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Engorged Pedipalps posted:To kill 500 people that someone thought were soldiers camped out next to the vehicles someone thought were technicals Maera Sior posted:If they're trying to get people to leave the hospital but don't want to risk collapsing it, targeting the hospital grounds might be a next step. If this were the case, and there were more people than they expected, I would expect it to play out as we saw: Take credit, then backpedal when the body count was announced. As I stated, if either of these were their goals, why not pick adjacent to a bigger target? PT6A posted:I mean, yeah, Dad, it looks pretty bad. My room smells like smoke and you caught me with a pack the other day, and yes there's butts from that same brand on the carpet, but I swear to god, a crazy person broke in and smoked the cigarettes that totally weren't mine -- I don't even smoke, I'd never smoke -- in my room. How did IDF gently caress up so bad that they missed their targeted building? Kalit fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 02:46
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mannerup posted:mentioned this on the last page but is he currently a member of the government in any official capacity? I see him being cited as a former digital media officer of Netanyahu and can't find anything on his current status. He appears to be just some state sponsored social media influencer dipshit, not some kind of Netanyahu confidant. Rubellavator posted:Here's Netanyahu at his wedding back in January giving a speech. I can't find any indication he's quit since January. And he's a social media guy but I'd have expected him to be in the loop to the point of not getting his information from reuters like he claimed.
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Oct 19, 2023 02:49
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 02:49
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mannerup posted:my point is how is it known he has access to privileged inside information? I don’t doubt he continues to be a strong supporter of Netanyahu and has/had a long working history with but I don’t see how he directly speaks for the government in an official capacity Yeah, if he's just a social media strategy guy for Netanyahu or something that just makes him a dipshit on the internet. Is there evidence he's more than that?
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Oct 19, 2023 02:55
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mannerup posted:my point is how is it known he has access to privileged inside information? I don’t doubt he continues to be a strong supporter of Netanyahu and had a long working history with but I don’t see how he directly speaks for the government in an official capacity He's in the IDF and a long-time advisor to Netanyahu would answer the access question. Or at least was, hard to imagine he has any job left now. Kalit posted:As I stated, if either of these were their goals, why not pick adjacent to a bigger target? If the target was not the building but instead what they'd misidentified as a 'hamas base' inside the building then it appears they were extremely accurate. to be clear i have no clue what happened beyond what can be seen and am not claiming any concrete knowledge, I'm just talking through the possibility that the attack was something other than the IDF using a jdam to flatten the entire hospital complex.
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Oct 19, 2023 02:56
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Kalit posted:As I stated, if either of these were their goals, why not pick adjacent to a bigger target? I'm not getting what you're asking. Are you asking if their target was to hit a bunch of people, why not hit a bigger crowd? Or a bigger building? ETA: Seriously, someone please explain this to me, it seems like I'm not parsing this right. Maera Sior fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 02:56
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mannerup posted:my point is how is it known he has access to privileged inside information? I don’t doubt he continues to be a strong supporter of Netanyahu and has/had a long working history with but I don’t see how he directly speaks for the government in an official capacity It wasn't even on an official account, it was a personal twitter account.
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Oct 19, 2023 02:57
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Kalit posted:
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Oct 19, 2023 02:58
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Look sometimes I just get so excited about denying some war crimes I think my country has done, that I do it before I'm told we didn't actually do a war crime! loving sue me, who among us hasn't made that mistake?
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Oct 19, 2023 02:59
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Maera Sior posted:I'm not getting what you're asking. Are you asking if their target was to hit a bunch of people, why not hit a bigger crowd? Or a bigger building? Since you were suggesting it's possible that the IDF was trying to get people to leave a hospital, why wouldn't they strike adjacent to a bigger hospital?
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Oct 19, 2023 03:01
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 03:01
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Kalit posted:Since you were suggesting it's possible that the IDF was trying to get people to leave a hospital, why wouldn't they strike adjacent to a bigger hospital? They wanted that one cleared out for some reason. It had already been targeted.
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Oct 19, 2023 03:07
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mannerup posted:im not arguing he isn’t a complete dipshit and would just make poo poo up for Netanyahu during the initial reporting of the hospital attack, but that doesn’t really lend any credibility to him as a source of inside information Well, there's two options. Either he had an official source of information and went off half-cocked, or he didn't have an official source of information and drew the exact conclusion that every other sane person did, which is that Israel was responsible for this crime against humanity. I suppose it's not proof in any real sense, but if the friend of an artist says "yeah I'm pretty sure he made that painting" then I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to prove it's a forgery. Israel said it was going to bomb hospitals (inasmuch as it warned people to evacuate). Israel warned that it would bomb this exact hospital. Israel has bombed hospitals in the past. Israel has the capability to bomb this hospital in the way that it was bombed. You'd have to be a loving imbecile to draw any other conclusion but: Israel did, in fact, bomb this hospital. Naftali might be a prick, but he's not a moron.
