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Lord Lambeth posted:There isn't a single ethnicity holding power within israel and freedom of religion is explicitly codified into israeli laws. Except that 2 million people living under the Israeli government are explicitly excluded from that power in order to preserve a single ethnic group's control of government. any claim that Israel is a democracy has to come with a pretty massive asterisk.
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Dec 2, 2023 22:49
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Lord Lambeth posted:There isn't a single ethnicity holding power within israel Not only is this not the reality - quote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/27/world/middleeast/israel-apartheid-palestinians-hrw.html it is not even the official policy of the Israeli state: quote:https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Read-the-full-Jewish-Nation-State-Law-562923 Unless you mean "Israel isn't the antebellum American South, Palestinians do have some level of formal legal entitlement." That's true. But it is a highly, brutally unequal society, along explicitly ethnic lines, and this is rooted in the ideology that built the state and exhibiting its most brutal expression right now. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 22:56
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The problem with the policies is that they're aimed at creating an exclusive homeland for a particular ethnicity, where "homeland" is understood to mean "the government is necessarily primarily concerned with the welfare of people of this ethnicity." The attempt to build a homeland on land inhabited by other people - settler colonialism - has not -gone- morally wrong, it -is- morally wrong. Why would it require geopolitical superiority in the entire region?
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Dec 2, 2023 23:01
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Pvt. Parts posted:Why would it require geopolitical superiority in the entire region? Neighboring governments reacting to popular disgust at ethnic cleansing, probably.
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Dec 2, 2023 23:05
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It's amazing that people can even try for that sort of denial. I'm sure the logic attempted here is that "Eastern European, African, Middle Eastern, and Western European are all different ethnicities", but that's a completely pointless quibble. Israel has an official policy declaring who it considers to be "Jewish" with a pretty high bar - it's not possible to get the box checked just by saying you are. Even if we were to accept that it doesn't represent an "ethnicity", it probably comprises a "race" - not because it follows the pseudo-scientific logic about skin tone or heritage to the letter, but because it is a deliberately exclusionary category that exists to define the in and out groups of society. It isn't like "White" means the same thing to people across all times and geography - the point of "White" is to define UNacceptable targets, the people who can't be denied service or deported or have their rights violated. There can be a pecking order within that identity, and there is both in the US and in Israel, but the point is to have a bulwark, a division between people inside the castle walls and outside when the race war starts.
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Dec 2, 2023 23:11
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Pvt. Parts posted:Why would it require geopolitical superiority in the entire region? Basically, the Six-Day War. To be clear you're asking a question about my description of what liberal Zionists believe, so I'll have to answer as a liberal Zionist: the safety of the Jews is the safety of their state and the safety of their state is geopolitical superiority in the region. Otherwise all Israel's neighbors would team up, boot the Jews out, and split up the land. Practically speaking I do think it's correct that colonies are in danger for as long as they generate local outrage and provide an easy political-cultural line across which non-colony neighbor-states can align against them. To be immune to that danger demands local geopolitical superiority - if you're just one country among the rest, you're actually one country hated by the rest. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 23:12
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Pvt. Parts posted:It's as if you can't tell what is happening inside or around a building just by looking at it. People look at images and video of war and mis-frame it (which is good in a way, war is becoming less and less of a norm globally). Civility has already broken down, that's why a war has broken out. The goal of war, as hellish as it is, is to completely dismantle the enemy's will to fight and to limit the casualties on your own side. It's not a game. You don't want to ensure a fair fight. So it's not dropping bombs indiscriminately on civilians, which in this video would look like the onlookers running away being pulverized. But it is destroying the war machine of the other side -- which may include infrastructure, and horribly in this conflict, even civilian infrastructure -- until it grinds to a halt. 386-SX 25Mhz VGA fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 23:20
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punishedkissinger posted:Except that 2 million people living under the Israeli government are explicitly excluded from that power in order to preserve a single ethnic group's control of government. it's impossible to make the point that israel is a country with many different ethnicities, I guess? I have jewish cousins who are iraqi. There's been an enormous amount of immigration of jews from muslim lands. the entire jewish population of yemen fleed to israel. Freedom of religion is one of the fundamental laws of israel as a country, although how they implement it is another question. How Israel treats Palestinian people is a separate thing which I wasn't really addressing, but I'm not trying to downplay the inhumanity which they have been subject to.
