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Hamelekim posted:At some point countries in the region will have to take military action against Israel when Israel goes into Gaza and the deaths increase. The people in those countries will riot and threaten to overthrow their autocratic rulers if they don't. uh huh (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 26, 2023 22:16
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Bel Shazar posted:Indiscriminately killing your prison population because part of that population broke out of prison and killed people is never a proportional response. FWIW I think they meant insofar as "everyone in Israel's freaking out and making the exact same mistakes as the US during 9/11"
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Oct 26, 2023 22:21
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Hamelekim posted:At some point countries in the region will have to take military action against Israel when Israel goes into Gaza and the deaths increase. The people in those countries will riot and threaten to overthrow their autocratic rulers if they don't. What on earth made you come to this conclusion
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Oct 26, 2023 22:22
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Hamelekim posted:At some point countries in the region will have to take military action against Israel when Israel goes into Gaza and the deaths increase. The people in those countries will riot and threaten to overthrow their autocratic rulers if they don't. You, and a lot of other people would be extremely well-served by reading a new book by journalist Vincent Bevins, IF WE BURN. It tracks the history of and reflects on the success or lack thereof of protest movements around the world in the last 10-15 years. TL;DR is ask the people who filled up Tahrir Square if they felt like they got what they wanted, or if they ended up with something quite different than what they wanted. But seriously, read that book. Protests aren’t enough, and may in fact be counterproductive depending on how they go. You might end up empowering the very forces you opposed if they can hijack it, which happened globally several times in recent history. I cannot recommend it highly enough.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:24
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Neurolimal posted:FWIW I think they meant insofar as "everyone in Israel's freaking out and making the exact same mistakes as the US during 9/11" Proportional to the US's massively overblown and deeply self-serving reaction, absolutely.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:24
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selec posted:What’s your strategy for ending this practice besides putting your head in the sand? I didn't mean in a way for people to be unaware of it, but I meant in a sense of giving more clicks/interaction to a lovely dox on Twitter.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:24
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Viller posted:Thank you for the level headed response, they are hard to come by nowadays. That 3rd party will be named the United States and they will do a coup if Israel doesn't like the results.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:24
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Collapsing Farts posted:Hamas is poo poo and I hope the entirety of Hamas is destroyed And how many kids are you content to see Israel massacre in the ostensible pursuit of this goal? We're at three thousand so, say four thousand? Five thousand? Ten thousand? Do you think Israel has the right to murder as many children as it wants so long as it can be said to nebulously advance this goal?
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Oct 26, 2023 22:33
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Collapsing Farts posted:What on earth made you come to this conclusion Logic and reason. Why have the rules including Saudi Arabia turned away from normalization all of a sudden? Why do they have to be seen to be on the side of the Palestinians all of a sudden if they aren't in fear of their own population? They certainly don't care, but protests around the region for the Palestinians seems to have been the trigger. I mean even in Egypt you had protests where protesting isn't legal and they didn't do anything to stop it.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:35
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Hamelekim posted:At some point countries in the region will have to take military action against Israel when Israel goes into Gaza and the deaths increase. The people in those countries will riot and threaten to overthrow their autocratic rulers if they don't. Arab dictators all up and down the Middle East have had no problem in the past doing unpopular stuff that sucks poo poo and having the military crack the heads of any protestors that think otherwise. They also all almost universally share a sentiment that Israel can't be defeated anyway and must be appeased at any cost, which just further reinforces them going to extreme lengths to not do anything overt even with extreme public pressure. I think what's far more likely is that that a lot of arab countries around Israel pretend to act like they're going to do something, but mostly just quietly chill relations and cancel trade deals or something they know they can reverse if the winds blow the other way.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:45
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TGLT posted:And how many kids are you content to see Israel massacre in the ostensible pursuit of this goal? We're at three thousand so, say four thousand? Five thousand? Ten thousand? Do you think Israel has the right to murder as many children as it wants so long as it can be said to nebulously advance this goal? Likud has killed far more innocent people than Hamas ever could but we don't hear people calling them a terrorist group. We're already about 3:1 for children murdered vs civilians murdered during Hamas's attacks (I know people like to say 1400 but a sizable chunk of that was IDF/cops which gets ignored).
