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pixel bitches posted:Did ppl who struggled with Octopath 2 also struggle with FF6 cuz it seems to me they both suffer from this same complaint like its not like i dont understand what octopath is trying to do, its that i think its doing a poor job of it.
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Nov 24, 2023 23:56
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pixel bitches posted:Did ppl who struggled with Octopath 2 also struggle with FF6 cuz it seems to me they both suffer from this same complaint We remember vastly different games if you think FF6 wasn't full of major events where the characters interacted.
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Nov 24, 2023 23:57
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Very interesting indeed
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Nov 24, 2023 23:59
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pixel bitches posted:Video Games are not just a story telling medium. They're multimedia experiences and the writting/narrative are only a small part of that. It seems insane to me to get so hung up on a slightly unconventional narrative structure in a game like octopath 2 when everything else about the game is so strong. The writing isn't even bad lol I feel like the people who want more party interaction in the plot aren't actually clearly imagining what that would be like in practice. Basically, there's no good way to have a more "traditional" party in Octopath 2 without sacrificing something. The stories it wants to tell about each of the characters are personal stories, often with their own supporting casts. You would have to completely change the stories in order for "the entire party being involved" to make any sense. Like seriously, just imagine the whole group of 8 (or a selected 4) being there for most of the story beats - it'd suck rear end! I can understand people who want to play a game with a single party-centered story, but that would be a completely different game and would by necessity remove most of what I like about Octopath 2. The way I think of it is that the party are essentially just friends who travel with each other and discuss the events that happen with one another (and in 2 they also pair up for some separate quests). The only real issue with this interpretation is the presence of the party in story battles, but that's just one of countless gameplay abstractions and being super bothered by it is like being confused at how a character like Agnea can fight on a similar level with Throne or Hikari.
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Nov 24, 2023 23:59
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pixel bitches posted:I guess im just struggling to grasp how ppl give the narrative such importance when typically it is the least interesting thing to me about a video game, Octopath included this is like the fourth time you've said you don't understand how other people can feel differently about things than yourself in this conversation
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Nov 25, 2023 00:00
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Well if a bad story ruins a narrative heavy rpg then I'm not sure how I was able to play nearly 30 rpgs this year and be able to enjoy most of them when I would consider exactly 1 of them to have truly interesting narrative 
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Nov 25, 2023 00:02
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Ytlaya posted:I feel like the people who want more party interaction in the plot aren't actually clearly imagining what that would be like in practice. I think it wouldn't be hard to just add dialogue triggers where like, if you already have X in your party, then during this scene X might have something to say. And if Y is also in your party, maybe they both could talk about it. And maybe Z is a real rear end in a top hat and if he's in the party maybe he will argue about it, but if he wasn't in the party then there might not be any argument. There are lots of dynamic dialogue stuff you could do that wouldn't affect the actual plot in any way but add a ton of the party interaction that feels missing. credburn fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Nov 25, 2023 |
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Nov 25, 2023 00:03
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Looper posted:this is like the fourth time you've said you don't understand how other people can feel differently about things than yourself in this conversation I can understand how someone wants a good story but it's this specific conceit of "the characters don't talk to eachother" being such a huge deal that I am struggling with
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Nov 25, 2023 00:04
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Perhaps people are looking for different things in video games and while one person may like a specific video game, others may dislike them. Anyway the parties are my fav parts of jrpgs and Octopath1 not really having any party dynamics soured me on the game and I never finished it. Still kinda want to try Octopath 2 though, people seem high on it.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:05
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credburn posted:I think it wouldn't be hard to just add dialogue triggers where like, if you already have X in your party, then during this scene X might have something to say. And if Y is also in your party, maybe they both could talk about it. And maybe Z is a real rear end in a top hat and if he's in the party maybe he will argue about it, but if he wasn't in the party then there might not be any argument. There are lots of dynamic dialogue stuff you could do that wouldn't affect the actual plot in any way but add a ton of the party interaction that feels missing. Octo 2 has this with some character-specific reactions after relevant plot events in each character's story but they're unvoiced and always happen in the tavern rather than being dynamic.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:07