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Dec 2, 2023 23:23
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 This is in a country which has 7m Muslims and 7m Jews (Palestine included as there certainly has been no 2 state solution). I don't think you can really claim that Muslim inhabitants of lands under Israeli rule are fairly represented, with 10 seats out of 120. This being, of course, why people are calling it apartheid. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 23:41
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Lord Lambeth posted:it's impossible to make the point that israel is a country with many different ethnicities, I guess? People can and often do belong to multiple ethnicities, both self-identified and assigned. This should be pretty self-apparent - you are talking about an ethnicity as defined by country of origin, but people can also be, for example, Iraqi and Kurdish. In the US, "Hispanic or Latino" is frequently tracked, but people with that identity can also be Central American or South American, and even more specifically Peruvian or Columbian or what-have-you. Even within those identities, people might identify as European-descended, identify with a native population, or as mestizo. Do you think South Africa was an ethnostate to the degree that it wasn't possible to be French or British or Dutch or whatever? Its completely possible to be both an explicit ethnostate and still contain many ethnicities, even to have a diversity of ethnicities within the in-group. The important part of an ethnostate is not that it is dominated by exactly one unitary ethnicity, but that it DENIES power to people based on what ethnicities they are or aren't categorically. Edit: here's another thing to consider - in the US at various points there have been lines drawn such as the "one-drop" rule. In Jewish tradition the rule is usually matrilineal descent - it's arcane, it may even mean that you only have 1/2048 of the supposedly Jewish genetics, but it is still fundamentally being used as the basis for what rights you may or may not have. Just because it is "one drop and you are in" instead of "one drop and you are out" doesn't make it any less disgusting to codify it in a legal and governmental system. BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 23:47
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BougieBitch posted:People can and often do belong to multiple ethnicities, both self-identified and assigned. This should be pretty self-apparent - you are talking about an ethnicity as defined by country of origin, but people can also be, for example, Iraqi and Kurdish. In the US, "Hispanic of Latino" is frequently tracked, but people with that identity can also be Central American or South American, and even more specifically Peruvian or Columbian or what-have-you. Even within those identities, people might identify as European-descended, identify with a native population, or as mestizo. Fair point. I was just attempting to clarify my position. Private Speech posted:
It is super clear to me that there is something rotting in israel's democracy, there's no doubt about that.
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Dec 2, 2023 23:52
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Lord Lambeth posted:There isn't a single ethnicity holding power within israel and freedom of religion is explicitly codified into israeli laws. Oh come on
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Dec 2, 2023 23:55
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Edit: wrong thread. I'm going to unbookmark this one I think.
ContinuityNewTimes fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 23:55
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Pvt. Parts posted:It's as if you can't tell what is happening inside or around a building just by looking at it. People look at images and video of war and mis-frame it (which is good in a way, war is becoming less and less of a norm globally). Civility has already broken down, that's why a war has broken out. The goal of war, as hellish as it is, is to completely dismantle the enemy's will to fight and to limit the casualties on your own side. It's not a game. You don't want to ensure a fair fight. So it's not dropping bombs indiscriminately on civilians, which in this video would look like the onlookers running away being pulverized. But it is destroying the war machine of the other side -- which may include infrastructure, and horribly in this conflict, even civilian infrastructure -- until it grinds to a halt. What if the IDF doesn't know what's going on in those buildings? Would it still be ok to flatten them?
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Dec 3, 2023 03:56
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No, are you crazy? They're not a legitimate target like a hospital or refugee camp, or school.
