mint press as a mediator. This is a setting where every single propaganda entity on the planet is getting their licks in; we should at least attempt to exercise some critical thought about what enters our feeds, and identify and characterize their motivations. In this moment, from these outlets, we are the target for misinformation, and we can also serve as its channel. We should conduct ourselves accordingly. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 00:45
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 00:48
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:If Hamas could do this, I don't understand how they've never managed to accomplish anything even one tenth as damaging on purpose to Israeli assets. The argument does not make a lot of sense, to me. It's really just the 1/1000000000 chance an errant rocket hit a courtyard full of people in the open. gently caress that would be awful.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:52
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mannerup posted:personally im waiting on people who actually know what the hell they are talking about instead of official statements or OSINT people looking at their computer to see if the pixels are evidence Unless I'm reading this wrong, isn't this basically saying to wait for the US military to come out with an official assessment?
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Oct 18, 2023 00:53
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Failed Imagineer posted:- the IDF said they were going to bomb hospitals Is there a source for this? Not so much that I doubt it, but I would like to have it on hand. Caros posted:When they shot Shireen they immediately blamed Palestinians. Then when that got debunked they said they were shooting at militants. Then when that got debunked they, months later, quietly admitted they were looking into it before dropping the investigation. "A explosive device was discharged during an IDF-involved incident, where some bystanders were hit and received medical attention at a nearby facility. We are doing the full investigation into the situation and have no further information at this time.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:55
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Rakosi posted:No, I think it's unbelievable that it just so happened to occur that the rocket fired at them started malfunctioning in the sky just before the hospital hit, and with time enough between the two to look like it was the rocket falling/pitching down, but in that interval an IDF munition swooped in to do the actual damage. No sign of the rocket having fallen anywhere else yet. I don't not want it to be the IDF as some seem to think, it's just that narrative has no evidence yet and the rocket malfunction one is having increasing amounts of corroboration. Pretty much all of your posting about this has been "come onnnn, come onnn, don'tcha think they did it? Come onnnn, I betcha! I don't have anything at all, but don'tcha thinkkkk?" It's not convincing.
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Oct 18, 2023 00:57
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My guess is that Hamas or PIJ were taking some pot shots in the neighborhood and the Israelis, scrambling to retaliate before they ran away, hosed up the targeting or intel and hit the hospital. It would explain the extremely shambolic and inept response of "uhh... Explosion?? We'll call you back", posting and deleting tweets, posting wrong videos from the Internet, and then eventually settling on "oh yeah PIJ did it those guys and their bad rockets fail all the time" and "oh I totally have the evidence just need to figure out how to get my scanner hooked up hang on." Edit: If it was premeditated I'd assume they'd be competent enough to not have a Netanyahu staffer post "Nice dead hospital GOT EM!!" immediately afterwards and then delete it like "What hospital??" mrmcd fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 00:59
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 00:59
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Kchama posted:Pretty much all of your posting about this has been "come onnnn, come onnn, don'tcha think they did it? Come onnnn, I betcha! I don't have anything at all, but don'tcha thinkkkk?" You're absolutely free to not be convinced. I feel I've posted things that raise more questions regarding the immediate assertation that it was definitely the IDF. It is completely possible that it was the IDF and that later facts will prove that, but those facts don't exist yet, and the ones that currently do seem to indicate a missile malfunction as being the most likely culprit, to me.