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I think my preferred way of doing this sort of 'anthology narrative' is something like Live a Live. Loved how that game does its distinct stories.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:08
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god imagine finding out other people exist and have their own thoughts in the loving rpg thread
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Nov 25, 2023 00:08
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credburn posted:I think it wouldn't be hard to just add dialogue triggers where like, if you already have X in your party, then during this really touching scene X might have something to say. And if Y is also in your party, maybe they both could talk about it. There's tons of dynamic dialogue stuff you could do that wouldn't affect the actual plot in any way but add a ton of the party interaction that feels missing. It would be strange for them to even be physically present in many/most of those scenes. And the game does have dialogue before/after events. More of that might be nice, but that's not what most people are talking about when they want the game to have a more "coherent party." Most of the character stories involve the characters doing things independently or with other characters important to the stories in question. It'd be strange to have the other party members along during this stuff, and it'd suck rear end if Octopath tried to do the Trails thing of having everyone standing around commenting as things happen (this isn't a criticism of Trails, but it makes more sense for those games since everyone is actually involved in the plot and supposed to be there). SyntheticPolygon posted:Perhaps people are looking for different things in video games and while one person may like a specific video game, others may dislike them. I didn't enjoy Octopath 1 at all mainly because I just didn't find it's various plots interesting. The Octopath 2 plots are radically better.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:09
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Ytlaya posted:Basically, there's no good way to have a more "traditional" party in Octopath 2 without sacrificing something. The stories it wants to tell about each of the characters are personal stories, often with their own supporting casts. You would have to completely change the stories in order for "the entire party being involved" to make any sense. Like seriously, just imagine the whole group of 8 (or a selected 4) being there for most of the story beats - it'd suck rear end!
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Nov 25, 2023 00:09
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pixel bitches posted:Well if a bad story ruins a narrative heavy rpg then I'm not sure how I was able to play nearly 30 rpgs this year and be able to enjoy most of them when I would consider exactly 1 of them to have truly interesting narrative
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Nov 25, 2023 00:10
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i can understand why you might be struggling with this because nobody likes it when you talk to them
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Nov 25, 2023 00:10
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Ytlaya posted:Basically, there's no good way to have a more "traditional" party in Octopath 2 without sacrificing something. The stories it wants to tell about each of the characters are personal stories, often with their own supporting casts. You would have to completely change the stories in order for "the entire party being involved" to make any sense. Like seriously, just imagine the whole group of 8 (or a selected 4) being there for most of the story beats - it'd suck rear end! Ytlaya posted:Most of the character stories involve the characters doing things independently or with other characters important to the stories in question. It'd be strange to have the other party members along during this stuff, and it'd suck rear end if Octopath tried to do the Trails thing of having everyone standing around commenting as things happen (this isn't a criticism of Trails, but it makes more sense for those games since everyone is actually involved in the plot and supposed to be there). You say it'd suck rear end, I say "well, would it?" Because there's like 30-40 years of RPGs doing this exact thing well and making it enjoyable.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:12
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^^^ But they don't do the same thing? They usually have a single main plot. Octopath instead chooses to have 8 separate (but sometimes loosely related) plots. The closest thing to it I can think of is Live a Live than Endorph mentions below, and that has the key difference of not taking place across the same world map and setting/time period.Endorph posted:then why not just make them actually separate stories like live a live or something I mean, you could do that, but I guess I just don't see what the problem is with the way Octopath did it. The party interaction we do get is still enjoyable, and I like the freedom of being able to travel around and pick and choose whose story to focus on. And, probably more importantly, the stories still take place in the same world and setting. Characters have different things happen in some of the same towns and cities. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Nov 25, 2023 |
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Nov 25, 2023 00:14
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Endorph posted:then why not just make them actually separate stories like live a live or something In theory there's more gameplay options with a party that has all the PCs than one PC + a bunch of one offs?
