|
mobby_6kl posted:No it actually provides all the answers. The taking of hostages is prohibited. Prohibited by what? I'm not saying it's right, but please clarify. When a country with a military that's acknowledged as "legal" takes them in with no charges, they're called *prisoners* but they still have no actual charges or some vague poo poo and they're taken in for years with flimsy excuses, yet it's ok. You can't apply the same rules to one side than to the other, but I guess you can when it suits you, but there's a massive imbalance there. MadSparkle fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Dec 8, 2023 |
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 07:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 07:49 |
|
|
Space Cadet Omoly posted:https://twitter.com/AkbarSAhmed/status/1732965567018000643?t=3AlA3cfpAsYmT1G-NlJl2g&s=19 It's a rather co-dependent relationship. They can't do that. It would make them look unsupportive. The US has its nose so far up their rear end, I don't think they have been able to breathe normally. It's affected their breathing. I don't know what else to do. It's all so horrible. They need to protect themselves. They have a right to exist. Why is air so foul in here? What day is this? Also: They don't care.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 07:52
|
|
|
MadSparkle posted:Prohibited by what? I'm not saying it's right, but please clarify. At no point does he say that either side is allowed to take hostages.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 07:56
|
|
|
The Israeli Armed forces are really hitting back at those Hamas videos of people soloing Merkavas: https://twitter.com/i/status/1732824071178494008 (nb, the video is quite clearly fake; no gore or anything like that)
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 09:18
|
|
|
MadSparkle posted:Prohibited by what? I'm not saying it's right, but please clarify. quote:Article 34 - Hostages quote:The ICRC has called on parties to both international and non-international armed conflicts to refrain from taking hostages.[14] One side can't do it just becase they think they're right and the other side is wrong, or they're doing it, or they started it. Because that's not necessarily true, and even if it were, it just leads to more horrors and suffering. I'm not kidnapping and murdering random russians (let alone, like, Kazakhs) off the street because that would be bad, even though russia is doing plenty of war crimes to my friends right now.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 12:25
|
|
|
https://x.com/saulstaniforth/status/1733085640583966767?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Unfortunately, it looks like the men in underwear were indeed taken from UN school shelters, in case the situation wasn't warcrimey enough.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 13:00
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/saulstaniforth/status/1733085640583966767?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Speaking of Israel performing acts that ensure more conflict down the road, I'm sure "if you're a man over 18 they'll just treat you like a terrorist no matter what so why not join the resistance" will be used by a lot of recruiters.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 14:31
|
|
|
the IDF has been slowly declaring the entirety of Gaza to be a war zone so essentially any male is a valid target to them
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 14:37
|
|
|
Yawgmoft posted:Speaking of Israel performing acts that ensure more conflict down the road, I'm sure "if you're a man over 18 they'll just treat you like a terrorist no matter what so why not join the resistance" will be used by a lot of recruiters. Over 18? They should be so lucky. https://x.com/ramabdu/status/1732842971584700519?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q quote:Among those taken hostage today in Beit Lahia are:
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 14:44
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:In Vietnam and Iraq, US soldiers generally just indiscriminately murdered a bunch of civilians and then covered it up. They didn't kidnap a few dozen people off the street and claim they'd captured a division of the Republican Guard. That would be stupid and quickly seen through. BBC is reporting it seems this is exactly what happened https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1733038638559023184?t=4StnU9n6IDX1SXDvy9PRZQ&s=19
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 15:00
|
|
|
MadSparkle posted:Prohibited by what? I'm not saying it's right, but please clarify. This reads like willful bad faith interpretation. At no point did they say that Israel's hostage taking was "okay" or that the rules don't apply to them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 15:26
|
|
|
Fidelitious posted:This reads like willful bad faith interpretation. At no point did they say that Israel's hostage taking was "okay" or that the rules don't apply to them. I’m sure if Hamas followed the “rules”, then Israel wouldn’t be trying to do a genocide. What “rules”? Who made them? What is their purpose? Who is the referee? Who agreed to them? Why should they be followed?
