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Civilized Fishbot posted:He's an "ends justify the means" guy. I don't think that means he's apathetic to suffering, he's just willing to tolerate/encourage a lot of it in order to achieve a future where he sincerely believes there will be a lot less of it. He's wildly arrogant to play these games with people's lives, and to be so deceptive about it, but that's not the same thing as tolerance for suffering. So (and I think this is open to interpretation and debate over textual intent) but once you factor in the 'turn Martinaise into a micro narco-state' plan and the 'the hardies are disposable fools, I have a real wetwork A-team you don't see' I think a really clear pattern emerges where the better world that Evrart is building is going to be inhabited by two tiers of people - an inner useful elite whom he'll protect, and everyone else who will always be seen as disposable the moment they get in the way of his vision. And none of them will get any choice in him being in charge. Yes he's playing a dirty game and has to play dirty, and yes he will on aggregate probably make things a bit better, but Evrart does not represent a solution to the systemic problems of power and inequality and in the long run when the obviously extremely unhealthy guy in charge dies, the narco-union will almost certainly go very bad, very fast.
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Nov 24, 2023 17:56
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My own takeaway on Evrart is that he does genuinely, sincerely believe in the worker-centric rhetoric that he espouses once he thinks he’s won, but he also can’t (or doesn’t want to) admit that the “corrupt, power-hungry would-be mobster” act isn’t as much of an act as he tries to lead everyone else to believe. Sure, he goes on and on about the greater good and ends justifying the means, but… was taking out a hit on his predecessor really the only option he had available for realizing his vision, or was it just the fastest and most permanent solution he had for the ”I’m not in power yet” “problem”?
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Nov 24, 2023 18:56
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whydirt posted:Hot Take: the “nice person representing a bad system” of Joyce vs the “lovely people repping a good system” Claires is a false dichotomy manufactured by the devs and is one of the weaker parts of DE eh, it’s a dynamic that fritz fanon wrote about. colonizers can afford to appear morally upright at a much lower relative cost than the people they subjugate, and the colonized have incentive to reject the culture of the colonizers wholesale, including their moral system
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Nov 24, 2023 19:25
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Evrart is Stalin.
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Nov 24, 2023 19:25
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Regalingualius posted:Sure, he goes on and on about the greater good and ends justifying the means, but… was taking out a hit on his predecessor really the only option he had available for realizing his vision, or was it just the fastest and most permanent solution he had for the ”I’m not in power yet” “problem”? Does it matter? Does Evrart ever even claim that it was the only possible way? Alchenar posted:Yes he's playing a dirty game and has to play dirty, and yes he will on aggregate probably make things a bit better, but Evrart does not represent a solution to the systemic problems of power and inequality and in the long run when the obviously extremely unhealthy guy in charge dies, the narco-union will almost certainly go very bad, very fast. This is a very good point though, Evrart, Edgar, and Liz might be socialists, but no one else in the union really seems to be. Mañana explicitly isn't, Measurehead certainly isn't either, the Hardies only even claim to be social democrats... Even if the current union leadership is socialist, the union isn't institutionally socialist.
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Nov 24, 2023 19:48
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I mean the other angle on that is that outside of theory, socialist movements generally aren't supported or understood by the general population. You can go into a deep dive about the theoretical motivations and political outlook of someone like Manana, but that's not the point - the point is that he's someone who is just living his life, doing his job, and will ally with whatever power structure promises to put food on the table. In a way he perfectly demonstrates the difference between the communist students and someone like Evrart: the students are stuck at the furthest point on the map from everyone else, discussing what they would do in a theoretical perfect world and getting into slapfights over which branch of theory they subscribe to; while Evrart is actually doing the work of providing jobs, fighting for better conditions and trying to get a community centre built (admittedly at the expense of the people living in the shanty village across the river).
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Nov 24, 2023 20:02
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Mañana says he's a lone wolf who subscribes to whatever is easiest, which is currently working for Evrart, sure, but the nose don't lie.
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Nov 24, 2023 21:59
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Alchenar posted:So (and I think this is open to interpretation and debate over textual intent) but once you factor in the 'turn Martinaise into a micro narco-state' plan and the 'the hardies are disposable fools, I have a real wetwork A-team you don't see' I think a really clear pattern emerges where the better world that Evrart is building is going to be inhabited by two tiers of people - an inner useful elite whom he'll protect, and everyone else who will always be seen as disposable the moment they get in the way of his vision. And none of them will get any choice in him being in charge. I think this is all correct. Evrart is comparable to Stalin or Mao in the sense that he has the vision, ruthlessness, and leadership skills necessary to rapidly improve the standards of living in his zone of control, but his leadership style demands a centralization of unchecked authority that will go very wrong when he dies, if not earlier. Maybe the Evrart/Edgar system actually ameliorates some of this, because they can both check each other's worst impulses, and when one dies, it can be a sign for the other one to start setting up succession.
