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Xiahou Dun posted:Do you have an actual argument? That after being presented with several opinions and reasons on why something wouldn't function from teacher's and parent's point of view, you choose to ignore that and insist that only your perspective is accurate. Do you have one after someone else provided a rebuttal?
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Nov 28, 2023 20:16
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Xiahou Dun posted:Do you have an actual argument? Do you? This is every post you've made on the topic: Xiahou Dun posted:Are you going to say what this “reasonable policy” is, as distinct from the systems in the article under discussion? Xiahou Dun posted:So you don't have such a system. You are explicitly just saying do the same poo poo, but harder. The thing that we're talking about not working, based on a study. Xiahou Dun posted:No, you've thrown a temper tantrum about how the rules shouldn't apply to you and your child's toy is more important than people actually learning at school. Xiahou Dun posted:Do you have evidence for this besides just saying it over and over? Xiahou Dun posted:Yes, that's why the people who are arguing with you are mostly teachers. The people with the least experience in a classroom. Obviously. Xiahou Dun posted:Just like it's very obvious who here has ever tried to teach a class. Xiahou Dun posted:I was mocking that argument for being dumb. Xiahou Dun posted:Do you have an actual argument? I see no arguments or assertions made, just a lot of hostility. Maybe contribute something original instead of just being a dick? Nissin Cup Nudist posted:How the heck did we even get to phone chat in the first place Leon posted an opinion piece about them.
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Nov 28, 2023 20:16
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My kids are in school but young enough that hardly anyone has phones yet. It’s definitely going to vary school to school but is the problem people are talking about students actually sitting on the phone at their desk during instruction? That’s a pretty big problem but it feels more indicative of a “nobody is taking this poo poo seriously” problem than something to do specifically with the phones themselves. Edit: it also is probably separate from the “social media is terrible” point the study seemed to be trying to make. Fork of Unknown Origins fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 20:17
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:My kids are in school but young enough that hardly anyone has phones yet. Yeah, it's a problem of policy and enforcement, not the phones or the kids that have them.
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Nov 28, 2023 20:18
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:One kind of interesting thing is that some areas of the country have been like this for a while. States that have one party politics for long enough get bored of it and sometimes they like to have a "pet governor" from the minority party who basically can't do anything because there are supermajorities in the legislature that can easily override them. It'll be a moderate indistinguishable from moderates from their own party usually. Since they can't damage anything even if they try it's hard to hate them. Governors get incumbency strength like everything else but also have a state pride thing wrapped in along with national pride.
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Nov 28, 2023 20:23
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I usually just lurk here, but I'm a high school English teacher in LA and we've had huge problems with students and cell phones for years, so maybe I can contribute some experience. Our school is piloting a program with our Freshmen, and we've given all Freshmen teachers a lockbox which students place their phones into when they get into class. If they don't place their phones, there are escalating punishments for breaking the rules. The parents were told about the situation before the school year started and it's mostly worked pretty well? Now, they can still get distracted because they all work off laptops most of the day, but one less distraction is extremely helpful and phones appear to be a uniquely obsessive item to them in a way the laptops aren't from my experience.
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Nov 28, 2023 20:24
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Agents are GO! posted:They're going to force you to play to completion 3 non-Disney movie licensed NES games. Oh god  Just molest me again, I survived that alreadyAnyway I asked my teacher friend what she thought and she says it sucks because sometimes the kids are actually taking the piss (Her most recent pair of confiscations came, she tells me, when a couple of kids were on their phones while the class was playing a song (she's a music teacher)) and there's nothing you can do except interrupt everything to confiscate them, but she seems pretty resigned to the whole thing
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Nov 28, 2023 20:25
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Bodyholes posted:States that have one party politics for long enough get bored of it and sometimes they like to have a "pet governor" from the minority party who basically can't do anything because there are supermajorities in the legislature that can easily override them. It'll be a moderate indistinguishable from moderates from their own party usually. Since they can't damage anything even if they try it's hard to hate them. Illinois had Republican Bruce Rauner before JB Pritzker, and boy did we hate the poo poo out of Rauner. He also got jack poo poo done like you said because he had to face huge Dem majorities in both chambers of the general assembly. Rauner probably rivaled Blago for most hated governor.