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 16:14
|
|
|
I got probated for not sourcing Israeli officials refusing any investigations on grounds of antisemtism and then netyanahu goes out and says it a few hours after https://x.com/louis_allday/status/1733033392382398817?s=46&t=prPdvwNKek6G5lIo0cy9OA I originally remembered this tweet from mr gilad crying about the UN being in the pocket of Iran somehow and calling antisemtism on that https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1730500750399381856?s=46&t=prPdvwNKek6G5lIo0cy9OA
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 16:36
|
|
|
Mean Baby posted:I’m sure if Hamas followed the “rules”, then Israel wouldn’t be trying to do a genocide. Do you think that condemning Hamas is an implicit endorsement of Israel? It seems like you and so many people ITT seem to think this.... E: skipmyseashells posted:I got probated for not sourcing Israeli officials refusing any investigations on grounds of antisemtism and then netyanahu goes out and says it a few hours after This video is from 2021..... Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Dec 8, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 16:42
|
|
|
Kalit posted:Do you think that condemning Hamas is an implicit endorsement of Israel? It seems like you and so many people ITT seem to think this.... Speaking honestly, and this isn't directed at merely or necessarily you, but I think the frustration comes from people wanting to dissect just how awful and wrong Hamas is and what they've done when the scope of what Israel is doing and has done is so, so, so much greater than whatever Hamas has done, or is even accused of doing, but not as much attention is given to Israel's crimes by some of the posters who want to talk about Hamas being raping baby-cookers or whatever. You're absolutely right, condemning Hamas for its crimes is not necessarily an endorsement of Israel, but if a given poster only talks about Hamas' crimes but not Israel's, it's kinda hard to see it any other way.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 16:49
|
|
|
Kalit posted:Do you think that condemning Hamas is an implicit endorsement of Israel? It seems like you and so many people ITT seem to think this.... The tweet from gilad isn’t, and neither is their refusal for any investigations
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 16:58
|
|
|
Didn't this thread have a back and forth a few days back about if Israelis could actually be raped if no outside observers witnessed it? Just as much as some would say posters want to only focus on Hamas and not Israel, it feels like the reverse could be said as well.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 16:59
|
|
|
Judgy Fucker posted:Speaking honestly, and this isn't directed at merely or necessarily you, but I think the frustration comes from people wanting to dissect just how awful and wrong Hamas is and what they've done when the scope of what Israel is doing and has done is so, so, so much greater than whatever Hamas has done, or is even accused of doing, but not as much attention is given to Israel's crimes by some of the posters who want to talk about Hamas being raping baby-cookers or whatever. You're absolutely right, condemning Hamas for its crimes is not necessarily an endorsement of Israel, but if a given poster only talks about Hamas' crimes but not Israel's, it's kinda hard to see it any other way. I understand this sentiment. I can only speak for myself, but since almost everyone here is anti-Israel when it comes to their policies/actions against Palestine, most of my feelings about news regarding them have already been posted by other people by the time I see it. So, since I don't really have anything new to add, I feel like I don't really need to just say something like "agreed". So if someone is keeping tabs on the number of "anti-Hamas" vs "anti-Israel" statements I'm posting, then I'm sure it leans more anti-Hamas. But I think if you look at my posts ITT, it's very clear that I'm horrified by all of the atrocities against Palestinians that Israel has made in the past, is currently making, and I assume will make in the future. I hope this clarifies my perspective and why I'm frustrated when essentially "what about Israel" gets brought up in response to a criticism about Hamas. skipmyseashells posted:The tweet from gilad isn’t, and neither is their refusal for any investigations Is gilad that Louis_AllDay twitter account? I honestly have no idea what you're referring to. But, regardless, you said skipmyseashells posted:netyanahu goes out and says it a few hours after Which seems to imply that the tweet from Louis_AllDay was a recent statement from Netanyahu. It was not. Kalit fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Dec 8, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 17:03
|
|
|
Madkal posted:Didn't this thread have a back and forth a few days back about if Israelis could actually be raped if no outside observers witnessed it? Just as much as some would say posters want to only focus on Hamas and not Israel, it feels like the reverse could be said as well. Israel should cooperate with an independent investigation if they want their claims to be taken seriously.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 17:21
|
|
|
Nucleic Acids posted:Israel should cooperate with an independent investigation if they want their claims to be taken seriously. They are taken seriously by who matters: US government and media, NATO chiefs. The rest can go die in a fire as far as Israeli authorities care. It's like election recounts in 2000; why risk looking into it when the current result is already what you want? It can only go worse for you. I'm surprised they didn't fully go in with "We need to purge Gaza because arabs are all natural-born rapemonsters" as the leading story after October 7, and instead tried to euqate Hamas with Wehrmacht plus Cobra. We're 2 months into the ethnic cleanse and over 1 month into full ground operations and there have been no terror megabunker reveal, just office and storage rooms that look identical to the ones under the hospital I work at, and a fewer light arms than you could find in the garage of the most liberal Kentuckian. But you can always bank on western colonial "we white-passing people would -never- rape the browns, while they are all chomping at the bit to defile us!" tropes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 17:33
|
|
|
Some interesting claims in Jack Poulson's (investigative journalist into military/miltech issues) substack: Jack Poulson posted:
It's a long read but the entire thing is worth reading. https://jackpoulson.substack.com/p/inside-the-pro-israel-information
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 17:34
|
|
|
