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Mega Comrade posted:I thought the peace process was making real headway in the 90s? Then Hamas who was against any kind of two state solution did a load of bus bombings and allowed Bibi, who was seen as an extremest at the time, to slither his way into power in Israel? Hamas didn't carry out that bloody wave of mid-90s terrorism in response to the Oslo Accords. They did in in response to the bloody wave of Israeli right-wing terrorism that was in response to the Oslo Accords, as well as the Israeli government's reluctance to take any action against the settlements even when settler leaders were openly praising these terrorist attacks. In particular, the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre and its aftermath were the trigger of a big change in Hamas' attitude. The Chief Rabbi of the settlement Goldstein lived in declared him to be a "holier martyr than all the holy martyrs of the holocaust", and Goldstein was buried next to the Meir Kahane Memorial Park, with a plaque near his grave commemorating "the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people". His grave became a pilgrimage site, and to this day he's venerated as a hero by the Israeli far right; the current Minister of National Security used to have a portrait of Goldstein in his living room. Moreover, much of the Palestinian population suspected some level of Israeli collusion in the massacre. In particular, the actions of the IDF drew quite a bit of scrutiny. Although the IDF had stationed a number of armed soldiers there, none of them did anything to stop or hinder Goldstein, despite the fact that he was openly carrying a weapon as he walked in. In the end, he was eventually overwhelmed by the crowd, who got no help at all from the soldiers who were supposedly there to prevent violence. Moreover, there were numerous witness reports that at least one of the guards panicked and shot at least one Palestinian during the event - Israel denies this and no conclusive proof ever emerged, but it was plausible enough that the Palestinians believed it despite Israel's objections. There were even reports that Goldstein had an accomplice among the soldiers. On top of that, survivors claimed that Israeli roadblocks and checkpoints had delayed the transportation of the wounded to the hospital, leading to further deaths. And when the Palestinian population started rioting in response to reports of the massacre, the IDF violently suppressed the riots, 20 more people were killed and more than a hundred were injured. And to put a cherry on top of it all, multiple soldiers testified in the inquiry afterward that police and soldiers in the West Bank had standing orders to never shoot at settlers no matter what, even if those settlers were shooting at unarmed Palestinian civilians. To be clear, with the benefit of hindsight, I don't think the Israeli government or IDF were actually in league with Goldstein. If they were, it would have come out by now. It's not unusual for witnesses to make mistakes in chaotic situations and swear they saw poo poo that absolutely didn't happen, and the IDF's ineffectiveness can be credited to a standing assumption that only Arabs were terrorists and that they'd never have to worry about Jews committing crimes. However, I can't exactly blame the Palestinian population for finding the witness reports more plausible than IDF denials either. Before that, Hamas didn't target civilians. The first Hamas suicide bombing came a month and a half after Goldstein's massacre. For us, the massacre was just another terrorist attack. But for the Palestinians, it was a Big Deal. A settler wearing a military uniform and openly carrying a gun walked right through all the security checkpoints and indiscriminately slaughtered Palestinians, while the armed IDF guards placed there "to prevent violence" did nothing or even contributed to the body count. Yawgmoft posted:So what you're saying is Biden is to the right of both Reagan and Begin when it comes to indiscriminately bombing innocent people. Yikes. Considering Begin's record, I don't think that's the right interpretation. Rather than that, it's that he places more importance on pretending that he doesn't bomb innocent people. Having been tasked with the difficult job of keeping up international support while his roving racist death squads were openly massacring entire villages, he got quite good about lying about killing innocent people. Meanwhile, US politicians had a tendency to half-rear end it, especially back during the Cold War.
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Nov 17, 2023 19:08
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Sephyr posted:So it really seems that the endgame of this operation is to cleanse Gaza into Egypt/wherever, while besieging the West Bank, splitting it into one or two new Gaza-style ghettos, and prepare to purge those too when the next oportunity/excuse presents itself. That's wild. Any other info on the repatriated Palestinians, like how many are there in general?