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Nov 24, 2023 22:14
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When you say "rapidly improve the standard of living within his zone of control" do you mean Evrart will kill all the sparrows devastating the ecology of the region and send people to work camps for life among other things?
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Nov 25, 2023 00:47
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I'm just going to assume the Claires do have a succession plan and shouldn't be compared to those two.
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Nov 25, 2023 01:01
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I think if you're looking at the Claires as an example of messy, failible actually existing socialism then their shortcomings, such as their concentration of power into a single that relies on their continued competence and benevolence to continue functioning is a fair observation to make
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Nov 25, 2023 01:23
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I'm just going to assume the Claires do have a succession plan and shouldn't be compared to those two. Isn't it implied that the Claires are grooming Elizabeth to become the next leader of the union? I swear this is stated somewhere.
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Nov 25, 2023 01:36
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That's what I assumed based on the paternal pride with which Evrart describes her, but I dunno if it's made more explicit anywhere.
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Nov 25, 2023 01:41
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I think there's a skill check that can fire during one of the post-tribunal conversations if she died that says it's going to be real blow for the Union because the Claires were clearly intending for her to take a leadership position at some point.
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Nov 25, 2023 01:49
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Oh, yeah, Kim tells you about it if she dies and he survives.
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Nov 25, 2023 02:02
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Oh gently caress, I never realized she could die.  This game's been breaking my heart and busting my balls for years, I love it.
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Nov 25, 2023 03:02
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Animal-Mother posted:Oh gently caress, I never realized she could die. I think the only way for her to die is if you take the rhetoric option with Kortanaer and then fail an easy logic check afterwards to realize that nobody ever told him his brother was shot. He get angry and shoots her. It's not something you're likely to see unless you have particularly bad luck, since it's an easier check than the one that precedes it and uses the same base stat.
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Nov 25, 2023 03:20
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Animal-Mother posted:Oh gently caress, I never realized she could die. Yes, she gets shot in the gut and she has very little time. I save scummed when she got shot in a recent playthrough and it looked like there was no way to stop her dying.
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Nov 25, 2023 03:25
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It's not related to the initial red checks; it's if you pick the standard dialogue option to say the Hardie Boys didn't do it. This will lock you into a red logic check, which is easier than the others because it kind of ambushes you. Either way it'll piss him off enough to shoot at Lizzie, but if you pass the check, he'll be distracted enough to miss.
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Nov 25, 2023 03:29
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I got the worst possible outcome at the Tribunal because I disliked Evrart enough to not bother doing the gun quest 
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Nov 25, 2023 04:21
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cock hero flux posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Kim explicitly states at one point that he formerly identified as a moralist. As in, no longer does. And when prompted to speak about moralism in the presence of Sunday Friend, gives a deliberate non-answer which one of your skills can mentally pick up as the kind of answer you give to a superior when you don't think it's wise to give your actual opinions. Combined with his choice of attire and high five technique being deliberately reminiscent of the revolutionary air brigade, and his seemingly impassioned love of Revachol apparent when racist lorry driver tries to shame him, it seems fair to say that Kim really isn't much of a moralist anymore, and likely has fairly strong communist sympathies. It's just that he doesn't go around talking about them, because he lives under a moralist regime and works for an ostensibly moralist organization, so he understandably believes that being open about what he thinks would be a mistake. He publicly presents himself as a moralist because he believes he is expected to, not because he actually is. IIRC Kim was more revolutionary in his youth but then grew into moralism as he got older. He's not really a moralist in the sense that he believes in moralism, just that he doesn't identify strongly with any political school of thought (not openly, anyway), but he's effectively a moralist because moralism is the structure he exists and works within. It's like saying everyone in the US is a capitalist, even if they don't really give a gently caress about economics because that's the system that exists here by default. If you're not actively opting into anything else, that's just where you end up by default.