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Nov 25, 2023 00:14
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Perhaps people are looking for different things in video games and while one person may like a specific video game, others may dislike them. For reference I'm playing Tales of Berseria at the moment and I guess the Tales series is well known for its party dynamics with the constant skits and whatnot and while they can be amusing at times mostly they're kinda grating as the characters lack any real depth and they all sorta play out in the same way. I don't think the narrative is very good, but it doesn't hinder my enjoyment of the game. I mean the combat isn't great either and it's fairly boring to look at and I definitely get ppls complaints about the sakuraba phoned-in soundtrack but... I'm still having fun?? Like I feel it's possible for a game to be mid or even kinda bad yet still be enjoyable
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Nov 25, 2023 00:15
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Endorph posted:are you intentionally being an obtuse weirdo or what What is it that you're struggling with?
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Nov 25, 2023 00:16
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pixel bitches posted:Did ppl who struggled with Octopath 2 also struggle with FF6 cuz it seems to me they both suffer from this same complaint I didn't "struggle" with it, I got bored of it. Ytlaya posted:I feel like the people who want more party interaction in the plot aren't actually clearly imagining what that would be like in practice. My ideal solution would be to let each MC have their own personal party relevant to their story. You don't need the 8 MCs to interact at all, tbh. They don't have much reason to. Heck, some of them can stay solo the whole game if that makes more sense for them.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:17
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Ytlaya posted:Characters have different things happen in some of the same towns and cities. mycot posted:In theory there's more gameplay options with a party that has all the PCs than one PC + a bunch of one offs? iunno, i dont want octopath to turn into a normal JRPG that just progresses like a tales or trails game or something, thats not what im saying. i perfectly understand what its trying to do and why. i think its execution of that isnt very good.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:17
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pixel bitches posted:What is it that you're struggling with? like personally i play video games in general largely for the story. theres a few games i mostly care about the gameplay in but if the game is putting any emphasis on story at all then that becomes extremely important to me. i have played games that were very bad because i liked the story. heck some of my favorite games of all time have terrible gameplay and thrive on story. some of my favorite games of all time, are visual novels. if you dont care about story much thats fair but theres no reason to act like the idea of other people caring a lot about it is incomprehensible. and octopath 2 clearly wants you to care about the story and characters a lot considering there's so much of it. its not like this is etrian odyssey where theres maybe 4 story significant cutscenes per game.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:19
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pixel bitches posted:For reference I'm playing Tales of Berseria at the moment and I guess the Tales series is well known for its party dynamics with the constant skits and whatnot and while they can be amusing at times mostly they're kinda grating as the characters lack any real depth and they all sorta play out in the same way. I don't think the narrative is very good, but it doesn't hinder my enjoyment of the game. I mean the combat isn't great either and it's fairly boring to look at and I definitely get ppls complaints about the sakuraba phoned-in soundtrack but... I'm still having fun?? Like I feel it's possible for a game to be mid or even kinda bad yet still be enjoyable people here are perfectly capable of criticizing games they like while enjoying them they do not need "can't we all enjoy things" reminders from the guy who once came in and said "i don't know why you'd play a type-moon game when you could read Pynchon instead"
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Nov 25, 2023 00:19
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also tales of berseria's characters have a lot of depth tbh. well the girls do. eizen and rokurou are just there to vibe.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:20
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Feels Villeneuve posted:people here are perfectly capable of criticizing games they like while enjoying them they do not need "can't we all enjoy things" reminders from the guy who once came in and said "i don't know why you'd play a type-moon game when you could read Pynchon instead" that's true. more people need to read Pynchon.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:23
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Endorph posted:you not being able to grasp that other people have different priorities and wants when they play an RPG Yeah but the stories in Octopath 2 are good. It's the "but the characters don't take part in each others stories" bit that I'm struggling to attach much importance to. It's a video game, a level of abstraction for the sake of gameplay conceits is to be expected
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Nov 25, 2023 00:24
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Srice posted:that's true. more people need to read Pynchon. hell why not both
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Nov 25, 2023 00:24