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Nov 28, 2023 20:32
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Dapper_Swindler posted:as someone who doest have kid but wants to bitch about school issues., my biggest gripe about high school was that we read classics and other good books but were terribly taught them. the system teaches books that teens won't appreciate because they dont have the life expirence or they are taught shaekspear by reading it out of the book with little context. worse in my opinion, they focus fully on "look for symbolism and write about the symboles. just look for key words and dont actually read the book as book, and if you come to some kinda weird or interesting opinion about the book, your wrong, just talk about the symbols and whatever harold bloom wants. I was in highschool in like 08 so hopefully its better now, because it took me until recently to appreaciate reading classic or lit again. same with art honestly, but i feel in love with that in college Make them all read Gene Wolfe instead
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Nov 28, 2023 20:58
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Levitate posted:Make them all read Gene Wolfe instead make them read all of the horus heresy books including all of the poo poo ones.
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Nov 28, 2023 21:01
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Dapper_Swindler posted:make them read all of the horus heresy books including all of the poo poo ones. oh god
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Nov 28, 2023 21:05
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Dapper_Swindler posted:make them read all of the horus heresy books including all of the poo poo ones. Psychopath poo poo right here
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Nov 28, 2023 21:07
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:My kids are in school but young enough that hardly anyone has phones yet. Not particularly. There's a lot that suggests that smartphones cause a level of distraction and cognitive load even when people aren't actively using them. For example, even if someone's phone is set to vibrate, getting a notification or message distracts them. Even if they don't check the message immediately, they're still thinking about what that message could be, and that draws their focus away from the lesson. Studies generally show that school smartphone bans correlate with higher academic performance. I've even seen some studies suggest that even just having a smartphone in your possession is enough to cause distraction. In this study, people who had their phone in their pocket performed better on tests than people who had their phone on their desk, but people who left their phone in another room performed even better than both of those groups. As it turns out, even if the screen is off and you're not touching it, just having that physical reminder of your notifications and phone games and stuff is apparently enough to draw people's thoughts away from the task at hand, causing a noticeable degradation in performance compared to people who don't have their pocket Skinner Boxes within arm's reach. There's also a number of other studies suggesting that the mere presence of a smartphone has a distracting effect even if it's turned off. Researchers have found that having a phone near your computer screen biases your attention toward that side of the computer screen, that having a conversation with someone while your phone is on the table or even just having someone else's phone on a nearby table leads to lower social engagement and less empathy, and so on. The science is still pretty early here so we don't have a solid explanation for that yet, but the researchers generally hypothesize that even if you're able to resist the habit of whipping out your phone and checking your notifications or scrolling Tiktok, resisting that urge takes cognitive effort that draws your mental resources away from the thing you're actually doing and draws your mind to thinking about all the hot tweets you're missing out on.
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Nov 28, 2023 21:09
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Levitate posted:Make them all read Gene Wolfe instead Just read Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun for the first time and it was awesome, highly recommend. Would have loved it in highschool too.
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Nov 28, 2023 21:11
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InnercityGriot posted:I usually just lurk here, but I'm a high school English teacher in LA and we've had huge problems with students and cell phones for years, so maybe I can contribute some experience. Our school is piloting a program with our Freshmen, and we've given all Freshmen teachers a lockbox which students place their phones into when they get into class. If they don't place their phones, there are escalating punishments for breaking the rules. The parents were told about the situation before the school year started and it's mostly worked pretty well? Now, they can still get distracted because they all work off laptops most of the day, but one less distraction is extremely helpful and phones appear to be a uniquely obsessive item to them in a way the laptops aren't from my experience. It seems to me that the big part of the issue is that smart phones enable such a larger range of distractions than the graphing calculators or gameboys or whatever of our (older millennial in my case) generation. It's not just playing a game or screwing around, it's the social media aspect, the constant texting/group chat/gossip/etc and as someone way back mentioned, even if your phone is in your pocket and it buzzes it's like "is that someone tagging you in a social media post? is it making fun of you? is it something you need to respond to? what will your friends think? your enemies? what is it? I need to know!" It's kind of a mess Interesting that my sisters pre-teen kid last summer said to us "the internet is horrible and social media sucks" (more or less). Dunno if she was mostly repeating stuff my sister says or what, but I think to some extent kids know how messed up it can be, but it's hard not to be part of
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Nov 28, 2023 21:15
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Psychopath poo poo right here Levitate posted:oh god nah the real monsters are having to read nathanial hawthorn. also read tom sawyer instead of huckfinn. tom is a more fun book and your gonna have slurs to deal with either way. also peter beagle books are good and some atwood.
