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Irony Be My Shield posted:The reason I am saying it's not a building-levelling JDAM is because we now have plenty of photos of the building in question still standing. We also have plenty of photos of the crater being a hundred or so feet away from the building. Despite the huge distance between the blast and the buildings you can still see significant damage to every building adjacent to the courtyard. All the windows are blown out, paint is stripped from walls, awnings are damaged. That had to have been an absolutely gigantic explosion. It doesn't need to be a JDAM to have been an Israeli weapon, this could have just been a hellfire or similar atg missile
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Oct 18, 2023 16:47
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Main Paineframe posted:It's not impossible for blowing up the parking lot outside to kill a bunch of people. Yeah, I was just remembering the suicide bombing outside the airport in Afghanistan that was I believe a suicide belt and that killed almost 200 people.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:49
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Decon posted:Stolen from CSPAM's thread: That’s interesting - so there’s a crater in the hospital parking lot that’s about 30 cm deep, 1m diameter hole, which would be like a 200 lb fragmentation bomb, or like a 40 lb instantaneous nose regular bomb? But either of such a bomb would not have made a huge fireball. The other thing now that more photos have come out, there was a huge fireball in the video, but the parking lot doesn’t look like it had oxygen tanks or fuel tanks there - just a dozen cars with probably a few liters in their tanks. The oxygen tanks at that hospital, if correctly labeled, were on the other side of the building. I’m not at all a military guy, but my understanding was also that military-designed bombs rarely make big fireballs, since they waste all their energy upwards into the air, like the VBIED that the Ukrainians used to hit the Kerch bridge. Anyway, this seems kind of an academic point as Israel has specifically destroyed tons of civilian housing and killed thousands of innocent people. Whose rocket it was is as meaningless as whether that one German girl was brutally murdered or still alive - either way it was 259 or 260 people at the festival slaughtered in cold blood.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:52
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Morning. Had really, really hoped the death toll would be revised down a lot more than it was, so that’s pretty upsetting and awful. With the caveat that their analysis is preliminary and they say they’re still collecting intel, US intelligence seems able to claim they are ‘fairly certain’ it wasn’t Israeli. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/us/politics/hospital-gaza-us-intelligence.html I think the posters pointing out that regardless of who did it, Israel has ultimate responsibility for the situation are right. The fact that there were even so many people sheltering in a car park is the result of IDF bombing against civilians, and the previous and future bombings of hospitals and schools is genocide 101. I still believe strongly that Al Jazeera’s reporting on this particular incident has been deeply unprofessional and they are directly responsible for the suddenly inflamed tensions in the region following the explosion. They took unverified reports from HAMAS officials on the ground, who could not have known anything so quickly, and ran with it. They are still running with that information despite plenty of signs that have lead to most of the media backtracking from the original claims and attributions, and US intelligence tentatively being able to independently confirm IDF were not involved.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:53
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Zzulu posted:Is it really important who blew it up? Poor Hamas not even in this fight. They are the true victims.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:54
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Rakosi posted:I still believe strongly that Al Jazeera’s reporting on this particular incident has been deeply unprofessional and they are directly responsible for the suddenly inflamed tensions in the region following the explosion. They took unverified reports from HAMAS officials on the ground, who could not have known anything so quickly, and ran with it. They are still running with that information despite plenty of signs that have lead to most of the media backtracking from the original claims and attributions, and US intelligence tentatively being able to independently confirm IDF were not involved. Western media has been doing the same thing with IDF soldiers, they were repeating that stupid 40 babies story on the word of one guy The media on both sides have abandoned professionalism for bloodlust, let's not get into finger pointing when CNN is doing blood libel on the air
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Oct 18, 2023 16:59
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Rakosi posted:US intelligence tentatively being able to independently confirm IDF were not involved. No, unnamed officials are claiming that US intelligence has independently verified the IDF's most recent claim - for which they have yet to provide their evidence. The basis for the claim that the IDF is responsible, beyond just the scale of the damage, is that they have been bombing hospitals in Gaza and have in recent days specifically bombed this hospital The basis for the claim that maybe Hamas or the PIJ are responsible have been footage of missiles well after the fact, a suspicious audio record that news organizations seem to agree is bullshit and contradicted later IDF claims anyways, and now just seems to rest on twitter OSINT accounts eyeballing it. TGLT fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 17:00