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Nov 17, 2023 19:12
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I did not say Whiteness only exists in America. Please stop making up dumb poo poo and ascribing it to me. I say enough dumb poo poo that you don't have to make anything up. 'Anti-White racism' doesn't exist as a political question in South Africa or Zimbabwe, Australia? Not everything is about your lovely loving country. And no, you're absolutely wrong that Israel is particularly concerned about the supremacy of Jewish over non-Jewish people. It is concerned about Israeli Jewish supremacy over Palestinian or more broadly Arab and Persian non-Jewish populations. Israel has all the time in the world for White christians, and even cozies up to Hitlerite Hindutva freaks who serve the same White supremacist order, they even support radical Islamic organisations in Xinjiang to the same ends. If you can't imagine a world in which you are not the owner of something, but treated equally as well as the owner, your friends must be lovely hosts. Or you must be a lovely guest.
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Nov 17, 2023 19:15
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MadSparkle posted:That's wild. Any other info on the repatriated Palestinians, like how many are there in general? About 40 managed to get out in this batch, and there's talk that 50+ of their relatives may be able to leave as well, if things don't explode in southern Gaza. Even more managed to escape through the West Bank when hostilities started. https://www.correiobraziliense.com.br/brasil/2023/11/6656598-brasileiros-repatriados-de-gaza-recebem-ameacas-pf-vai-investigar.html The fulcrum of the case is Hasan Rabee, a brazilian-palestinian that went moderately viral posting pictures and videos of the war and is now in Brazil. He and others received so many death threats that the federal police has assigned special protection.
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Nov 17, 2023 19:26
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:'Anti-White racism' doesn't exist as a political question in South Africa or Zimbabwe, Australia? Not everything is about your lovely loving country. I don't think there are s lot of anti-White racists in those countries, I think there are just people trying to assert their rights against White supremacy. I'm sure some of them say "ugh I hate white people" or whatever but there's no structure to give it power. I don't know why you're so concerned about it, especially in the Israel thread, it's a derailment. quote:And no, you're absolutely wrong that Israel is particularly concerned about the supremacy of Jewish over non-Jewish people. Israel is a Jewish supremacist state which has passed numerous laws and promoted many institutions pioritizing the rights, welfare, and land claims of Jews over those of non-Jews. quote:If you can't imagine a world in which you are not the owner of something, but treated equally as well as the owner, your friends must be lovely hosts. Or you must be a lovely guest. Ownership of land is an idea that was invented by men to justify abuse of other men on that land. To say "I own this land" is to make a claim that you can exploit and control still it in ways that others can't. If everyone on the land has the same rights and responsibilities, then there can't be a particular one of them who owns it. "This land is owned by a certain ethnicity" is a particularly dangerous idea, I don't see the benefit of it or how it can be applied in a legal framework without essentializing individual peoples' ethnic identities. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 19:30
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I don't think there are s lot of anti-White racists in those countries, I think there are just people trying to assert their rights against White supremacy. I'm sure some of them say "ugh I hate white people" or whatever but there's no structure to give it power. I don't know why you're so concerned about it, especially in the Israel thread, it's a derailment. quote:Israel is a Jewish supremacist state which has passed numerous laws and promoted many institutions pioritizing the rights, welfare, and land claims of Jews over those of non-Jews. quote:Ownership of land is an idea that was invented by men to justify abuse of other men on that land. To say "I own this land" is to make a claim that you can exploit and control still it in ways that others can't. If everyone on the land has the same rights and responsibilities, then there's not a single one of them who owns it. This is the most burger-brained anarchist poo poo I've ever read. Learn how to receive hospitality. Equality does not mean equalitarianism. Not everyone is the same or has the same responsibilities or relationship to the land, but everyone can be treated equally well.
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Nov 17, 2023 19:42
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Sephyr posted:About 40 managed to get out in this batch, and there's talk that 50+ of their relatives may be able to leave as well, if things don't explode in southern Gaza. Even more managed to escape through the West Bank when hostilities started. I had no idea, thanks so much for this.