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Nov 28, 2023 21:20
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:My kids are in school but young enough that hardly anyone has phones yet. I think it's the notifications. The laptops have games, but they don't have Snapchat, Instagram, Tiktok, and Clash of Clans all constantly reminding them to open the app. It's easier to deal with kids playing a game in a browser window on their laptop than sitting at their desk thinking about why their phone is going off in their pocket.
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Nov 28, 2023 21:21
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James Garfield posted:I think it's the notifications. The laptops have games, but they don't have Snapchat, Instagram, Tiktok, and Clash of Clans all constantly reminding them to open the app. It's easier to deal with kids playing a game in a browser window on their laptop than sitting at their desk thinking about why their phone is going off in their pocket. Definitely. A graphing calculator is not constantly demanding that you look at it because its content spontaneously changed
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Nov 28, 2023 21:22
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Dapper_Swindler posted:nah the real monsters are having to read nathanial hawthorn. also read tom sawyer instead of huckfinn. tom is a more fun book and your gonna have slurs to deal with either way. also peter beagle books are good and some atwood. I never did actually read wuthering heights
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Nov 28, 2023 21:26
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Dapper_Swindler posted:make them read all of the horus heresy books including all of the poo poo ones. Apparently we're on a "make kids experience terrible media" kick today As I said, I'm not a parent or in school, but it honestly seems like there's more talking past each other on this issue than usual.
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Nov 28, 2023 21:29
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Yiggy posted:I see Staluigi’s story about the extreme implementation working and that is interesting to me but it really feels like a school district has to hit rock bottom on the issue before both the parents and the administrators are fed up enough to act. the comprehensive bans in my or other people's stories came from schools which got to doing it really quick the instant there was "the loving event" that proved in a way they can't avoid that it was a responsibility of the schools to act on cellphones, because not to act was negligent, so i got stuck thinking of it the other way around Schools that got around to bans by "reaching the bottom of the barrel" got there through active negligence and probably won't be able to handle the issue long term, but the way they try to enforce it will probably be punitive and ineffectual, especially if you look at the school environment and phones are the least of their worries in that they obviously aren't satisfactory learning environs to begin with
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Nov 28, 2023 21:45
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Agents are GO! posted:Apparently we're on a "make kids experience terrible media" kick today I wonder how things will shift as younger kids who haven't really gotten into social media and phones get to that point in a few years...whether things wll have shifted more by then and we'll be better prepared to handle it or if it'll just be even more of a shitshow
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Nov 28, 2023 21:48
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Levitate posted:I never did actually read wuthering heights I did but only because my English teacher Mrs. Hunt knew I was absolutely not cishet (we had already swooned together over Marlon Brando as Stanley Kowalski) and she knew that I would be a Heathcliff Appreciator so that's how she got me into it.
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Nov 28, 2023 21:51
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The Hunger Games and the teacher rushing to cover Juliet’s boobs in that one version s the only time I remember most or even half the class being engaged since elementary story time
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Nov 28, 2023 21:56
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The Hunger Games and the teacher rushing to cover Juliet’s boobs in that one version s the only time I remember most or even half the class being engaged since elementary story time No one remembers you have to watch 10 minutes of Leonard Whiting's rear end before a half second of boob
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Nov 28, 2023 22:01
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The Hunger Games and the teacher rushing to cover Juliet’s boobs in that one version s the only time I remember most or even half the class being engaged since elementary story time my favorite memory was being on dyalisis i through alot of middle school so i missed alot so i basicaly got semi home schooled(which explains alot) anway they just sent home clash of the titans. it was nice.