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Dec 3, 2023 04:03
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Charliegrs posted:What if the IDF doesn't know what's going on in those buildings? Would it still be ok to flatten them? Gonna go with no. edit: myself and others in this thread have talked about the onus being on Israel to make their homework public and prove to the world that they are taking reasonable measures to not kill civilians who pose no threat to them. I'm not sure how that kind of intel interacts with an ongoing war and won't pretend to know the first thing about it. Serotoning fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 3, 2023 04:26
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Pvt. Parts posted:Gonna go with no. edit: myself and others in this thread have talked about the onus being on Israel to make their homework public and prove to the world that they are taking reasonable measures to not kill civilians who pose no threat to them. I'm not sure how that kind of intel interacts with an ongoing war and won't pretend to know the first thing about it. Now, I ain't no fancy pants intel analyst, but destroying nearly 100,000 buildings and killing primarily women and children at a 7:3 ratio isn't "oops my dog ate my homework" levels of fuckup. It's "Israeli leadership gets a one way ticket to the Hague." Edit: By any rational scale of crimes against humanity, if Hamas are a terrorist organization, Likud is all the bad guys from James Bond combined multiplied by ISIS. KillHour fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 3, 2023 06:01
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It's really obvious to me that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians. There have been far too many dead to believe otherwise.
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Dec 3, 2023 06:18
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I said come in! posted:It's really obvious to me that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians. There have been far too many dead to believe otherwise. I think this is being too generous. It implies that Israel is at least doing some kind of targeting. Israel is erasing an entire country indescriminately, block by block.
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Dec 3, 2023 06:29
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I always see people say "hey at least they warn them sometimes when they level the apartment buildings", but doesn't that make it worse? Because if there was a legitimate target in the building then they escaped but if there wasn't then why are you leveling blocks of apartment buildings?
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Dec 3, 2023 06:39
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E2M2 posted:I always see people say "hey at least they warn them sometimes when they level the apartment buildings", but doesn't that make it worse? Because if there was a legitimate target in the building then they escaped but if there wasn't then why are you leveling blocks of apartment buildings? But yes it's very clear that Israel is going to just level all of Gaza, then say 'well I'm sorry guys, you are just going to have to either live in the desert or go to Egypt now because you have nowhere to go'
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Dec 3, 2023 06:44
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Are we ever going to see an ICC war crimes arrest mandate for Netanyahu or is everyone just too coward? It's not like it did anything for Putin but at least it made a lot of people agree on who was the bad guy. I mean, they could have a dual mandate for Hamas and Netanyahu for all I care - if it helps to save face.
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Dec 3, 2023 09:05
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https://twitter.com/AJArabic/status/1731195838926303435https://twitter.com/AJArabic/status/1731211934031106188quote:عاجل# | Al-Qassam Brigades: A large number of occupation soldiers were killed after detonating explosive devices at a position of 60 soldiers east of Juhr al-Dik. quote:Al-Qassam Brigades announce the killing of a large number of occupation soldiers after detonating explosive devices at their position east of Juhr al-Dik No video evidence, as far as I'm aware, but they're pushing this story pretty hard; it's shown up at a couple of MEastern news orgs so far. It's a significant leap from what Hamas usually claims to have hit (in fact I think they usually just say things along the lines of "we dispatched a group of soldiers in this building" when referring to actual IDF casualties). 60 would absolutely be on the high side, but I also imagine that the ceasefire has been more advantageous for Hamas intelligence than the other way around: I can't imagine the average IDF soldier has much experience discretely sitting in the middle of a city full of people who can actually harm you, and the ceasefire meant they couldn't go tunnel exploring beyond noting entrances. One side's' had nearly twenty years to develop doctrine around avoiding sniper fire and bombing runs, the other is raising a giant steel menorah atop the roof of multi-level public utilities. They also seem to be getting more aggressive in general if their announcements are anything to go by; perhaps they want to send a message that North Gaza is not neutralized, both for demoralization purposes & to drag resources away from sieging South Gaza.