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Nov 25, 2023 04:27
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Youremother posted:I got the worst possible outcome at the Tribunal because I disliked Evrart enough to not bother doing the gun quest But what about the little kiddies who could stumble upon it not knowing what it is and end up shooting themselves?! What about THEM Harry?! Look Harry I WANT to help you here, I WANT to keep the little kiddies safe
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Nov 25, 2023 04:28
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Youremother posted:I got the worst possible outcome at the Tribunal because I disliked Evrart enough to not bother doing the gun quest *Bratan*
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Nov 25, 2023 04:29
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Mañana says he's a lone wolf who subscribes to whatever is easiest, which is currently working for Evrart, sure, but the nose don't lie. Manana does outright say that he holds his own beliefs because they suit him, and that if they no longer suit him, communism is one of and probably the most likely code he'd choose instead. Fitting for a game about the breadth of ideology and human experience, people even within a movement do not come down into convenient categories. You got the academic communists who are on cooperative terms with Cindy, an anarchist and gang member graffito artist. The Union is explicitly a big tent that wants and needs useful people, not just ideologues, and employs Measurehead who is explicitly dismissive of communism and identifies most closely to fascism in his absurd ideology. Dismissing people and even movements just because they don't present in exactly the correct way you think they 'should' is the kind of thing the stupid dialogue options have you do for a reason.
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Nov 25, 2023 04:48
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christmas boots posted:IIRC Kim was more revolutionary in his youth but then grew into moralism as he got older. He's not really a moralist in the sense that he believes in moralism, just that he doesn't identify strongly with any political school of thought (not openly, anyway), but he's effectively a moralist because moralism is the structure he exists and works within. He explicitly states that he used to be an actual believing Moralist. That is, he believed in the values that the Moralintern purports to represent. And he is also states that he considers himself to be a moralist right now, in the weaker sense of someone trying to be "apolitical" while living in a moralist country.
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Nov 25, 2023 10:44
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Youremother posted:I got the worst possible outcome at the Tribunal because I disliked Evrart enough to not bother doing the gun quest Bar Ran Dun posted:*Bratan* I was confused when I went through all that rigamarole to get my gun and a couple bullets over the course of the whole game, only to never use them, ever. Still managed to save Liz, Lt. Kitsuragi, and a few of the Hardie Boys during the tribunal with the help of the game's best and most morally and politically unimpeachable character. *~Bratan~* Edit: I can't tell if you have to be on drugs to be able to do this. During my first run Harry was abusing speed pretty much the entire game because my Motoritics was abysmal, so I can't tell if the Horrific Necktie's quest lines and use at the tribunal can occur normally, or if it was the result of cramming so, so much speed. Railing Kill fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Nov 25, 2023 |
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Nov 25, 2023 13:42
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You just need sufficient Inland Empire for the tie to start talking to you. I stayed (mostly) clean through the game and followed its questline all the way to the end, where my motorics dump stat meant that the spirit bomb exploded harmlessly on the cobbles.
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Nov 25, 2023 13:56
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Youremother posted:I got the worst possible outcome at the Tribunal because I disliked Evrart enough to not bother doing the gun quest My first time I didn't find my gun, and didn't talk to my necktie either. I can't remember how many Hardies died, but Kim got shot and I ended up with Cuno for the island. Also failed the phasmid check right at the end... not a very successful run overall! Not sure if there's any new players around at the moment so putting some in spoilers just in case.
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Nov 25, 2023 14:02
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Party Boat posted:You just need sufficient Inland Empire for the tie to start talking to you. I stayed (mostly) clean through the game and followed its questline all the way to the end, where my motorics dump stat meant that the spirit bomb exploded harmlessly on the cobbles. Good to know. That makes sense, given how high my Inland Empire was. I think it was the first skill I invested in, and the tie was talking to me basically as soon as I had it. I guess I just forgot the check for it. Even on speed, I think I had to roll a 10 for the spirit bomb to work. I hadn't save-scummed anything up to that point, and I wasn't about to start. It was the biggest fist-pumping, out-loud "gently caress yeah" of the whole run. It felt like a development arc for Harry: he goofed up seemingly every significant Motorics check up to that point, but goddamn did he make his one pass count.
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Nov 25, 2023 14:06
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Party Boat posted:You just need sufficient Inland Empire for the tie to start talking to you. I stayed (mostly) clean through the game and followed its questline all the way to the end, where my motorics dump stat meant that the spirit bomb exploded harmlessly on the cobbles. You tried to throw an improvised petroleum bomb. It missed. Then you said *it's a fiasco, bratan* in a funny voice. A firefight ensued. E: There's a check when Garte calculates your debt, which triggers the tie talking. I think that's the only check and the tie will stay silent if you miss it, but it's a forced conversation, and according to fayde it just requires you to wear the tie and have at least 2 Inland Empire, so it should be unmissable unless you take it off. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Nov 25, 2023 |
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Nov 25, 2023 14:08
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Mañana says he's a lone wolf who subscribes to whatever is easiest, which is currently working for Evrart, sure, but the nose don't lie. I always got the vibe that Manana was some flavor of ancom, personally. It's been a while since I played, but there were a few reasons I got the vibe IIRC.