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TGLT posted:No, unnamed officials are claiming that US intelligence has independently verified the IDF's most recent claim - for which they have yet to provide their evidence. I wouldn't expect it to come. We're not in Gaza, so either the info is all secondhand from Israel or we're using satellites to track individual projectiles 24/7 as they cross Gaza which is tech they wouldn't want to share. Or they have Hamas informants who are telling them what happened which is very unlikely. No matter what they know that whatever they say will be treated with the highest suspicion (because it's probably bullshit) so why bother
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Oct 18, 2023 17:07
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:Western media has been doing the same thing with IDF soldiers, they were repeating that stupid 40 babies story on the word of one guy Yes, this is completely true, but even though both sides of the media do the same stuff, reporting that has encouraged and inspired more violence in the region is more dangerous in the current situation. Realistically, the false initial claims are basically going to be accept as fact by those with entrenched views and certainly by Palestinians and their supporters in the region, regardless of whatever sculpatory evidence now comes out. Inaccurate reporting has, for many, become the truth, and directly caused civil unrest and violence, because Al Jazeera trusts HAMAS as a reliable narrator. TGLT posted:No, unnamed officials are claiming that US intelligence has independently verified the IDF's most recent claim - for which they have yet to provide their evidence. They’re still collecting evidence and doing more investigation, which is the proper thing to do. The problem is that because of the danger of lies travelling around the world before truth has had time to be investigated, officials are having to step out off-the-record to comment on the ongoing investigation to help mitigate some of the harm that has been done. TGLT posted:The basis for the claim that the IDF is responsible, beyond just the scale of the damage, is that they have been bombing hospitals in Gaza and have in recent days specifically bombed this hospital I disagree completely with your entire presentation of what the totality of the evidence against PIJ is, and even still it’s still stronger than your narrative about what evidence against the IDF there is. But the thread spent most of last night discussing evidence and the thread has moved on from that. I don’t think anyone wants to relitigate images and footage. Rakosi fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 17:09
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Rakosi posted:Yes, this is completely true, but even though both sides of the media do the same stuff, reporting that has encouraged and inspired more violence in the region is more dangerous in the current situation. Realistically, the false initial claims are basically going to be accept as fact by those with entrenched views and certainly by Palestinians and their supporters in the region, regardless of whatever sculpatory evidence now comes out. Inaccurate reporting has, for many, become the truth, and directly caused civil unrest and violence, because Al Jazeera trusts HAMAS as a reliable narrator. You are right now trusting that the US, who is allied with and has provided arms to Israel and has a clear pro-Israel position, is a reliable narrator. The IDF rushed out "evidence" that was quickly debunked. If unnamed US officials want to claim they have evidence to exonerate the IDF in this specific massacre of civilians they should be ready to provide that evidence right now. If they do not have that evidence or do not feel confident enough to provide it, they should instead shut the gently caress up because right now it just seems like they're attempting to further muddy the waters to benefit the IDF.
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Oct 18, 2023 17:13
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Rakosi posted:Yes, this is completely true, but even though both sides of the media do the same stuff, reporting that has encouraged and inspired more violence in the region is more dangerous in the current situation. Realistically, the false initial claims are basically going to be accept as fact by those with entrenched views and certainly by Palestinians and their supporters in the region, regardless of whatever sculpatory evidence now comes out. Inaccurate reporting has, for many, become the truth, and directly caused civil unrest and violence, because Al Jazeera trusts HAMAS as a reliable narrator. You mean like all the local Israeli news stories talking about mass rapes, large scale civilian murders and dead babies, and the immediate violence it inspired in the west bank? Or like the CNN/Fox News reporting that lead to a landlord killing a six year old for being a Muslim? Like dude I get what you're saying and mostly agree but you are wearing the blinders on what western media are doing and it's pretty gross in the context of the last few days. We have to have two sides of reporting in this conflict because both sides have a history of lying. You find the truth in between these two poles.
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Oct 18, 2023 17:16
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:You mean like all the local Israeli news stories talking about mass rapes, large scale civilian murders and dead babies, and the immediate violence it inspired in the west bank? Of course, yes, but I am talking about this incident and the reporting that followed it and considering the inflammatory nature of 470+ people being killed, half of which were children, it is a uniquely and historic level of harm. I don’t know why you’re trying to “what-about” with Western media. Not every claim against HAMAS or non-western media sources has to be couched and hedged constantly with ackowledgements of IDF attrocities or wester media abuses of truth in order to sugar coat it. It’s tiresome and seems unnecessary to have to do that every time when talking about a single incident, especially when everyone here seems to be in agreement regarding that aspect.