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Nov 17, 2023 19:45
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:[Post on this same.page] I don't think ownership allows for equality between owner and tenant. The function of ownership is to clarify and structure the inequality of power - the owner can expel the tenant but not vice-versa, the owner can make decisions regarding stewardship of the land that the tenant can't. If the owner and tenant relate to the land on the same way, there's equality but not ownership. If they relate to the land in different ways, there's ownership but not equality. You reference the case of hospitality - there's certainly not equality between guest and host, they have different rights and responsibilities. The owner can set rules that the guest must follow, the guest can expect hospitality from the host that the host can't expect from the guest. That's not equality, and the idea of a "host ethnicity" and "guest ethnicity" strikes me as deeply foreboding. Guests do not have the right to indefinitely live on the land of their hosts. But everyone born in a place should have the right to live there indefinitely, regardless of ethnicity. I don't think this is anarchist thought, but I wouldn't know, I don't read anarchist thought. In this context I don't know how "this ethnicity owns the land" can coexist with equality. It seems like you think there could be equality here, to me it seems like obvious inequality, because ownership is an inequality. And if the ownership is racialized then the inequality is racialized. I don't want a state to reinforce that. But if being a member of Ethnicity X does not give me any legal/economic dis/advantages then it seems like Ethnicity X doesn't own anything, because ownership is nothing if not a legal/economic dis/advantage. Obviously I am a stupid American and you aren't. I'm sorry I provoked your anger with the way I talked about your ideas, or with my own misunderstanding. This should be s conversation and not an angry argument. I have a sincere interest in your ideas, because we seem to share the same general ideas around social equality, but you think something is possible that I don't think is possible. Please, help me understand how a state can balance "this ethnicity literally owns all the land that we are on" and "all ethnicities have the same rights." I don't see how it works out unless "owns the land" is so limited that it's virtually metaphorical (like a right of return and pro-indigenous cultural policy). The fact that I can't imagine it obviously doesn't mean that it can't happen, I'm asking you to show me how it would work on the practical level of legal implementation. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 20:14
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Civilized Fishbot posted:If "Palestinian state" just means "a state located in Palestine" then there is currently a single Palestinian state, it's the apartheid state of Israel. My dude. I get it that you are trying as hard as you can to ignore the "protections and equality for all" part of the original statement, and fair, if I was trying to defend the positions you are, I'd be ignoring it too. But there literally are two states in the Palestine region, one of which is called the State of Palestine and is recognized by the UN.
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Nov 17, 2023 21:06
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Muscle Tracer posted:My dude. I get it that you are trying as hard as you can to ignore the "protections and equality for all" part of the original statement, and fair, if I was trying to defend the positions you are, I'd be ignoring it too. But there literally are two states in the Palestine region, one of which is called the State of Palestine. That government is a subject of the Israeli state, and its independence is a legal fiction that facilitates its presence at the UN (good) and Zionist delusion about the occupation (bad). The reality of Palestine is a one-state reality: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/middle-east/israel-palestine-one-state-solution quote:It is past time to grapple with what a one-state reality means for policy, politics, and analysis. Palestine is not a state in waiting, and Israel is not a democratic state incidentally occupying Palestinian territory. All the territory west of the Jordan River has long constituted a single state under Israeli rule, where the land and the people are subject to radically different legal regimes, and Palestinians are permanently treated as a lower caste. Policymakers and analysts who ignore this one-state reality will be condemned to failure and irrelevance, doing little beyond providing a smokescreen for the entrenchment of the status quo. I'm not "trying as hard as you can to ignore the "protections and equality for all" part of the original statement," I just don't have a question about it, because it's clear what you mean and I agree with it. When you say "Palestinian state" it's not clear what you mean. It could mean "a state in Palestine," it could mean "a state with some essential Palestinian character written into the constitution," it could mean "a democratic state where Palestinians happen to be the majority." I ask because I don't know. People use "Jewish state" to mean a lot of different things, and "Palestinian state" can have all those meanings plus more because Palestine is also a place. I don't know what positions you think I'm trying to defend. I think the important thing is that the Israeli terror campaign ends and that we find some government setup that restores safety and dignity to the Palestinians and everyone else who's been deprived of it by the state of Israel. I think the most ideal way to do it is a Communist state that doesn't care what ethnicity anyone is and practices total open borders, but whatever stops the bombing is the thing that should happen immediately. If we are talking about what ideally comes next then I'm going to be nitpicky because we're talking about ideals, but whatever ends the murder fastest is what should happen now. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 21:15
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I don't think ownership allows for equality between owner and tenant. The function of ownership is to clarify and structure the inequality of power - the owner can expel the tenant but not vice-versa, the owner can make decisions regarding stewardship of the land that the tenant can't. If the owner and tenant relate to the land on the same way, there's equality but not ownership. If they relate to the land in different ways, there's ownership but not equality. You reference the case of hospitality - there's certainly not equality between guest and host, they have different rights and responsibilities. The owner can set rules that the guest must follow, the guest can expect hospitality from the host that the host can't expect from the guest. That's not equality, and the idea of a "host ethnicity" and "guest ethnicity" strikes me as deeply foreboding. Guests do not have the right to indefinitely live on the land of their hosts. But everyone born in a place should have the right to live there indefinitely, regardless of ethnicity. Justice and equality are not amnesiatic. History won't start when the conflict ends. You can't just declare everyone to have equal rights and then expect that a just outcome will follow. Unequal treatment towards the goal of equal/equivalent outcomes isn't against the principles of equality. Obviously redistribution of land and wealth would have to be a part of any just anti-colonial Palestinian state. I honestly don't know how you could follow the Israel-Palestine conflict (or any anti-colonial struggle) if you can't imagine that a spiritual connection to land is an important part of the national and cultural identity, when one of the major national awakenings of Palestine was having their land and homes torn from them. It is important that the historical injustice of having that ownership cruelly denied is righted through at least an acknowledgement in a future constitution that Israel had no right to the lands it colonised or claims to indigeneity.