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Nov 25, 2023 14:50
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:You tried to throw an improvised petroleum bomb. It missed. Then you said *it's a fiasco, bratan* in a funny voice. A firefight ensued. you need 4 inland empire when seeing the tie on the fan to get a passive check anthropomorphizing it. if you see that World War Mammories fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Nov 25, 2023 |
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Nov 25, 2023 16:04
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World War Mammories posted:you need 4 inland empire when seeing the tie on the fan to get a passive check anthropomorphizing it. if you see that and then are wearing the tie during the mandatory conversation where garte tallies up your debt, the tie will chime in and be able to talk if you’re wearing it for the rest of the game. if you miss either of those it stays silent My current playthrough I failed the check to pull the tie off the fan and kept playing a bit til I could redo it, including the dialogue with Garte, but once I got it down and put it on I got tie dialogue as usual. So I think you just need the first check seeing it on the fan.
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Nov 25, 2023 16:58
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Devlan Mud posted:My current playthrough I failed the check to pull the tie off the fan and kept playing a bit til I could redo it, including the dialogue with Garte, but once I got it down and put it on I got tie dialogue as usual. So I think you just need the first check seeing it on the fan. oh, looks like you’re right. I thought the effect chain was whirling.necktie_personified (at the fan) enabling whirling.garte_necktie_talked (this part) which would set off the rest. but it seems that the variable the game checks is necktie_personified.
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Nov 25, 2023 17:42
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In my current playthrough Ive stalled out a bit cause i forgot to save for a while and then accidentally removed the necktie. I got grumpy about all the lost progress so I'm taking a break. May as well just kill me when I take it off.
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Nov 25, 2023 20:38
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Orange Devil posted:I distinctly get the impression that people who have never been through any really serious poo poo in their life react to Cuno as if Cuno is the problem. They get annoyed or even angry at this child, and blame him. Whereas others react with empathy. They recognize something is really hosed up with this kid, and want to know what, why or how to make it better. They don't immediately blame Cuno for whatever is wrong with him. Like, not to be excessively grim about it, but lol lmao The idea that people in the dregs of society, who have gone through the worst parts of it, are usually kind, empathetic, and worried about violence and child abuse, and it's the middle class who are callous and annoyed, is fuckin' laughable. It's universally the people in the normal strata who are alarmed and worried to the point of condescension, and the people in the poo poo who see four lovely things before breakfast who are going to shrug it off, and positing the exact opposite in the specific manner you did makes you come across as a clive-cigarette, artist-collective hipster who thinks hanging with their friends in the quarter-gentrified part of town gives them insights.
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Nov 25, 2023 21:16
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Uh, most people are encountering Cuno on the third screen of the game, you still don't really understand anything about the game world or what this game really even is, all you do know is that Quest No.1 is Get The Corpse Down and this incredibly annoying kid is laughing at you failing. You are supposed to be irritated with him. But even in that first encounter the game will explicitly tell you there is more than meets the eye. In pure game design terms, the first encounter with Cuno is the point at which the game says to the player 'I'm going to show you something, but if you pass the right skill checks I will reveal that there's an underlying truth that's quite different to your first assumptions. That's what kind of game you are playing'.
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Nov 25, 2023 21:27
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Organic Lube User posted:In my current playthrough Ive stalled out a bit cause i forgot to save for a while and then accidentally removed the necktie. I got grumpy about all the lost progress so I'm taking a break. Despite what the game tells you, the tie will absolutely still talk to you if you remove it then put it back on.
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Nov 25, 2023 21:48
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Devlan Mud posted:Despite what the game tells you, the tie will absolutely still talk to you if you remove it then put it back on. But my tie_removed now = true I am impure.
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Nov 25, 2023 22:02
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Organic Lube User posted:But my tie_removed now = true I am impure. BRATTAN, NOTHING COULD EVER MAKE YOU PURE. SO GO AHEAD, PUT ME BACK ON, AND LET’S GO gently caress THIS CASE WIDE OPEN!
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Nov 25, 2023 23:22
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