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Dec 3, 2023 11:10
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Someone asked upthread about what America can do with Israeli settlers who clearly break international law. Looks like Biden wants to impose visa bans on at least some of them. https://www.reuters.com/world/us-impose-visa-bans-soon-israeli-extremist-settlers-west-bank-violence-2023-12-01/
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Dec 3, 2023 12:50
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go play outside Skyler posted:Are we ever going to see an ICC war crimes arrest mandate for Netanyahu or is everyone just too coward?
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Dec 3, 2023 16:15
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The main difference as I understand it is that Ukraine is an ICC member and was willing to co-operate with their investigation into Russian war crimes. Palestine has signed up to the ICC, but that was the PA and Hamas is very unlikely to co-operate with them given that they're also openly committing war crimes such as taking civilian hostages as part of their basic MO. That said I do think it's clear that war crimes are being committed by Israel in the West Bank so those really should be investigated and charged. Ukraine is not a member. They were willing to cooperate because it was a pretty open and poo poo case where Russia brazenly bragged about doing the crime and promising to continue to do it. There wasn't really a possibility of ICC finding something that would compromise Ukraine, so there was no reason not to cooperate. ICC is already investigating war crimes committed by Israel in Gaza and other occupied territories, as well as the October 7 attack.
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Dec 3, 2023 16:32
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I didn't see this posted so:Haaretz posted:The Israeli soldiers who killed two terrorists on the outskirts of Jerusalem on Thursday also shot and killed a civilian at the scene, according to footage of the attack published on social media. tldr; there was a shooting in Jerusalem which killed and injured a few civilians. A guy with a licensed firearm engaged the shooters, and later tossed his firearm away and raised his arms only to be shot by soldiers. And Bibi's response: quote:“As soon as you distribute weapons in larger numbers, these cases can happen,” Netanyahu declared at a press conference on Saturday evening at which he expressed support for National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir’s policy of significantly increasing the number of weapons permits being issued to civilians. Very much a "well well well, if it isn't the consequences of my actions" vibe.
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Dec 3, 2023 17:24
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I was just reading about that story this morning and it's really hosed. The guy did everything possible to avoid getting killed by the cops and they just shot him dead with no second thought.
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Dec 3, 2023 18:14
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It's clear they have a policy to shoot people who have surrendered. It's only newsworthy because he was Israeli.
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Dec 3, 2023 18:26
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FlamingLiberal posted:I was just reading about that story this morning and it's really hosed. The guy did everything possible to avoid getting killed by the cops and they just shot him dead with no second thought. Completely true except he wasn't shot by militarized cops, he was shot by the actual military - IDF reservists.
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Dec 3, 2023 18:34
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FlamingLiberal posted:I was just reading about that story this morning and it's really hosed. The guy did everything possible to avoid getting killed by the cops and they just shot him dead with no second thought. well he could have been Palestinian ok?