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Nov 17, 2023 22:02
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I honestly don't know how you could follow the Israel-Palestine conflict (or any anti-colonial struggle) if you can't imagine that a spiritual connection to land is an important part of the national and cultural identity, when one of the major national awakenings of Palestine was having their land and homes torn from them. That's the thing, my experience of watching Zionism has been that the state's respect for "a national identity based on spiritual connection to the land" has resulted in the mass displacement and abuse of people who lack that identity. No doubt that the spiritual connection is very real and powerful - Jewish religion is obsessed with the land of Israel ever since multiple ancient violent displacements, it's why Zionists ended up in Palestine and not somewhere else - but the state's integration of it into the legal code has produced a lot of evil and no good. What it has taught me is that the state should not be allowed to decide what ethnicities are entitled to what, or which ethnicities belong where. The state should not give people rights and responsibilities (including ownership of land) because of what ethnicity they are. Again this is my experience watching Zionism play out: the state's attempts to validate these policies through indigeneity claims have produced a strange form of archeological race science (which nation is how old, which nation has roots where, which nation is a real nation). The results of this work are prioritized over individual rights (and class struggle). I think the problem here isn't even that this archeology-ideology is incorrect, because another nation is the REAL true owner of the land. If there had never ever been a Jew who ever left Israel, they were as indigenous as you could possibly imagine, and all the Palestinians were Europeans who just arrived yesterday, it would not at all - not at all - reduce the outrage of what Israel subjects Palestinians to, every day. It would not at all - not at all - change the right of every Palestinian to live in Palestine in safety and dignity. The key falsehood in Israeli indigeneity rhetoric isn't the claim to be indigenous, it's the idea that the indigeneity claim validates apartheid. Again this is what I believe from spending my life seeing Israel deploy these ideas. Obviously you have a different vision and I want to hear about it. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It is important that the historical injustice of having that ownership cruelly denied is righted through at least an acknowledgement in a future constitution that Israel had no right to the lands it colonised or claims to indigeneity. This sounds like a land acknowledgement, it's obviously correct but it doesn't sound anywhere near respecting Palestinians as the actual present-day owners of all of Palestine. Ownership isn't a document admitting that you *ought* to have control, ownership is actual control. If you just mean "the post-Zionist state in Palestine should be loud and clear about the wild brutality of injustice that was dealt to the Palestinians from the Nakba to the present, with many statements and reconciliation committees and reparations and more, celebrating the Palestinian struggle and condemning Zionist oppression," I obviously enthusiastically agree but I don't think that's anything close to the Palestinians owning Palestine. Ownership without control isn't ownership. EDIT: see HonorableTB's post below, that's what I'm saying. A land acknowledgement isn't the restoration of ownership, it's just a confession to theft. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 22:24
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As a native American I have always found land acknowledgements to be eye rolling performative cringe. Thanks for acknowledging you stole our poo poo. Maybe give it back? No? You're just going out of your way to say you know it was bad and illegal to do? Ok
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Nov 17, 2023 22:58
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i'm an indigenous australian and i think the acknowledgement in and of itself doesn't accomplush much, but it's the first level of understanding you have to operate on before the reconciliation process can actually happen. i'm not here to punish people for the sins of their fathers, but recognising the consequences of the sins their fathers committed is necessary for the conversation to move forward.