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Oct 19, 2023 03:10
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 03:13
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Maera Sior posted:They wanted that one cleared out for some reason. It had already been targeted. If a hospital was the main goal, don't you think Al-Shifa would have made more sense as a larger target? Especially for PR reasons, as there is already a history of mis-use of it by Hamas that IDF could hide behind?
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Oct 19, 2023 03:14
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mannerup posted:that’s my point, there’s plenty of other better evidence to make the case Fair enough. This is pretty powerful circumstantial evidence, mind. If I was known to have shot and killed several people, and I threatened to shoot and kill a certain person, and then that person was found shot to death, I would expect me to be the first suspect, even if someone else shot and killed that specific person.
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Oct 19, 2023 03:21
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PT6A posted:Israel said it was going to bomb hospitals (inasmuch as it warned people to evacuate). Israel warned that it would bomb this exact hospital. Israel has bombed hospitals in the past. Israel has the capability to bomb this hospital in the way that it was bombed. You'd have to be a loving imbecile to draw any other conclusion but: Israel did, in fact, bomb this hospital. Naftali might be a prick, but he's not a moron.
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Oct 19, 2023 03:21
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Given the history of IDF actions, the rhetoric of the IDF and the Israeli government, and the orders to evacuate the hospital that the staff refused to obey, I honestly don't think it's unreasonable to entertain the possibility that they wanted to force people away from the hospital as part of the screamingly obvious strategy of denying basic services to the Palestinians. They may not have thought they'd kill as many people as they did, or they might not have been thinking about international optics and so didn't care. They hit a UN school today, they'd already hit that hospital at least twice. They hit medical facilities regularly as noted by the WHO in one of the posts earlier in this thread, and they were bombing so close to a larger hospital today that it was being hit with debris/shrapnel. There is no particularly credible reason not to entertain plain malice as a factor in how the IDF would come to hit a crowd of civilians in a location of humanitarian necessity and de-facto sanctuary. In a region they have placed under siege and are denying food, power, medical aid, and drinking water to, to the extent that residents are drinking sea water to try stay alive. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 03:26
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There are basically two ways you can approach the evidence in this hospital case. Either Israel is evil and bombed the hospital on purpose in order to exterminate as many Palestinians as possible because they hate the Palestinians, or Israel does evil in order to establish security over the territory they have claimed, and for their people. Intentionally bombing the hospital would not help Israel achieve either strategic objective, extermination or security, as the reaction to the explosion has been the establishment of a humanitarian corridor from the Egyptian border, further delays to the potential ground invasion, outrage and instability in the neighboring Arab states, and diplomatic risk to the US-Israel relationship. All of those outcomes could have easily been foreseen if either assumption about the nature of Israel were true, so unless you think there is no rationality to their actions, the likelihood of an intentional attack like this is diminished. Even if you think Israel both is evil and does evil, they haven't shown themselves to be incapable of rationalizing and achieving their strategic objectives in the past. Consider your orientation on that issue and how your preconceptions influence your willingness to consider the evidence wherever you stand on this horrific incident.
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Oct 19, 2023 03:27
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 03:42
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Kalit posted:If a hospital was the main goal, don't you think Al-Shifa would have made more sense as a larger target? Especially for PR reasons, as there is already a history of mis-use of it by Hamas that IDF could hide behind? Look, I can't tell you why that one was targeted over others. But it was already targeted twice (along with warning phone calls) so at some point you have to accept that they thought it was a good idea.
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Oct 19, 2023 04:12
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What's the possibility the hospital courtyard was hit with an artillery round opposed to a bomb? And maybe an airburst artillery round?
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Oct 19, 2023 04:36
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BeefThief posted:There are basically two ways you can approach the evidence in this hospital case. Either Israel is evil and bombed the hospital on purpose in order to exterminate as many Palestinians as possible because they hate the Palestinians, or Israel does evil in order to establish security over the territory they have claimed, and for their people. This is a good viewpoint. While I understand not giving the benefit of the doubt to an actor which many view as "genocidal", I am also reluctant when I see these people giving benefit of the doubt to a US-designated sponsor of terrorism and retrading on whether babies were beheaded. There's a place in this world to condemn both, but many take sides quickly and approach the other in bad faith. If you're gonna call the IDF monsters for targetting civilians, you sure better be condemning Hamas for the same. Israel gains nothing by bombing a hospital, and if they wanted to target hospitals and schools and civilians intentionally, they would have been able to wipe out the entire Gaza Strip in hours. That doesn't excuse the outcome or their actions and what happened, but if they truly had the intent of mass genocide it would have been accomplished already. Nor would it make sense to invade by ground and take on risk of further Israeli deaths, were it not for the hostages.