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Dec 3, 2023 18:44
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That's not the first time the "good guy with the gun" gets shot by arriving cops. I don't think it's necessarily proof of anything. https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/560798-police-chief-hails-good-guy-with-a-gun-after-officer-kills/
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Dec 3, 2023 18:49
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Pvt. Parts posted:It's as if you can't tell what is happening inside or around a building just by looking at it. People look at images and video of war and mis-frame it (which is good in a way, war is becoming less and less of a norm globally). Civility has already broken down, that's why a war has broken out. The goal of war, as hellish as it is, is to completely dismantle the enemy's will to fight and to limit the casualties on your own side. It's not a game. You don't want to ensure a fair fight. So it's not dropping bombs indiscriminately on civilians, which in this video would look like the onlookers running away being pulverized. But it is destroying the war machine of the other side -- which may include infrastructure, and horribly in this conflict, even civilian infrastructure -- until it grinds to a halt. I wouldn't say this is really right. It's a rather outdated perspective that doesn't really line up with where current international law stands on warfare. A good chunk of the current laws of war exist because "completely dismantle the enemy's will to fight [and] limit the casualties on your own side" was so horrifyingly brutal to civilian populations that the international community decided to put very strict restrictions on ever pulling that kind of poo poo again. I'd say a more accurate take on the goal of war, as conceived of by international law, is something like "destroy the enemy's ability to militarily resist in an organized fashion, while minimizing civilian casualties". Militaries might not agree with you, but international war of law is written to ban this stuff precisely because what militaries want to do is at cross-purposes with what's morally or internationally acceptable. For example, minimizing civilian casualties often means putting your own troops at risk. Bombarding any potentially dubious building with airstrikes is typically the safest move for your own soldiers, while also being basically the most dangerous move for civilians short of using WMDs. That's exactly why international law strongly discourages said tactics, because the real-world incentives military leaders are usually under tend to make civilian death preferable to troop death, which is exactly the opposite of what international law wants to happen.
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Dec 3, 2023 18:56
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Historically, killing a bunch of civilians has not been too useful for destroying an insurgency's "will to fight" either.
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Dec 3, 2023 19:08
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This is what happens when you arm an entire countries civilian population. Israel is going to make America look tame in comparison when Israeli's take their frustrations out on each other after the genocide is over.
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Dec 3, 2023 19:17
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mobby_6kl posted:That's not the first time the "good guy with the gun" gets shot by arriving cops. I don't think it's necessarily proof of anything. The details are a little different. The police shot John Hurley in the back without identifying themselves because they are cowards who hid while the gunman killed their coworker. The IDF soldier shot a man who was clearly unarmed and was pleading for his life because the soldier is a murderer who wanted to get his first kill.
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Dec 3, 2023 19:26
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I said come in! posted:This is what happens when you arm an entire countries civilian population. Israel is going to make America look tame in comparison when Israeli's take their frustrations out on each other after the genocide is over. This is an odd way to put your takeaway and makes some odd assumptions. The first one is that Israel will successfully complete its ethnic cleansing of South Gaza, which is unfortunately a possibility but not a foregone conclusion. I actually have a way to poke at data for this, I think. If a significant portion of IDF soldiers are looking to do murders to whoever is available for the sake of doing murders (e: clearly it's a thing for a portion, if the interview floating around is accurately translated and/or because it's an inevitable demographic in a large enough military, and they institutionally are fine with killing Palestinians but it's a leap from that to what you're saying), we should probably see a major uptick in murder rates after ceasefires. i was actually trying to find domestic violence data but i guess overall murder rate works too palestinian casualties by year:  murder rate in israel by year:  eyeball assessment: maybe there's a weak correlation, actually, but i don't think it really matches the idea that IDF soldiers need to get their murder on one way or the other and they'll go on a spree in Israel if they have to for comparison, the american murder rate in 2022 was 6.3 per 100k Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 3, 2023 20:04
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also private gun ownership in israel is very very far from universal, you don't keep your idf gun when you're not in active idf service which, yes, presumably helps with the murder rate punishedkissinger posted:well he could have been Palestinian ok? there's an interview floating around twitter with the soldier who shot him (i mean, allegedly with the soldier, but it looks like a channel 14 thing and the guy i first saw is a credible enough source that he's probably not completely full of poo poo) but I've only seen snippets of the translation and can't verify those snippets Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 3, 2023 20:06
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I said come in! posted:It's really obvious to me that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians. There have been far too many dead to believe otherwise. there's been several stories on ynet, who I refuse to link on principal, that idf soldiers are being lured into ambushes by an ipod, some wifi speakers and the sounds of children playing soccer. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 3, 2023 23:27
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Lord Lambeth posted:it's impossible to make the point that israel is a country with many different ethnicities, I guess?
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Dec 3, 2023 23:42
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