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Nov 17, 2023 23:02
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HonorableTB posted:As a native American I have always found land acknowledgements to be eye rolling performative cringe. Thanks for acknowledging you stole our poo poo. Maybe give it back? No? You're just going out of your way to say you know it was bad and illegal to do? The local indie theater near me always plays one and it seems really classless to have it slapped up there between coming attractions and the turn off your phones warning.
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Nov 17, 2023 23:03
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This is a real banger from my state I don't want to derail further but I feel a strong empathy with Palestinians. I'm not being bombed, but the only reason I'm not is because all the comparative bombing was already done before I was born and by the time I came along the ethnic cleansing was complete. Our current reality is the eventual Palestinian one, if they're lucky.
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Nov 17, 2023 23:08
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I'm glad I said that what was needed was a toothless land acknowledgement and not land and wealth redistribution to the colonised in addition to repudiating the myths of Israeli indigeneity. Please actually read what I write.
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Nov 17, 2023 23:09
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I said come in! posted:Its all Hezbollah, but Israel badly wants Lebanon to become Israel territory as well. Israel is already trying to fabricate reasons to go to war in Lebanon next. Yeah, as if them dudes lobbing rockets at Israel from Lebanon is not reason enough already...
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Nov 17, 2023 23:12
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I'm glad I said that what was needed was a toothless land acknowledgement and not land and wealth redistribution to the colonised. I think even mass redistribution of Palestinian land to individual Palestinian people (which obviously needs to happen) is not equivalent to "the Palestinians, as an ethnic entity, own Palestine." Most land in France is owned by French people. The French, as an ethnic entity, do not own France. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:in addition to repudiating the myths of Israeli indigeneity. Please actually read what I write. I promise you I'm reading what you're writing. What I tried to express is that I don''t think the problem with Israel is that they actually aren't indigenous, I think the problem with Israel is that it's an apartheid state which is committing ethnic cleansing. Obviously I'm biased because I'm not indigenous to anywhere. But I think even if the Israelis were exactly as indigenous as they consider themselves it wouldn't matter, it would still be an abominable state. I think engage the State of Israel as if Jewish indigeneity is the big question is to accept Zionist framing, and it's getting lost in the question of who was living where 200/2000 years ago and who has cultural continuity from whom, instead of basic questions of whether the State of Israel's structure demands the displacement and abuse of innocent people. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 23:12
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Viller posted:Yeah, as if them dudes lobbing rockets at Israel from Lebanon is not reason enough already... Went great for the IDF last time they tried. dont think they would do any better while actively engaged in Gaza. punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 23:16
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Just saw an email from normally really good reporter Chris Hedges inviting Max Blumenthal on his podcast. It super bums me out that the almost complete silence from mainstream media about Israeli atrocities is leading to people platforming and sharing stuff from the Grayzone and similar outlets. Just cause they're right on this one doesn't mean you have to hand it to Max Blumenthal.
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Nov 17, 2023 23:24
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think even mass redistribution of Palestinian land to individual Palestinian people (which obviously needs to happen) is not equivalent to "the Palestinians, as an ethnic entity, own Palestine." They are an apartheid state because they are colonisers! Without the Zionist colonial project they would simply exist as refugees and descendents of refugees in an Arab majority country. Of course the loving French own France, just as the Vietnamese came to own Vietnam when they kicked out the French. Obviously 'French' and 'Vietnamese' are not static and unchanging identities, just as Palestinian isn't. But it would be up to the Palestinian state to determine those matters and how it interacted with the right to return, and I honestly can't say I give too much of a gently caress if it weren't fair to Israelis.
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Nov 17, 2023 23:28
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think even mass redistribution of Palestinian land to individual Palestinian people (which obviously needs to happen) is not equivalent to "the Palestinians, as an ethnic entity, own Palestine." The cool thing about ethnic cleansing is that if you're successful with it, you can be as indigenous as you want because there's no one left that can say you aren't. Palestinians? What Palestinians? Yeah there's a few of them around but if they were here first don't you'd think there'd be more of them?