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Oct 18, 2023 17:22
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Rakosi posted:Of course, yes, but I am talking about this incident and the reporting that followed it and considering the inflammatory nature of 470+ people being killed, half of which were children, it is a uniquely and historic level of harm. I don’t know why you’re trying to “what-about” with Western media. Not every claim against HAMAS or non-western media sources has to be couched and hedged constantly with ackowledgements of IDF attrocities or wester media abuses of truth in order to sugar coat it. It’s tiresome and seems unnecessary to have to do that every time when talking about a single incident, especially when everyone here seems to be in agreement regarding that aspect. You called out Al Jazeera for a lack of professionalism in the way they're riling up their viewers. If you're making an argument about professionalism you are necessarily comparing them to other industry players. This isn't a whataboutism, you framed the problem in a way that demands a peer comparison. Al Jazeera is acting exactly as professionally as every other outlet.
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Oct 18, 2023 17:27
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Saladman posted:That’s interesting - so there’s a crater in the hospital parking lot that’s about 30 cm deep, 1m diameter hole, which would be like a 200 lb fragmentation bomb, or like a 40 lb instantaneous nose regular bomb? But either of such a bomb would not have made a huge fireball. Note that the graph there only includes impact and delay fuses, airburst options are also available in quantity and if the intent was to attack unarmored surface targets like say a rocket battery or a crowd of civilians in a parking lot would be by far the more effective option and waste significantly less energy digging up and throwing dirt around.
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Oct 18, 2023 17:32
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:If you're making an argument about professionalism you are necessarily comparing them to other industry players. I disagree. Professionalism demands a comparison to professional standards, in the case of journalism there are very well-developed standards for ethically reporting the complete truth. Just like the standards we apply to armies, these standards aren't comparisons to peers, they're inflexible "thou shalt/thou shalt not" standards which apply even if all your peers are doing much worse. I don't know what exactly what decisions have been in front of Al Jazeera, but American media has been failing horribly, regardless of what their peers are doing.
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Oct 18, 2023 17:34
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:You called out Al Jazeera for a lack of professionalism in the way they're riling up their viewers. If you're making an argument about professionalism you are necessarily comparing them to other industry players. I understand your feeling but I am decidedly not comparing the two because western media culpability does nothing to soften or worsen what it is that Al Jazeera did. It’s not more okay because other media groups do it, and it’s not less okay if they didn’t. It’s just not okay, and there’s no need to ‘balance’ the rhetoric when I am being very specific about Al Jazeera’s reporting on this individual incident, and the unique levels of inflammatory response it generated. I don’t have the link, but the Jordanian Foreign Minister was on CNN earlier saying that he doesn’t care whatever evidence is released now, their stance is that Israel did it. This puts people who were yesterday prepared to meet with Biden and discuss the issues firmly into a post-truth reality and that is very bad, especially during war. Rakosi fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 17:40
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I disagree. Professionalism demands a comparison to professional standards, in the case of journalism there are very well-developed standards for ethically reporting the complete truth. Just like the standards we apply to armies, these standards aren't comparisons to peers, they're inflexible "thou shalt/thou shalt not" standards which apply even if all your peers are doing much worse. The industry sets the professional standard I agree that there are established standards of ethics, but I don't think those matter anymore in journalism and I don't think they have mattered for a very long time The media has done an unbelievably lovely job of handling conflict reporting in general and investigative news largely seems to be dead and it sucks a lot. I don't think that's any one outlets problem though, the disease seems to be global and universal among the press
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Oct 18, 2023 17:44
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More fuel for the fire: https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1714646537555337529 It still just all seems like tea leaf reading to me. The flashes over the hospital have shown up in other, less clear videos and been cited as evidence of an errant rocket and/or or a missile intercept, but now that there's a better view showing the trajectory and regularity of the lights I'm even more skeptical. I have no clue at all what the streaks that briefly show up in the other video at the end are, either. I certainly have a hard time seeing any of this as somehow proving that this was a rocket launched from Gaza, though.