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Nov 28, 2023 22:06
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Dapper_Swindler posted:make them read all of the horus heresy books including all of the poo poo ones. These books are worth a lot of money now going by half price book offer price. Bankrupt the district.
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Nov 28, 2023 22:09
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Levitate posted:I wonder how things will shift as younger kids who haven't really gotten into social media and phones get to that point in a few years...whether things wll have shifted more by then and we'll be better prepared to handle it or if it'll just be even more of a shitshow My oldest is 13, he just had his birthday last week, and my father-in-law wanted to get him a smartphone for his birthday. The kid already has an old man prepaid flip phone when he's on his own outside of school hours, and whenever he has it he just sends stupid text messages and takes pictures of everything. No loving way is he getting a smartphone, he'd just watch stupid TikTok videos all day. They already have access to "shorts" on YouTube on their school laptops, which is just repackaged TikTok stuff, and they have been caught watching stupid poo poo or listening to loud music so many times by teachers. We already had to block a few (what we thought were innocent) YouTube personalities, and that was not a fun parenting moment. Social media is the worst. I highly recommend everyone log-off and delete the internet. 
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Nov 28, 2023 22:39
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Main Paineframe posted:Not particularly. There's a lot that suggests that smartphones cause a level of distraction and cognitive load even when people aren't actively using them. For example, even if someone's phone is set to vibrate, getting a notification or message distracts them. Even if they don't check the message immediately, they're still thinking about what that message could be, and that draws their focus away from the lesson. Studies generally show that school smartphone bans correlate with higher academic performance. Yeah sorry I'm calling bullshit on this what do scientists know about social engagement.
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Nov 28, 2023 22:45
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VorpalBunny posted:My oldest is 13, he just had his birthday last week, and my father-in-law wanted to get him a smartphone for his birthday. The kid already has an old man prepaid flip phone when he's on his own outside of school hours, and whenever he has it he just sends stupid text messages and takes pictures of everything. No loving way is he getting a smartphone, he'd just watch stupid TikTok videos all day. They already have access to "shorts" on YouTube on their school laptops, which is just repackaged TikTok stuff, and they have been caught watching stupid poo poo or listening to loud music so many times by teachers. We already had to block a few (what we thought were innocent) YouTube personalities, and that was not a fun parenting moment. yeah my kids 7 and there's a long ways to go yet but I see kids sometimes at his school on phones together when I drop him off (K-5 so probably the older kids) I think there's a way through it but you have to give a poo poo more than "it's inevitable they'll gently caress around on social media why fight it"
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Nov 28, 2023 22:52
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Judgy Fucker posted:Do your friends talk about theft being an issue? That is what immediately jumps out to me as a problem with the pouches or drop boxes. Phone theft was a multiple-times-a-day issue at the school I taught. This year, for the first time, teachers in my district had the legal authority to require students to put their cellphones in a designated area. All that was required was: 1)Send home a letter alerting parents to exactly where in the room the phone would be located during the day and 2)The teacher assumes all legal and financial responsibility for the phone as long as it's in their room Take a look at #2 again. I have 30 kids in each class. Since we sent the letter home, kids know that if their phone doesn't work when they take it out of the "designated area," the teacher has to deal with it since it's their "fault." I hope you can see how insane this is and why I don't have a "designated area" so every kid who drops their phone can't claim it's my fault and charge me $1000. Ban them.
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Nov 28, 2023 23:00
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lol how is 2# even a thing for school? literally all other places ever say the opposite.
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Nov 28, 2023 23:05
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JonathonSpectre posted:2)The teacher assumes all legal and financial responsibility for the phone as long as it's in their room *They all say phones are the biggest direct problem, indirectly caused by parents that don't give a poo poo.