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Oct 19, 2023 05:13
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i fly airplanes posted:This is a good viewpoint. While I understand not giving the benefit of the doubt to an actor which many view as "genocidal", I am also reluctant when I see these people giving benefit of the doubt to a US-designated sponsor of terrorism and retrading on whether babies were beheaded. Israel does target hospitals and schools intentionally. Have you not been paying attention? They had already dropped "warning" bombs on this specific hospital on the 14th. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2023 05:16
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Ringo Roadagain posted:Israel does target hospitals and schools intentionally. Have you not been paying attention? They had already dropped "warning" bombs on this specific hospital on the 14th. According to whom? Whose intent? Even the Israeli leaders can't give a clear answer: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/18/what-is-israels-narrative-on-the-gaza-hospital-explosion Again, if they wanted to target and bomb hospitals and schools intentionally, there's many others in Gaza Strip and they wouldn't bother with this press cherade. Why bother with a "warning" bomb? I'm trying to not be insensitive to this disaster while trying to understand your logic here.
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Oct 19, 2023 05:23
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mannerup posted:im not arguing he isn’t a complete dipshit and would just make poo poo up on Netanyahu’s behalf during the initial reporting of the hospital attack, but that doesn’t really lend any credibility to him as a source of inside information yeah it was pretty clearly this guy was basically TVIV'ing the war (if you look at his account, his job is internet man) and whooping as people died. The chances of this guy actually having a direct line to who is bombing/planning is very slim.
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Oct 19, 2023 05:27
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Let's say he's just a stupid internet dipshit: why would his initial guess be "we did this, but it's all good, there were terrorists there"? Either it's because he's deranged, or because he realizes it's incredibly loving likely that the state of Israel committed this war crime.
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Oct 19, 2023 05:32
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i fly airplanes posted:According to whom? Whose intent? This is very interesting. It's definitely possible someone made up a warning bomb story for the exact place a Hamas rocket would later accidentally blow up.
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Oct 19, 2023 05:33
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Homeless Friend posted:yeah it was pretty clearly this guy was basically TVIV'ing the war (if you look at his account, his job is internet man) and whooping as people died. The chances of this guy actually having a direct line to who is bombing/planning is very slim. How many internet mans do you know whose wedding was attended by, and featured a speech given by, the head of government?
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Oct 19, 2023 05:35
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There are plenty of examples of countries committing war crimes without escalating to full-scale genocide. Reasoning that because a country has the capability to kill everyone and aren't doing it, that therefore they can't be guilty of a specific war crime like bombing a hospital, does not make a lot of sense to me. I mean how would this reasoning apply to Russia. Russia is a nuclear power and could kill everyone in Ukraine, yet they don't. Does that mean that they must not have intentionally bombed those hospitals in Ukraine since if they wanted to maximize civilian casualties they could have killed more?
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Oct 19, 2023 05:38
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i fly airplanes posted:This is a good viewpoint. While I understand not giving the benefit of the doubt to an actor which many view as "genocidal", I am also reluctant when I see these people giving benefit of the doubt to a US-designated sponsor of terrorism and retrading on whether babies were beheaded. As politely as possible: If your standards for reasonability are that people uncritically accept blood libel there is zero reason for anyone to care what you deem to be “good faith” or give any credence to your analysis of motives, non-genocidal nature of long-term ethnic cleaning campaigns, etc.
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Oct 19, 2023 05:38
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PT6A posted:Let's say he's just a stupid internet dipshit: why would his initial guess be "we did this, but it's all good, there were terrorists there"? Either it's because he's deranged, or because he realizes it's incredibly loving likely that the state of Israel committed this war crime. Is it really so alien? Lets look at our own history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmwYNS97EbE I don't understand the need to argue over this guy in particular, you've got a video of the hospital being bombed. Some twitter post don't matter too much. Fuschia tude posted:How many internet mans do you know whose wedding was attended by, and featured a speech given by, the head of government? The israeli government is amateur hour, sure. They've got no real impetus to be a tight operation you might expect out of a say more sanitized U.S. military officials w/r/t social media. Being bloodthirsty at all times in fact plays well with their voters, from what I've seen.
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Oct 19, 2023 05:42
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Hey can you take a look at this post I made asking you to explain your post? Giggs posted:
Please and thank you.