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Oct 26, 2023 22:46
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Hamelekim posted:Logic and reason. Why have the rules including Saudi Arabia turned away from normalization all of a sudden? Why do they have to be seen to be on the side of the Palestinians all of a sudden if they aren't in fear of their own population? They certainly don't care, but protests around the region for the Palestinians seems to have been the trigger. We don’t know that they have turned away from normalization. It’s a very common tactic in governments of all types to delay a process or desire rather than abandon it, wait for your disorganized opposition to wear themselves out/the moment of contestation to pass, and then pick up where they left off. Like how American legislators of both parties still periodically go back to looking for ways to cut Social Security. They will keep trying, their incentives are such that they have to keep trying, and what the little people need or want doesn’t figure into it. Governments are like a dude who only stops cheating on his wife long enough for her to stop checking his phone so thoroughly. They don’t fear their populations so much as they have a strategy for managing negative PR. Going back to the husband example: wouldn’t he just stop cheating if he actually respected or feared his wife’s opinion or actions? It takes a lot for a protest to actually succeed, the vast majority fail, and there are really well-worn and documented tactics governments of all flavors can and do use to ride out the turbulence then go ahead and do what the ruling class wanted to do in the first place.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:46
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Groovelord Neato posted:Likud has killed far more innocent people than Hamas ever could but we don't hear people calling them a terrorist group. Not anymore. But that is their origins.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:53
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It is strange how the zionist terrorist group Irgun eventually transitioned into Herut then got rolled into Likud, but we're supposed to pretend such a process could never happen with Hamas.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:57
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Jaxyon posted:Not anymore. Indeed so. No one speaks about the poison fruit of the terrorist groups Irgun or Lehi. Those were Freedom Fighters, according to our current discourse.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:57
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https://twitter.com/akbarsahmed/status/1717597275755601933 https://twitter.com/akbarsahmed/status/1717597660725612989
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Oct 26, 2023 22:57
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selec posted:You, and a lot of other people would be extremely well-served by reading a new book by journalist Vincent Bevins, IF WE BURN. It tracks the history of and reflects on the success or lack thereof of protest movements around the world in the last 10-15 years. I know all about the failure of protests to affect any real political change. It depressed me a great deal at the time when I realized that nothing was going to change. The reasons for the protests are different though. I'm not saying that they will affect positive change internally, but that it could cause them to act militarily in some fashion. Maybe it's a false assumption, but I hope that they will, because otherwise everyone is going to just stand by and watch a genocide occur and do nothing. I might read the book but I don't really want to because it will just make me depressed.
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Oct 26, 2023 22:58
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"We don't have the data on this" "How about this data" "No no that data isn't good enough. Who can ever truly know?" This is so frustrating
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Oct 26, 2023 22:59
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Collapsing Farts posted:What on earth made you come to this conclusion What on earth are u what on the earthing for. You got something to say then say it.
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Oct 26, 2023 23:00
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Because it's ludicrous on multiple levels. These countries have put down protests before. And launching a suicidal war against a nuclear power fully backed by the US is a far more insane concession to make than any internal change.
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Oct 26, 2023 23:03
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Hamelekim posted:I know all about the failure of protests to affect any real political change. It depressed me a great deal at the time when I realized that nothing was going to change. The reasons for the protests are different though. I'm not saying that they will affect positive change internally, but that it could cause them to act militarily in some fashion. You only have to feel depressed if there is no other way. There are other ways, read your Lenin and Mao. You don’t have to agree with their goals, but their tactical and strategic analysis was correct, and there are frameworks you can adapt to modern contexts. I’m sorry the future sucks, but doomerism and refusing to look won’t make it suck less. You’re already gazing at the horror, might as well learn while you do it, IMO. People can be mobilized en masse—they will get into the streets for a good cause. This is self-evident, as we have seen recently and in the last 20+ years, they will get out there! That’s very optimism-generating for me! That there is a lot of organizational and educational work to be done to make those mass mobilizations effective isn’t a cause for depression. The people will be there in the streets, as we see; it’s just a problem of getting them to do something more effective once they get there. It’s not an easy job, but it’s a job that’s been done effectively in the past, and can be done effectively again.