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Endorph posted:you not being able to grasp that other people have different priorities and wants when they play an RPG I like the Octopath 2 stories, though (as opposed to Octopath 1, where I was rapidly bored by the stories). I like having 8 more concise stories vs one big sprawling one. The sprawling ones can also be just as good, but it's nice to have something different. I like that I can go to do an Octopath 2 chapter and know that I'll make meaningful progress in the narrative in question. It allows most filler to be cut from each individual story. Edit: To be clear, I have zero problem with people not liking the game. I only disagree with the idea that the game's structure was some kind of mistake or that it's a "wrong way to make a JRPG." pixel bitches posted:Did ppl who struggled with Octopath 2 also struggle with FF6 cuz it seems to me they both suffer from this same complaint Tbf I got bored with FF6 but enjoyed Octopath 2. I don't think FF6's writing and gameplay hold up very well together without the nostalgia factor (and I first tried playing FF6 when I was either in late high school or college, so the early to mid aughts). They're certainly not bad by any extent of the imagination, but I kept losing interest. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Nov 25, 2023 |
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Nov 25, 2023 00:24
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pixel bitches posted:Yeah but the stories in Octopath 2 are good. It's the "but the characters don't take part in each others stories" bit that I'm struggling to attach much importance to. It's a video game, a level of abstraction for the sake of gameplay conceits is to be expected They're okay. I wouldn't say they're worth wading through infinite identical random battles for.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:24
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pixel bitches posted:Yeah but the stories in Octopath 2 are good. It's the "but the characters don't take part in each others stories" bit that I'm struggling to attach much importance to. It's a video game, a level of abstraction for the sake of gameplay conceits is to be expected
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Nov 25, 2023 00:25
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Ytlaya posted:I like the Octopath 2 stories, though (as opposed to Octopath 1, where I was rapidly bored by the stories). I like having 8 more concise stories vs one big sprawling one. The sprawling ones can also be just as good, but it's nice to have something different. I like that I can go to do an Octopath 2 chapter and know that I'll make meaningful progress in the narrative in question. It allows most filler to be cut from each individual story. quote:iunno, i dont want octopath to turn into a normal JRPG that just progresses like a tales or trails game or something, thats not what im saying. i perfectly understand what its trying to do and why. i think its execution of that isnt very good.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:26
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the whole sick crew is a jrpg party
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Nov 25, 2023 00:27
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Feels Villeneuve posted:hell why not both That's a very good question
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Nov 25, 2023 00:27
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pynchon is mediocre. have you played blaze union.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:29
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Endorph posted:that gameplay abstraction gets in the way of the stories, and also the gameplay. the stories are still decent but i dislike what surrounds them in the context of the game. most games handle that abstraction much more smoothly. How so? Which games do it better?
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Nov 25, 2023 00:29
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E. This isn't meant to be directed at fridge corn oops I like how Odin Sphere had multiple protagonists who don't meaningfully interact with each other (with a couple big exceptions) and only the omniscient player has the perspective to realize the connections between them, but it didn't pretend that Oswald met Mercedes or whatever. Maybe that's the difference.
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Nov 25, 2023 00:30
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pynchon hasn't even written a single book since xenoblade 2 dropped. shook
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Nov 25, 2023 00:30
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Like as an example: People loudly complain about FF16 not having a party but it does. You have characters who travel along with your protagonist, are part of the story, talk and interact with them and appear in cutscenes, and in general are a part of the story. You don't directly control them (Torgal aside) but they are there. Octopath 2 is the polar opposite where you directly control the party members but none of them are there. Except they are when it comes to gameplay, and gameplay in Octopath 2 is explicitly tied to story in multiple situations, it is part of what makes Octopath 2 fun. Like Casetti's ending works better when you're actually doing the mixing in-game using the mechanics you used all game, and Partitio's ending works better when you literally get the money in your inventory even if it was for a short period of time. Of the two, FF16 handles it better because the characters are involved with the story and gameplay, even if not as well as I would like, while in Octopath the characters are not involved with the story until the very end but the very end and dialogue all implies the characters have been there the entire time. Which raises questions like "Why the gently caress didn't any of them interact during horrible moments?"
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Nov 25, 2023 00:30
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