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Oct 19, 2023 05:43
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i fly airplanes posted:Israel gains nothing by bombing a hospital, and if they wanted to target hospitals and schools and civilians intentionally, they would have been able to wipe out the entire Gaza Strip in hours. That doesn't excuse the outcome or their actions and what happened, but if they truly had the intent of mass genocide it would have been accomplished already. Are you suggesting that Israel would drop nukes on their own doorstep or are you just wildly underestimating how much conventional bombing it takes to level 100+ square miles of urban terrain? Israel's bombing campaign has already eclipsed the past few rounds of war in Gaza in intensity and has hit multiple hospitals and schools (although if you're feeling charitable, most such hits seem to be indirect and incidental, probably more negligent than deliberate.) By what standards are they demonstrating restraint beyond the basic self preservation of not bathing their own country in radioactive fallout?
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Oct 19, 2023 05:44
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i fly airplanes posted:According to whom? Whose intent? according to israel https://www.who.int/news/item/14-10...ick-and-injured here is the who condemning israel telling hospitals to evacuate https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/news/news-and-statements/gaza-hospitals-are-facing-catastrophe-says-archbishop-canterbury and about how the hospital had been hit with "warning" bombs on saturday
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Oct 19, 2023 05:45
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The Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope are clearly just both pussies who love terrorism and Hamas, and I saw them kissing Hamas, and after they were done kissing Hamas I heard them say "jews suck." (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2023 05:49
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LGD posted:As politely as possible: If your standards for reasonability are that people uncritically accept blood libel there is zero reason for anyone to care what you deem to be “good faith” or give any credence to your analysis of motives, non-genocidal nature of long-term ethnic cleaning campaigns, etc. Can you explain a bit by what you mean by blood libel? I do believe that successive Israeli governments and the settlers/far right in Israel is engaging in the long-term displacement/forced relocation of Palestinians in the West Bank, but it's my understanding up until this war, they had very little interest in occupying the Gaza Strip. The lack of good faith is how some reasoned that Israel deserved the terrorist attack. Ringo Roadagain posted:according to israel I agree with the WHO statements totally, but they are not claiming Israel is bombing hospitals and intending to do that. Both are statements condemning the evacuation order. The "warning" bomb, I did not find anything relating to a practice like that in your links, it briefly mentioned "Israeli rocket fire". Warning kind of ascribes intent/motive. i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 05:50
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Kalit posted:If a hospital was the main goal, don't you think Al-Shifa would have made more sense as a larger target? Especially for PR reasons, as there is already a history of mis-use of it by Hamas that IDF could hide behind? reporting over the last week suggest there are 35000-40000 idps sheltering in Al-Shifa. here there were only ~1000 according to reports. al Shifa also tends to have way more journalists around and indeed has been in the news quite a bit recently. for reference to just how packed it is, https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/10/14/photos-displaced-palestinians-staying-the-shifa-hospital-ground i fly airplanes posted:This is a good viewpoint. While I understand not giving the benefit of the doubt to an actor which many view as "genocidal", I am also reluctant when I see these people giving benefit of the doubt to a US-designated sponsor of terrorism and retrading on whether babies were beheaded. Israel clearly wants hospitals in Gaza to not be places of refuge, hence why they tried to force the evacuation of all of Gaza's hospitals 4 days ago (eg https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1713277138437038573?s=20 ) and only relented in the face of overwhelming international pressure. Attacking a hospital would serve to shatter the perception that hospitals are a place of refuge or safety. So there certainly is a rationale for what Israel would gain from it vis a vis their public goals just days ago, though I doubt anyone here would dispute that the cost:benefit of actually doing it would be utterly stupid. i genuinely do not know how much rationality can be ascribed to Israel right now and the kind of rationality that applies to states in the context of international politics is not really the same kind of rationality people think of wrt individual decisionmaking. things that are rational to one country are very often not rational to another. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 05:55
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i fly airplanes posted:Can you explain a bit by what you mean by blood libel? before hamas took over the gaza strip, there were israeli settlements in the gaza strip. the plan has always been to drive the palestinians out of the west bank and gaza strip, not just the west bank and leave the gaza strip alone.
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Oct 19, 2023 05:57
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BeefThief posted:There are basically two ways you can approach the evidence in this hospital case. Either Israel is evil and bombed the hospital on purpose in order to exterminate as many Palestinians as possible because they hate the Palestinians, or Israel does evil in order to establish security over the territory they have claimed, and for their people. Maybe Israel did have a strategic goal in mind, but didn't expect the attack on the hospital would kill 500 people and become a front page PR disaster for them instead of another footnote in a history book, and are now covering their rear end. Or maybe Israel really did think Hamas was massing forces there to use the hospital staff as human shields, which is something they claim Hamas is doing with hospitals anyway. Or maybe Israel hit it by accident. Or maybe IJ did, I dunno, but there are more possible explanations than "Israelis is just evil" and "Israel is irrational"
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Oct 19, 2023 06:03
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