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Oct 26, 2023 23:04
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HonorableTB posted:"We don't have the data on this" and don't forget "No one is questioning or underplaying the scope of this crisis, comma, and here is why we've decided that it's actually not that big a deal and we'll only start caring once it's over (leaving implicit that that will also be when we can't be expected to stop it from happening)."
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Oct 26, 2023 23:06
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selec posted:We don’t know that they have turned away from normalization. It’s a very common tactic in governments of all types to delay a process or desire rather than abandon it, wait for your disorganized opposition to wear themselves out/the moment of contestation to pass, and then pick up where they left off. I pretty much agree with you. I'll just say that nothing lasts forever, especially autocratic governments. They always fall in the end given enough time.
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Oct 26, 2023 23:10
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selec posted:You, and a lot of other people would be extremely well-served by reading a new book by journalist Vincent Bevins, IF WE BURN. It tracks the history of and reflects on the success or lack thereof of protest movements around the world in the last 10-15 years. Basically that's what happened with the US protests of the 1960s as well. Just a route to reactionary land.
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Oct 26, 2023 23:18
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Jaxyon posted:Not anymore. poo poo the terror group that tried to ally with Hitler got folded into the IDF and they give out a military award named after them.
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Oct 26, 2023 23:19
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Viller posted:Thank you for the level headed response, they are hard to come by nowadays. I think you're coming at this from a very one-sided perspective. You asked whether Gaza was faking fatality numbers, but you never asked whether Israel faked the Oct 7th fatality numbers. You seem to feel that the 2006 election that Hamas won wasn't legitimate, but have you ever questioned whether Israel's elections are legitimate? You feel that the Palestinian people couldn't possibly support a violent political group killing several hundred Israeli civilians in indiscriminate attacks, but the Israeli people are supporting a violent political group that's engaged in multiple massacres of similar size against Gaza. To be clear, there's no reason to think that Israel is faking casualty numbers or rigging elections. But there's no reason to think that Hamas is faking casualty numbers or rigging elections either. Why is your suspicion reserved exclusively for one side of the conflict? Personally, I find the elections thing to be especially ridiculous because Hamas were basically the only ones who didn't engage in misconduct during and after the 2006 elections (which were supervised by an independent international commission). Israel heavily put their thumb on the scale, especially in East Jerusalem. And when that failed, Hamas' opponents attempted a coup (under heavy pressure from the US and Israel) and made a number of unconstitutional political changes in the territory that they managed to seize control of in the resulting civil war. None of this is secret! The Fatah-Hamas conflict is well-known, and Bush's State Department leaked like a sieve and even left a paper trail documenting the pressure that US diplomats were expected to put on Abbas to oust Hamas (with US support to handle the expected civil war). Yet without fail, practically everyone who's ignorant of the conflict tends to come in assuming that Hamas' win was illegitimate.
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Oct 26, 2023 23:44
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Because it's ludicrous on multiple levels. These countries have put down protests before. And launching a suicidal war against a nuclear power fully backed by the US is a far more insane concession to make than any internal change. Not as much as watching a genocide happen on their doorsteps
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Oct 27, 2023 00:12
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skipmyseashells posted:Not as much as watching a genocide happen on their doorsteps But seriously, if they do anything other than whatever lines their own pockets most then it’s probably in order to preserve their positions of power. There’s no world in which actually attacking Israel helps then with that, but the fact they’re backing away from Israel rather than ignoring the massacre and especially the fact that they’re allowing illegal protests to happen rather than stamping them out does indicate they’re feeling real pressure at least for the moment.
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Oct 27, 2023 00:50
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PT6A posted:Indeed so. No one speaks about the poison fruit of the terrorist groups Irgun or Lehi. Those were Freedom Fighters, according to our current discourse. When I saw pro-Israel posters saying that violence against civilians is always wrong, I realized that none of them knew how Israel was actually founded (and about any event besides October 7th).