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Oct 18, 2023 17:45
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pic from that nrg8000 tweet thread people keep posting it does appear that there were a bunch of people staying in the courtyard. In the other pictures of the scene you can see mattresses and ground coverings set up in the parking lot area as well
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Oct 18, 2023 17:47
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bbc also has said people were sheltering in the courtyard. so i think the casualty count at least is pretty ironclad and will probably go up
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Oct 18, 2023 17:48
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Rakosi posted:I don’t have the link, but the Jordanian Foreign Minister was on CNN earlier saying that he doesn’t care whatever evidence is released now, their stance is that Israel did it. This puts people who were yesterday prepared to meet with Biden and discuss the issues firmly into a post-truth reality and that is very bad, especially during war. I mean considering the quality of the "evidence"... https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/1714670858914894046
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Oct 18, 2023 17:56
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 17:57
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https://x.com/alextomo/status/1714670858914894046?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Chief correspondent of the UK's Channel 4 News confirming they believe that the audio the IDF released is an extremely crude fake. So they've gone from publishing videos from a year ago to outright faking evidence, while eyewitnesses at the actual hospital seem to be unanimously going 'yep, Israel bombed us'. I think at this point, we can just assume they did it unless extraordinary counterevidence presents itself.
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Oct 18, 2023 17:57
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the holy poopacy posted:More fuel for the fire: The timestamps for this footage is way off for it to have been part of the hospital explosion. First reports of the hospital explosion were around 19:20 iirc. There were several bits of footage going around immediately after the incident, like this, that were then latterly pulled.
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Oct 18, 2023 17:58
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Isn't Gaza currently in near-complete darkness also? All the lights are on in that video.
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Oct 18, 2023 18:02
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IDF flattened the Nuseirat Mosque while children were collecting water. I'm scared of posting tweets due to the graphic nature of some of the images I've seen. But yeah, another documented genocidal war crime 
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Oct 18, 2023 18:04
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/alextomo/status/1714670858914894046?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q This isn't the only patently obvious fake - see also the "documents" pack found and distributed by the "Southern Responders" channel. The forgeries are *so* crude that it's insulting, both to Western media that clearly doesn't bother checking anything in Arabic and to any Arabs because the Israelis aren't doing anything meaningful to hide it from any Levantine speaker.
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Oct 18, 2023 18:04
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Isn't Gaza currently in near-complete darkness also? All the lights are on in that video. it's not possible to tell where that video is being shot from, it could well be from the east of the Gaza strip (in Israel / occupied Palestine) looking out towards the sea. The videos that the IDF have released that appears to show the same incident and 19:59 time code also show alot of lights in close proximity to where the rockets were being launched. The Gaza strip is like 6 km wide at some points and the space where the explosion on the ground takes place appears to be shrouded in darkness to me, although it's hard to tell from that angle.
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Oct 18, 2023 18:05
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Rakosi posted:The timestamps for this footage is way off for it to have been part of the hospital explosion. First reports of the hospital explosion were around 19:20 iirc. There were several bits of footage going around immediately after the incident, like this, that were then latterly pulled. I'm not taking a side on anything here, I just want to point out that, as someone who reviews time stamped video footage with great frequency (attorney), the timestamps are more often wrong than right. Just one more issue with relying on random videos shared on social media.
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Oct 18, 2023 18:06
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Personally, I vote we ignore all these 'random lights in the sky on a dark night' videos unless anyone has any compelling reason why we shouldn't. They're impossible to interpret and incredibly easy to take out of context, as the IDF has now demonstrated twice in a row to deflect blame from itself with misleading/falsified bullshit.
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Oct 18, 2023 18:10
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TGLT posted:You are right now trusting that the US, who is allied with and has provided arms to Israel and has a clear pro-Israel position, is a reliable narrator. Even if they do provide the evidence, what makes you think it's something a layman would be able to easily validate or debunk with any degree of reliability? The thing you're missing here is that there isn't an unbiased reliable narrator with perfect knowledge of exactly what happened. This was a high-speed projectile of some sort that suddenly landed in or near a hospital after dark, killing or injuring anyone nearby, in a war happening in an open-air prison halfway across the world where both sides are actively engaging in PR activities to sway the international community. Look at how long it took us to even get correct info on where the explosion actually happened, despite the fact that it's far easier to tell where something blew up than it is to figure out what caused the explosion. We are likely not going to know with perfect certainty exactly what happened. Are the IDF and the US military reliable narrators? Of course not. But are Hamas and Islamic Jihad reliable narrators? Not really. Are eyewitnesses and reporters reliable narrators? They're less likely to lie, but also less likely to know exactly what kind of projectile caused the explosion, so there's a limit to how reliably they can narrate. There's always going to be some uncertainty in our knowledge, and we don't have the ability to clear that away. Whether or not the IDF is responsible for this particular bomb, though, the IDF is definitely a major contributor to these fatalities. It's undisputed that they've closed off Gaza's borders and supplies, and spent days bombarding it from afar with artillery and airstrikes. That's led to the hospitals being swamped with injured people seeking medical care and terrified people seeking safe shelter. Moreover, it's left militants with no way to retaliate except by using rockets, which are mostly inaccurate and unreliable models because the Israeli blockade has made it difficult to import or build weaponry. And if the scattered reports of it being an Iron Dome shootdown are true, then that would be another Israeli contribution to this tragedy.