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Nov 17, 2023 23:30
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Of course the loving French own France, just as the Vietnamese came to own Vietnam when they kicked out the French. This isn't true. People of French or Vietnamese ethnicity don't have unique rights in either country. If they're citizens, they relate to all property like any citizen - if they're not citizens, they relate to all property like any non-citizen. There also isn't any authority given power by the law to act on behalf of a certain ethnicity. A state where an ethnicity actually owns the land is Israel. The explicit mission of the State of Israel is to maintain the control of Jews, as an ethnic entity, over the land. This is the task of Zionism and it's enscribed into the law - "Israel is the historic homeland of the Jewish people and they have an exclusive right to national self-determination in it." It's abhorrent and shouldn't be replicated anywhere. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I honestly can't say I give too much of a gently caress if it weren't fair to Israelis. I think German and Japanese people in World War Two were entitled to fair treatment and so are modern Israelis. People should not be punished for being in the wrong culture or ethnicity. ungulateman posted:as a fun fact: i found out recently that albert einstein, well-known socialist and apparently also a scientist, thought that the jewish people should have migrated to a palestinian state and become citizens of it instead of what happened. A few years prior to that, he described Menachem Begin's party as "a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties." He was right! He also described himself as a Zionist, but back then that was compatible with Jews moving en masse to Palestine like libertarians moving en masse to New Hampshire. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 23:41
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as a fun fact: i found out recently that albert einstein, well-known socialist and apparently also a scientist, thought that the jewish people should have migrated to a palestinian state and become citizens of it instead of what happened. david ben gurion even offered him the israeli presidency (a ceremonial title but a pretty lofty one) and he turned it down lol
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Nov 17, 2023 23:43
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LionYeti posted:Just saw an email from normally really good reporter Chris Hedges inviting Max Blumenthal on his podcast. It super bums me out that the almost complete silence from mainstream media about Israeli atrocities is leading to people platforming and sharing stuff from the Grayzone and similar outlets. Just cause they're right on this one doesn't mean you have to hand it to Max Blumenthal. This isn't new and it's not caused by the current conflict. Hedges worked for RT for years.
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Nov 17, 2023 23:46
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ungulateman posted:david ben gurion even offered him the israeli presidency (a ceremonial title but a pretty lofty one) and he turned it down lol
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Nov 17, 2023 23:48
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Civilized Fishbot posted:This isn't true. People of French or Vietnamese ethnicity don't have unique rights in either country. If they're citizens, they relate to all property like any citizen - if they're not citizens, they relate to all property like any non-citizen. There also isn't any authority given power by the law to act on behalf of a certain ethnicity. Like, you've said you read my posts and then just argue nonsense. Maybe my point was unclear, Palestinian is not always going to be only an ethnicity. It's an ethnicity now because they have been denied a state and are colonised.
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Nov 17, 2023 23:49
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Like, you've said you read my posts and then just argue nonsense. Maybe my point was unclear, Palestinian is not always going to be only an ethnicity. It's an ethnicity now because they have been denied a state and are colonised. I suppose you could even take it further and say that instead of Palestine being denied a state, they HAD a state and then had it taken from them. Unless someone wants to argue that Mandatory Palestine wasn't really Palestinian because of British colonialism which I guess is a valid argument to make but to me the Mandate was very much a cohesive, functioning nation-state that lacked independence.
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Nov 17, 2023 23:56
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Discendo Vox posted:This isn't new and it's not caused by the current conflict. Hedges worked for RT for years. Fair, I'm just seeing a lot more GrayZone out there then I have before.