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Oct 18, 2023 01:03
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. By far the most likely explanation is that Israel struck the hospital. They have the military capability, and it aligns with their genocidal rhetoric and actions in revenge bombing the poo poo out of Gaza the last few days - killing thousands. Even if it was 'accidently hit', they are the ones lobbing bombs around so its on them. Hamas aren't nice people, but whilst they are certainly willing to accept Palestinian civilians dying in the crossfire, I doubt even they would actively target one of their own hospitals. And it being a misfire just lacks credibility - if they had weapons capable of annihilating an entire building like this they would have used it against Israel already. People arguing to give Israel the benefit of the doubt should rely on more than vague claims about the fog of war, quotes from OSINT keyboard warriors arguing over blurry pixels, quotes from journalists showing their pro-Israel biases, and Israeli bots spreading misinformation. Unless by some miracle hard proof emerges that this was down to Hamas - by an order of magnitude the most logical assumption is that Israel did this - they had the means and the motive. Tigey fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 01:04
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Rakosi posted:You're absolutely free to not be convinced. I feel I've posted things that raise more questions regarding the immediate assertation that it was definitely the IDF. It is completely possible that it was the IDF and that later facts will prove that, but those facts don't exist yet, and the ones that currently do seem to indicate a missile malfunction as being the most likely culprit, to me. You haven't, though. You need more than "Don'tcha think it a lil COINKYDINK?" and nonsense about how the fuel would make it explode with like a hundred times more force than any Gazan missile launched ever. That's not how it works. EDIT: Honestly it feels like you're just trying to shove square pegs into round holes to try and prove your initial assumption correct, even though if we want to go with proven facts, there's literally nothing on your side. Kchama fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 01:07
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mrmcd posted:My guess is that Hamas or PIJ were taking some pot shots in the neighborhood and the Israelis, scrambling to retaliate before they ran away, hosed up the targeting or intel and hit the hospital. Israel has a history of deliberately hitting what should be safe places, and designated neutral sites. And nothing about their actions or rhetoric this week suggests that they would flinch at bombing a hospital. The benefit of the doubt isn't deserved when the people dropping bombs have a map with every utility, medical centre, and UN shelter very clearly marked down to the metre. You don't accidentally JDAM a hospital under these circumstances no matter what theoretical fire is theoretically outgoing.
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Oct 18, 2023 01:09
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Of course it was Israel, the fact that it's even being discussed in the west means they're successfully muddying the waters which is horrible on its own.
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Oct 18, 2023 01:13
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Freezer posted:Of course it was Israel, the fact that it's even being discussed in the west means they're successfully muddying the waters which is horrible on its own. There is a very, VERY miniscule chance that it was a misfired rocket from Hamas that happened to either directly hit a storage area for highly combustible material, or hit an overcrowded room/courtyard. HOWEVER, the only reason the hospital would be crowded to that extent is because of Israel bombing the everloving gently caress out of the city, so it's STILL ultimately Israel's fault that those people were there.
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Oct 18, 2023 01:24
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Kchama posted:You haven't, though. You need more than "Don'tcha think it a lil COINKYDINK?" and nonsense about how the fuel would make it explode with like a hundred times more force than any Gazan missile launched ever. That's not how it works. This isn’t an accurate representation of the whole of what I have posted. The argument that it was the IDF can be summed up as “Yes, well, of course they would wouldn’t they?”, with obstensibly no evidence being required to absolutely convince one of this, except that they’ve bombed safe zones before. It is very important to get this right, so I do not see any harm in sharing other plausible theories, especially ones that appear to be gaining more traction, amidst an environment where protests have been happening near Israeli and US embassies in other countries, shootings and explosions in the west bank, and cancelled important geopolitical meetings in the aftermath of potential misinformation that it was definitely IDF being spread by Al-Jazeera and others. I have before and will again say that it is perfectly possible that the malfunction is just a coincidence at the time the IDF committed historic new war crimes with a JDAM, but there is nothing material to point to that just yet. Randalor posted:There is a very, VERY miniscule chance that it was a misfired rocket from Hamas that happened to either directly hit a storage area for highly combustible material, or hit an overcrowded room/courtyard. HOWEVER, the only reason the hospital would be crowded to that extent is because of Israel bombing the everloving gently caress out of the city, so it's STILL ultimately Israel's fault that those people were there. That Israel is ultimately responsible regardless is a fair conclusion, I feel, but it means less in terms of immediate regional ramifications. Rakosi fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 01:25
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Unlike rest of goons I have zero knowledge about rockets except "they fly and go boom", I have no clue what JDAM is even after googling it, is there any ELI5 version of why it could/couldn't be Palestinian/Israeli rocket?
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Oct 18, 2023 01:27
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https://twitter.com/ThomasVLinge/status/1714431083175981556 Things aren't looking good in Jordan. Edit- it wasn't mentioned in this tweet, but they're protesting at the Israeli embassy. Another reporter, I think she's posting this first hand? https://twitter.com/janearraf/status/1714404808671568319 ummel fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 01:30
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