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Nuebot posted:The problem with that, is that it's really hard to pull it off in any really convincing way because it usually either requires your new protagonist to basically be "evil", or the previous protagonist to start acting so outside of their character it's justified to consider them evil now because it's fairly rare for a protagonist in general to be dubious enough they'd ever really be an antagonist, and it rarely ever works well if you wind up going the route of them somehow teaming up in the end. Destiny did a fairly good job of spinning these plates for a little bit before it all fell apart. The early series ideological divide was basically Kira and Cagalli's idealism and not wanting people to die no matter what but at the cost of increasing battlefield confusion and prolonging the overall conflict versus Shinn and Athrun's pragmatism in seeking to end battles as quickly and decisively as possible, even at significant cost of life, if it serves to bring the overall conflict to an end faster. Both sides of the ideological conflict hate war and want it to end, but they have monumental disagreements on what to do along the way, exemplified by the infamous "Cagalli is crying" bit where Athrun straight up calls Kira out on making the fighting drag out longer. Shinn didn't even particularly give a crap about Kira until Kira started showing up on the battlefield constantly and interfering with the fighting, and he didn't really even want to kill Kira until Kira killed Stellar.
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Nov 10, 2023 18:05
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Akett posted:It's great that the most compelling character trait they came up with for Shinn Asuka is that he hates Cagali and her dad for going to war for Orb's ideals, ideals such as not letting the Earth Alliance genocide Shinn Asuka. Orb's thing is that they actively betrayed their ideals. They secretly worked with the Earth Alliance and were responsible for the Earth Alliance getting the boosts that it did. (Extended universe stuff tends to put this mostly on Rondo Ghina and his sister, but in the series Cagalli's dad basically takes full blame.) Orb broke their neutrality first which basically destroyed any goodwill they had as appearing neutral. On top of that Orb then tried to retreat back to neutrality when it was convenient for them, despite this requiring them fielding the same mobile suits that they'd co-developed with the EA in the first place to do so. If you're not in the know that the protagonists are, it effectively looks more like: "Orb betrayed its neutrality, got burned, and then forced a fight instead of surrendering to uphold ideals it had already violated." The act of which lead to a battle that got Shinn's family killed in the crossfire. Logically the dude probably can go "Yes, well, I know the EA are genocidal maniacs and they probably would have tried to kill us eventually" but the blame for the actual cause of the fight looks to be Orb's fault. It's also why he hates Orb so hard in Destiny because post-SEED they went back to 'upholding their ideals' until (again, from his perspective) the buckled under the slightest pressure from the EA and began to work towards the genociding again, so as near as he can tell Orb's ideals only stand up when it is convenient. (And this is something Cagalli had to struggle with BECAUSE last time her father upheld his ideals it got Orb taken over and hosed up.) In theory Cagalli's plot arc ends with her deciding that fighting for her ideals is fine and justified and that Orb's problem was prioritizing safety for some over the morally correct choice, but then she gives the literal symbol of that over to a brainwashed war criminal for reasons. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 18:20
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Yeah Orb's neutrality in the original SEED is basically a complete bullshit sham because they're actively helping the EA develop functional mobile suits. The fig leaf excuse is that they're doing it under duress and keeping the best bits of that tech for themselves, but they're still ultimately helping the genocidal warmongers who nuked a colony full of civilians unprovoked achieve technological parity with ZAFT. They're also doing it under the noses of their own people in a way that exposes those people to incredible risk; all the people living and working at Heliopolis were basically put in the line of fire completely unwarned or prepared by Orb hiding MS dev there. Orb doing things contrary to their own neutrality that puts their citizens directly in the line of fire is a recurring theme that ultimately leads to Shinn's circumstances.
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Nov 10, 2023 19:14
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For all of Destiny's many writing problems, it's actually pretty good about making Shinn's big flaw the fact he chooses the path that seems safest in the moment and isn't really able to back away from that, which also explains his response to Orb. The safest path for Orb would have been to surrender to the EA and the consequences that followed were not something he considers important because he only looks at the consequences that happened. It's something he continues to stick to, which leads to him making incredibly bad choices like giving Stella back to the EA or backing the Destiny Plan because in both of those situations they were promising safety and survival and he prioritized that over anything else. And it is 100% understandable why he would feel that way because his life sucked and the CE sucks and past a certain point characters are going to go "Yes, fine, whatever makes the bad times stop, I care less about what is right over what is safe." (Which is, again, why Cagalli's plot sucks so hard because Cagalli, more than Kira or Athrun, is Shinn's foil, and the plot would be roughly 500% better if Cagalli vs Shinn was his final battle because they have the most conflict between them.)
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Nov 10, 2023 19:28
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Imo the Destiny Gundam is pretty cool, especially when it activates the wings and uses it's BFS Too bad it got trashed at the end of Seed Destiny
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Nov 10, 2023 19:43
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I'm sure we'll see an Unyielding Destiny in the movie alongside Perfect Freedom and Undying Justice or whatever.