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Nov 28, 2023 23:20
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Main Paineframe posted:The science is still pretty early here so we don't have a solid explanation for that yet, but the researchers generally hypothesize that even if you're able to resist the habit of whipping out your phone and checking your notifications or scrolling Tiktok, resisting that urge takes cognitive effort that draws your mental resources away from the thing you're actually doing and draws your mind to thinking about all the hot tweets you're missing out on.
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Nov 28, 2023 23:25
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Since we are on the topic of phones I've been reading a lot of articles lately about how the youngest generation of workers, so like late zoomers I guess? Are terrible at actual computer knowledge. Like just as bad as boomers. And it's having a real effect on their ability to work in offices where the basic computer knowledge is needed. Like apparently these kids don't know how to operate a mouse and keyboard, don't know how to navigate file structures or other basic windows functions, don't know how to print etc. Because they grew up with smartphones and tablets and that whole ecosystem and many households just don't have an actual PC now. So it got me wondering is any real computer stuff taught in schools anymore? When I was school in the 80s and 90s they taught us a lot of that stuff and we had lots of typing classes too.
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Nov 28, 2023 23:37
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yeah there's been some warning about the sheer ease of android's and apple's gated gardens are and their "just works" mind set. looks like that those tech seeds are being reaped now.
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Nov 28, 2023 23:52
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I think there's something to be said for "restricting kids and teenagers to family-shared utilities until adulthood". For many people, that was getting their first car after having to deal with the headache of being chaperoned and later asking every time to borrow dad's car. For me, my first laptop was like that because I finally had my own PC that I could manage how I liked, and I didn't get that luxury until well into my college years. Same with my first (dumb)phone. This "giving kids their own personal devices ASAP" just seems insane to me.
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Nov 29, 2023 00:05
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As ever the critical caveat on education and curricular policy is that school curricular standards in the US can vary completely between jurisdictions. There is no single curriculum.
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Nov 29, 2023 00:07
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Some observations on phones and kids over here compared to the US (and France, Canada, and most of the west and commonwealth im guessing but I’m also guessing the US is the worst) 1. Less capitalist grindset means way more time for parents to do wholesome kid activities instead of being gone or exhausted enough into conditioning screens 2. Multignerational households have flaws but it means way more help with care and more time to play grandparents and kids their own age where they might have no one or just one, maybe two siblings at different stages 3. Less stranger danger hysteria means neighbours help each other out with kids, and older ones still get to roam free (with neighbours instead of needing a ride) instead of being locked up inside or thrown out of everywhere they’d hang out Obviously phones can be a problem, but like so many a ton of the specific issues of kids with phones is exacerbated by good ol’capitalism Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 00:13
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Charliegrs posted:Since we are on the topic of phones I've been reading a lot of articles lately about how the youngest generation of workers, so like late zoomers I guess? Are terrible at actual computer knowledge. Like just as bad as boomers. And it's having a real effect on their ability to work in offices where the basic computer knowledge is needed. Like apparently these kids don't know how to operate a mouse and keyboard, don't know how to navigate file structures or other basic windows functions, don't know how to print etc. Because they grew up with smartphones and tablets and that whole ecosystem and many households just don't have an actual PC now. This absolutely checks out from my time teaching; those students would be late Zoomers, yeah. Just no clue how to do even the most basic operations on a computer. And again, anecdotal, but my personal experience as a student and as a teacher was that computer science classes were a total joke. Keyboarding wasn't, but the class teaching you to actually operate a computer? Let's watch Mr. Holland's Opus instead. Edgar Allen Ho posted:Obviously phones can be a problem, but like so many a ton of the specific issues of kids with phones is exacerbated by good ol’capitalism Yeah to be honest the "phone problem" really is less about phones and a lot more about deeper structural issues in our society. Anti-intellectualism, distrust of once-respected social institutions, the atomization of the family, etc. Phones in schools are a problem, but it's a symptom of deeper issues, not a disease in and of itself. Judgy Fucker fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 00:16
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