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Oct 18, 2023 18:15
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Hong XiuQuan posted:This isn't the only patently obvious fake - see also the "documents" pack found and distributed by the "Southern Responders" channel. The forgeries are *so* crude that it's insulting, both to Western media that clearly doesn't bother checking anything in Arabic and to any Arabs because the Israelis aren't doing anything meaningful to hide it from any Levantine speaker. Are you talking about the ones with the water marks and such? I don't think those were from that group. It really doesn't matter though, because those forgeries were still widely circulated.
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Oct 18, 2023 18:21
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Rakosi posted:The timestamps for this footage is way off for it to have been part of the hospital explosion. First reports of the hospital explosion were around 19:20 iirc. There were several bits of footage going around immediately after the incident, like this, that were then latterly pulled. The time stamp matches what N12 news said they recorded with their own cameras, the stamp is down to the second but an hour off from the video there. https://twitter.com/N12News/status/1714582806007865366 What’s more interesting is that the news video shows the blast underneath the path of the rockets while the other video shows it’s on the other side.
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Oct 18, 2023 18:23
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Main Paineframe posted:Even if they do provide the evidence, what makes you think it's something a layman would be able to easily validate or debunk with any degree of reliability? You are aware that media organizations have a habit of employing experts - not laymen - to evaluate the credibility of evidence, yes? "Your average layperson won't understand it" or "some people might not believe it" is not in fact a good reason to withhold evidence, especially when the US government is using the claim that evidences exists (don't worry it's right over just behind the camera) to control the public narrative surrounding an event. It is also loving absurd to use "well no side is reliable" as a defense for some one rushing in with a news report that amounts to "US officials said a thing for which they have provided no evidence for" as proof that the IDF is in the clear.
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Oct 18, 2023 18:26
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Especially after Israel took responsibility for the bombing, claiming there was a HAMAS control center in the hospital and the White House said Israel was justified in bombing the hospital until the extent of death was known and international outrage kicked off. Than all of that was retracted and suddenly the PIJ was at fault, which blaming the PIJ for its own actions is a tactic Israel has employed before in covering up its own war times with killing civilians
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Oct 18, 2023 18:30
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TGLT posted:It is also loving absurd to use "well no side is reliable" as a defense for some one rushing in with a news report that amounts to "US officials said a thing for which they have provided no evidence for" as proof that the IDF is in the clear. They aren't doing that though? People just need to chill and stop reading the worst possible intent of a post just because they believe something different. Edit: assuming pronouns.
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Oct 18, 2023 18:43
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NovemberMike posted:What exactly do you mean by "Zionist-settler" here? Zionists were still seriously looking at Mississippi and Uganda until something like 1905 and until the British Mandate it wasn't particularly serious. Migrations before this had some Zionist elements but they tended to be more about fleeing Eastern European pogroms than anything aspirational. Apologies some of my language will be off as Im still trying to grasp the history. I am referring to the settlers purchasing land in the area, I often see references to early tensions referring to this time period. I used the term Zionists very loosely for this time period, like you said there with Zionist elements but not the full on aspirational ideology. Basically looking for further detailed reading on when did things start to get to a tipping point in the region between just some people fleeing Europe and a more concentrated effort and what began to cause the friction with the local populations. Edit: I will note I am not trying to pinpoint some singular flash point or a "who started it" perspective, just trying to get a better grasp on the early history as its something I see often referred too but not a ton of citation on. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 18:43
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At this point, I'm more interested in trying to ascertain a clearer death toll from the missile attack than the perpetrator.
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Oct 18, 2023 18:58
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Demiurge4 posted:What’s more interesting is that the news video shows the blast underneath the path of the rockets while the other video shows it’s on the other side. they have found the perfect angle in the cartesian plane
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Oct 18, 2023 18:59
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MikeC posted:They aren't doing that though? People just need to chill and stop reading the worst possible intent of a post just because they believe something different. I do not think it takes a wizard to divine the intentions of some one who, after spending last night reposting the IDF's purported evidence, made a post condemning Al Jazeera for taking Hamas at their word while taking the US government at its word. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 18, 2023 19:03
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