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Nov 10, 2023 19:48
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Been watching gundam 0083 at a rate of 1 episode a week and about halfway through now. I don't know how much of it is the poor writing and how much is the goofy dub but this experience has been very funny. I love 0083
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Nov 11, 2023 02:04
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The art direction is A+ at least
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Nov 11, 2023 02:21
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Maybe the peak of Gundam animation. It or F91. Shame about the story and characters
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Nov 11, 2023 02:22
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I actually will give it this, I think 0083 is a good starting point for Gundam. The basic plot is twisty enough to keep people interested and it doesn't require nearly as much foreknowledge as people think, one side lost a war and are mad, the other side won but are too arrogant to perceive the revanchism coming big business wants $$. Combined with the shorter run time, great animation, and decent music you have a decent product, and with a novice a lot of the logical problems with the scenario and how everything goes down don't really enter into the equation.
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Nov 11, 2023 02:27
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It was cool that it aired on Adult Swim. Gundam wing was one thing but seeing 0083's animation was something else, even if the dub is all over the place with its quality
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Nov 11, 2023 02:32
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Gaius Marius posted:I actually will give it this, I think 0083 is a good starting point for Gundam. The basic plot is twisty enough to keep people interested and it doesn't require nearly as much foreknowledge as people think, one side lost a war and are mad, the other side won but are too arrogant to perceive the revanchism coming big business wants $$. Combined with the shorter run time, great animation, and decent music you have a decent product, and with a novice a lot of the logical problems with the scenario and how everything goes down don't really enter into the equation. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was the first UC thing I saw, after watching Wing and G on toonami back in the day. Probably the best entry point besides the original series
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Nov 11, 2023 02:33
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When I watch 0083 I'm not looking for a love affair with it. I just need the magic.
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Nov 11, 2023 02:45
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The Winner is the best Gundam OP ever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB8TFMAWhpY ...and it's attached to the worst Gundam show I've ever seen. I have nothing good to say about this mess. I at least have some good things to say about Destiny or 00 S2.
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Nov 11, 2023 03:08
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0083 is a fourth the length and isn't consistently offensive to the eyes, no way it's worse than destiny.
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Nov 11, 2023 03:14
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Gaius Marius posted:0083 is a fourth the length and isn't consistently offensive to the eyes, no way it's worse than destiny.
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Nov 11, 2023 03:18
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NikkolasKing posted:The Winner is the best Gundam OP ever. The Winner is Danger Zone for anime, and goes a long way toward giving 0083 its "Top Gun(dam)" status.
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Nov 11, 2023 03:31
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It's incredible that both Anime Top Guns are better than Top Gun. At least Maverick did justice to the idea
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Nov 11, 2023 03:43
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Top Gun is a great movie shut yo mouth. It's certainly more entertaining on a moment to moment basis than 0083. Though Macross Plus is better than both.
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Nov 11, 2023 03:53
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Arc Hammer posted:Top Gun is a great movie shut yo mouth. It's certainly more entertaining on a moment to moment basis than 0083.
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Nov 11, 2023 04:20
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I love 0083 and is what got me into Gundam along with Wing and G
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Nov 11, 2023 04:20
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0083 has both one of the Most Gundam Names Ever, South Burning, and at least one very good line, "I'm the enemy you idiot!". And, yes, it also has The Winner.
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Nov 11, 2023 04:39
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Hellioning posted:0083 has both one of the Most Gundam Names Ever, South Burning, and at least one very good line, "I'm the enemy you idiot!". When I watched Gundam 0083, the thing that surprised me was how good the first two episodes are. It goes downhill in a hurry (although it keeps its looks throughout), but it kicks off as one of the best Gundam shows in general, and that both makes it easier to recommend, and more disappointing in how it goes.
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Nov 11, 2023 06:35
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i don't know if i'd call 0083 "good" or "well written" but i am enjoying it a lot
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Nov 11, 2023 08:19
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ImpAtom posted:It's also why he hates Orb so hard in Destiny because post-SEED they went back to 'upholding their ideals' until (again, from his perspective) the buckled under the slightest pressure from the EA and began to work towards the genociding again, so as near as he can tell Orb's ideals only stand up when it is convenient. (And this is something Cagalli had to struggle with BECAUSE last time her father upheld his ideals it got Orb taken over and hosed up.) The way SEED portrayed Cagalli's dad choosing to die alongside all his supporters as this noble moment of redemption was so stupid. All it did was ensure that by the time Destiny rolled in, Cagalli had no political allies and had to marry a political rival's failson if it meant securing her position as Orb's leader. The fact no one acknowledged it or had Cagalli be bitter about her dad leaving her in a pit of vipers is another one of Destiny's weird writing issues.
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Nov 11, 2023 09:57
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I’d like to remind people of the manga 0083 Rebellion which is absolutely excellent and includes the side story in which Monsha gets a lovely redemption arc stopping a third colony drop in 0084 by the Neo Delaz Fleet led by a be-masked Gato clone.