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Oct 27, 2023 00:52
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 00:57
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hadji murad posted:When I saw pro-Israel posters saying that violence against civilians is always wrong, I realized that none of them knew how Israel was actually founded (and about any event besides October 7th). I don't understand the connection here I guess, what about the founding of Israel means that violence against civilians isn't wrong?
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Oct 27, 2023 01:01
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mannerup posted:violence against civilians is always wrong, don't see how Israel being founded through displacement, ethnic cleansing and committing atrocities against civilians makes that statement wrong or hypocritical unless they believe none of those events actually occurred It seems often in the media that violence against Israeli civilians is simply more wrong than against Palestinian civilians. I saw the whole world mourn the attack in Israel but largely shrug at a much larger atrocity in Gaza.
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Oct 27, 2023 01:03
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Arguing that violence against civilians and collective punishment are OK actually is the worst possible thing you can be doing right now if you don't want Israel to wipe out Gaza.
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Oct 27, 2023 01:03
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mannerup posted:violence against civilians is always wrong, don't see how Israel being founded through displacement, ethnic cleansing and committing atrocities against civilians makes that statement wrong or hypocritical You're correct, but when a representative of the State of Israel comes for an interview with some empty-head on CNN, are they ever asked "do you condemn Irgun?" or "do you condemn the massacre at Tantura?" Yet it's apparently the duty of everyone arguing for the Palestinian cause in the media, to first rend their garments and condemn in the strongest terms, everything Hamas has ever done. Both these groups committed atrocities. Hamas hopes their atrocities end in liberation for their people, no different from what Irgun hoped, and indeed what Irgun achieved via those atrocities. Without justifying what they did, can you at least understand why they might have done it?
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Oct 27, 2023 01:07
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Arguing that violence against civilians and collective punishment are OK actually is the worst possible thing you can be doing right now if you don't want Israel to wipe out Gaza. They're hellbent on that anyway.
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Oct 27, 2023 01:10
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Arguing that violence against civilians and collective punishment are OK actually is the worst possible thing you can be doing right now if you don't want Israel to wipe out Gaza. I figure this might be a good time to say that, at least from a moderation point of view, I do not interpret "collective punishment against the people of (name of country/state/whatever)" as genocide or saying we should directly punish the people out of justice or revenge. I see it as more imposing a punishment, reparations, losing land, whatever against the nation that can then indirectly impact the people who enabled their nation to do terrible things in the first place, which is what often happens when a nation loses a conflict, right or wrong. So no, I'm not probing someone for saying they believe the people of (Israel/Gaza/USA/whoever) should be collectively punished for allowing their country to do something bad, unless they make it very clear that they believe genocide is justified.
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Oct 27, 2023 01:14
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Rigel posted:I figure this might be a good time to say that, at least from a moderation point of view, I do not interpret "collective punishment against the people of (name of country/state/whatever)" as genocide or saying we should directly punish the people out of justice or revenge. So to be clear calling for violence against civilians is ok but the line is at genocide?
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Oct 27, 2023 01:19
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socialsecurity posted:So to be clear calling for violence against civilians is ok but the line is at genocide? No.
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Oct 27, 2023 01:22
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 01:23
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Rigel posted:I figure this might be a good time to say that, at least from a moderation point of view, I do not interpret "collective punishment against the people of (name of country/state/whatever)" as genocide or saying we should directly punish the people out of justice or revenge. Reparations and losing land aren't collective punishment. They're fundamentally punishments against the state, not against people (though they can frequently lead to collective punishment as a result). Punishing a state is not collective punishment (though punishing a nation is, since strictly speaking the word "nation" refers to a cultural or ethnic group rather than to a country). Collective punishment is when people are punished for things that they didn't do, being held responsible for the acts of a state or of other people. For example, responding to an insurgent attack by indiscriminately massacring civilians in the area - a tactic used frequently by the Nazis in the 1940s, and also by Israel in the 2020s. Another example would be using the crimes of a few people to justify mass oppression of their entire ethnic group - a practice that was popular with Hitler, Stalin, Menachim Begin, and Benjamin Netanyahu.
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Oct 27, 2023 01:31
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