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Nov 18, 2023 00:00
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Like, you've said you read my posts and then just argue nonsense. Maybe my point was unclear, Palestinian is not always going to be only an ethnicity. It's an ethnicity now because they have been denied a state and are colonised. Okay I think this is where I misunderstood. Thank you for your patience, I promise I am trying, I'm just a stupid American. If I understand you: your vision is basically that "Palestinian" becomes a national identity representing the multiethnic country of Palestine - so there would be ethnically-Palestinian Palestinians but also Russian Palestinians, Moroccan Palestinians, Ethiopian Palestinians, Druze Palestinians etc. There would again be Palestinian Jews, a national-ethnic identity that disappeared with the rise of Zionism. If so I think this would be great. But, and I'm just trying to keep all this straight in my head, you're not talking about Russian Palestinians when you say "the Palestinian people are the indigenous owners of the land." In that case you're saying it's a specific ethnicity that owns the land, right? Or are Ethiopian Palestinians indigenous to Palestine etc? I still don't think ethnicities can or should own anything, especially land. But if "owns the land" is just s metaphorical way of talking about what you described earlier, like massive reparations of money and property to people who suffered, that's great. BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I thought Einstein was supposed to be really smart and he turned down a presidency? Pfft. Way to go, Einstein! One reason he gave was that a man in his 70s is too old to be president. What a dumbass. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 18, 2023 00:01
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Okay I think this is where I misunderstood. Thank you for your patience, I promise I am trying, I'm just a stupid American. Yes, essentially
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Nov 18, 2023 00:04
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Yes, essentially Okay I'm sorry I misunderstood. In my defense, or at least to explain, literally my entire life, and especially lately, I have heard a billion insane variations of the idea that the State of Israel can simultaneously acknowledge one particular ethnicity as the rightful one that owns the whole country AND function as a liberal democracy (obviously it can't). Often people who talk.rhks way are obsessed with Israeli indigeneity. So when you said something that could be interpreted as making the same claim but with the actual ethnic community which is currently indigenous to the land, I sorted it into that file, as the smarter version of a dumb and dangerous idea. Obviously where I screwed up is that you were using Palestinian sometimes to mean that particular indigenous ethnic community and sometimes to mean everyone governed by a decent state in Palestine.l, and I didn't catch this, because I'm so used to people being stupid and racial-essentialist in a particular way that I've lost my benefit of the doubt. Thank you for laying out what you believe here. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 18, 2023 00:14
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Viller posted:Yeah, as if them dudes lobbing rockets at Israel from Lebanon is not reason enough already... Its absolutely not reason enough lol. Israel has already released a statement that they don't care about that, and will just collectively punish Lebanon next.
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Nov 18, 2023 00:50
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HonorableTB posted:As a native American I have always found land acknowledgements to be eye rolling performative cringe. Thanks for acknowledging you stole our poo poo. Maybe give it back? No? You're just going out of your way to say you know it was bad and illegal to do?
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Nov 18, 2023 05:05
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Hobologist posted:The one key difference is that you have the consolation prize of being a US citizen. So technically we don't have to give it back because you already have it. The one state solution seems to be dead and buried as far as Israel is concerned, so Israel is not willing to extend even that concession. In what way do they "already have it"?
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Nov 18, 2023 06:10
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We "have it" in the sense of we have been successfully assimilated as a pacified minority group, ie the hallmark of a successful ethnic cleansing. You don't have to always get rid of them all, you can just get rid of enough of them that their culture and way of life get dominated and subsumed into the colonizing state's. We are given US citizenship because functionally speaking the native nations are extinct and there only exists US citizenship as a possibility. Manifest Destiny was a profoundly successful policy as far as colonization was concerned. But ultimately yes, the key difference is that we are citizens in law of the colonizing state whereas Palestinians are not. They're in the stage of ethnic cleansing where they are being othered into subservience, it's earlier in the process E: tribal sovereignty of course makes this an issue with layers to it and that is way beyond the scope of this thread so i won't go there E2: native issues in general is something that might be worth a thread of its own if there isn't already one. I'll write up an OP tomorrow and post one and see if there's any interest in it HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 18, 2023 06:15
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Stringent posted:I'm not picking on you Cuddle, this was just a useful segue to a question I wanted to ask. In the current political environment of the world that we find ourselves in at the moment, what act of resistance by an oppressed people would not be called terrorism? Well in the UK they've just charged protestors with terrorism for things like carrying signs and stopping traffic so...
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Nov 18, 2023 10:12
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:Well in the UK they've just charged protestors with terrorism for things like carrying signs and stopping traffic so... I think those were the climate ones though? Few hundred people did get charged with support for banned organisations, but that's not based on disorder or protesting as such. Bunch of rightwing counter-protesters also got charged for various forms of disorder. In general UK seems to be more lenient/receptive on pro-palestinian views than France or Germany.
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Nov 18, 2023 10:16
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Im just saying it's literally whatever the state wants/thinks it can get away with.
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Nov 18, 2023 10:46
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