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Nov 11, 2023 15:18
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amigolupus posted:The way SEED portrayed Cagalli's dad choosing to die alongside all his supporters as this noble moment of redemption was so stupid. All it did was ensure that by the time Destiny rolled in, Cagalli had no political allies and had to marry a political rival's failson if it meant securing her position as Orb's leader. The fact no one acknowledged it or had Cagalli be bitter about her dad leaving her in a pit of vipers is another one of Destiny's weird writing issues. I think, though it isn't well conveyed, that is what the Akatsuki is supposed to be. He leaves a message that amounts to "I am sorry, I was wrong, it isn't wrong to want to fight for your ideals, I am leaving you this in the hopes you'll never need it, but if you do I am supporting what you wanted." Why he had this thought process early enough to commission a top of the line super powerful mobile suit for Cagalli but not early enough to like... maybe not stay behind and die in fire is another question entirely. Basically Cagalli's entire arc from SEED to Destiny is everyone telling her she shouldn't be fighting, she doesn't understand why she's fighting, she should let others fight, it is wrong to fight, etc, etc, and it all comes to a climax with the Akatsuki being her biggest critic going "Nah, I was wrong, you should fight for what is right" and it makes total sense up until the moment she gives the loving mobile suit away. And it sucks because even as annoying as what happened with early Cagalli is, it would have at least paid off if she'd actually gotten to finish her loving arc. (I know people point to Shinn but Cagalli's writing in Destiny is easily the part I hate the most.)
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Nov 11, 2023 15:35
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https://twitter.com/Suntchannel/status/1723144223854404085?s=20
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Nov 11, 2023 17:46
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ManSedan posted:I’d like to remind people of the manga 0083 Rebellion which is absolutely excellent and includes the side story in which Monsha gets a lovely redemption arc stopping a third colony drop in 0084 by the Neo Delaz Fleet led by a be-masked Gato clone. Rebellion Monsha doesn't need a redemption arc of any sort, since he's a pretty cool dude from the jump and is more of a big brother/mentor figure to Kou than Burning is, mostly because his initial hazing of Kou stops at "you know, kid, you're actually pretty good, let's see how you cook" once they have their initial spat instead of Monsha being a complete shithead who actively tries to kill Kou out of jealousy by doing things like turning the landing lights off while Kou is trying to land their only core fighter.
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Nov 11, 2023 17:51
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lmao at this one too: https://twitter.com/suntchannel/status/1721468257712877624
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Nov 11, 2023 18:14
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I haven't read Rebellion but for as good as people say it is I have to question it when they mention a spoiler of a 0084 repeat colony drop with another Delaz Fleet and another Gato except this time instead of Kou its frigging Monsha as the hero. None of those things sound good at all.
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Nov 11, 2023 18:18
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jackhunter64 posted:lmao at this one too: lmao
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Nov 11, 2023 18:19
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ninjewtsu posted:i don't know if i'd call 0083 "good" or "well written" but i am enjoying it a lot it's just fun and ends before it can get actually bad
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Nov 11, 2023 18:36
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Warmachine posted:The Winner is Danger Zone for anime, and goes a long way toward giving 0083 its "Top Gun(dam)" status. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGIPa9s1HDg 
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Nov 11, 2023 19:00
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I miss the old youtube video that synced up Danger Zone perfectly with the 0083 OP but it's been delisted for years. The new one you've got is good but not as good. Heading into twilight spreading out her wings tonight (Albion opens its wings and launches for space) She's got you jumping off the deck, shove it into overdrive (GP-01 leaps off the Albion flight deck)
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Nov 11, 2023 19:10
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Arc Hammer posted:I miss the old youtube video that synced up Danger Zone perfectly with the 0083 OP but it's been delisted for years. The new one you've got is good but not as good. gently caress, I know exactly the one you mean. I might have it on my old drives somewhere.
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Nov 11, 2023 19:11
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0083 Rebellion definitely loses a lot of steam as "a good redo of 0083" but it still manages to flesh out a lot of stuff. Some of it was merely implied in the anime but it also just paints a very different final arc and resolution as a result of character development going very differently.
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Nov 11, 2023 22:06
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Arc Hammer posted:I haven't read Rebellion but for as good as people say it is I have to question it when they mention a spoiler of a 0084 repeat colony drop with another Delaz Fleet and another Gato except this time instead of Kou its frigging Monsha as the hero. None of those things sound good at all. Monsha in Rebellion is a completely different character than anime Monsha and is actually a decent guy instead of a horrid shithead, so him doing cool things is actually cool.
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Nov 12, 2023 00:02
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Kanos posted:Monsha in Rebellion is a completely different character than anime Monsha and is actually a decent guy instead of a horrid shithead, so him doing cool things is actually cool. Sure but doing a repeat of the 0083 colony drop with Delaz Fleet 2 and Gato 2 in 0084 doesn't sound cool. It sounds creatively bankrupt.
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Nov 12, 2023 00:18
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Arc Hammer posted:Sure but doing a repeat of the 0083 colony drop with Delaz Fleet 2 and Gato 2 in 0084 doesn't sound cool. It sounds creatively bankrupt.
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Nov 12, 2023 01:18
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