Judgy Fucker posted:Speaking honestly, and this isn't directed at merely or necessarily you, but I think the frustration comes from people wanting to dissect just how awful and wrong Hamas is and what they've done when the scope of what Israel is doing and has done is so, so, so much greater than whatever Hamas has done, or is even accused of doing, but not as much attention is given to Israel's crimes by some of the posters who want to talk about Hamas being raping baby-cookers or whatever. You're absolutely right, condemning Hamas for its crimes is not necessarily an endorsement of Israel, but if a given poster only talks about Hamas' crimes but not Israel's, it's kinda hard to see it any other way. I have not seen endorsement of Israel in this thread. Maybe it was earlier, maybe I missed it. It certainly isn't common. I have seen people make blatantly false statements in order to deny Hamas fighters have committed sexual assault: applying the description of one video to another. I have seen people literally defend taking a 10 month old as a hostage. So I have mostly posted in response to discussion of Hamas because that's where I see the whitewashing of atrocities. If you think that somehow means I support Israel, that's on you.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 17:41
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:
still waiting on evidence for this that isnt an IDF statement
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 17:46
|
|
|
punishedkissinger posted:still waiting on evidence for this that isnt an IDF statement You can go back and read the BBC article. I found it convincing. If you don't think so, you can go ahead and wait. The BBC article cites a video from Hamas, not just Israeli sources. I also don't think that sexual assault in a conflict like this is particularly surprising, so I see the reflexive denial and in criticism of sources that look valid to me as people putting on blinders because it's the side they support.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 17:51
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:I have not seen endorsement of Israel in this thread. Maybe it was earlier, maybe I missed it. It certainly isn't common. This is such bullshit. The past few days have involved discussions about why Israeli government sources about allegations about mass organized rape are suspect, don't come back in a day later about how people are making false statements about it. Literally yesterday Israel was sexually humiliating hundreds of Palestinians in the street and all you want to talk about is allegations that have no sourcing behind second and third hand accounts repeated ad nauseum by Israeli government officials trying to justify a genocide against the Palestinians in Gaza. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 17:54
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:You can go back and read the BBC article. I found it convincing. If you don't think so, you can go ahead and wait. The BBC article cites a video from Hamas, not just Israeli sources. A view that has not been subject to independent verification.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 17:55
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:I have not seen endorsement of Israel in this thread. Maybe it was earlier, maybe I missed it. It certainly isn't common. Why so defensive, making my post about you? Kalit asked a question, I answered earnestly, they responded in kind. People having a discussion and trying to see eye-to-eye, in DnD?! If you think I was attacking you without quoting you or mentioning your name, that's on you.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 17:56
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:You can go back and read the BBC article. I found it convincing. If you don't think so, you can go ahead and wait. The BBC article cites a video from Hamas, not just Israeli sources. the BBC article contains no firsthand evidence or witnesses, just Israeli govt. claims. reflexively rejecting any claims made by the IDF is pretty reasonable at this point tbh. I think its completely possible atrocities happened but I'll wait on a non-Israeli govt. source before believing anything.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 17:57
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/UNLazzarini/status/1733129096924697081
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 18:03
|
|
|
The BBC also reported, without retraction, the beheaded baby story. They are just an IDF mouthpiece like any other colonial state media. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67065205.amp (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 18:09
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:You can go back and read the BBC article. I found it convincing. If you don't think so, you can go ahead and wait. The BBC article cites a video from Hamas, not just Israeli sources. The "Hamas video" cited is something that no one has access to except for israeli officials who have, we are told, shown it to a number of journalists. Who knows what that video contains, or even what israelis purport it contains other than "Hamas doing atrocities". The reason you're getting pushback and people are assuming you (and others) are supporting israel even though you maintain that you've not made any posts explicitly in support of israel or their genocidal campaign is because of the (frankly astounding) trust you have in reportage from or citing israeli sources despite the IDF and israeli government lying constantly about everything and anything. We have seen over and over and over and over the IDF, israeli government, and related individuals and organizations issue completely bald-faced lies being for entirely propagandistic purposes until they're quietly walked back weeks after they're no longer useful. Anything coming from an israeli source -- even if the piece is in the BBC or Washington Post, etc -- should be regarded, at the very least, as extremely suspect. The fact is that no one, not a single person, who is not operating on behalf of the israeli government can present any evidence that Hamas engaged in any sexual assault, let alone roving rape gangs. This will continue to be the case until israel releases the evidence they purport to have, or, allows for independent investigations -- both of which they have so far rejected.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 18:11
|
|
|
Mean Baby posted:The BBC also reported, without retraction, the beheaded baby story. They are just an IDF mouthpiece like any other colonial state media. This doesn’t even say what you’re claiming. It says some families, including babies, were killed and that some victims were decapitated. It doesn’t say that babies were decapitated. Kalit fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Dec 8, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 18:15
|
|
|
National Parks posted:This is such bullshit. The past few days have involved discussions about why Israeli government sources about allegations about mass organized rape are suspect, don't come back in a day later about how people are making false statements about it. As soon as you see people saying that it's justified, or okay somehow, you'll see me posting about it. I don't have anything to add to those posts beyond commenting on how hosed up it is. Posting like that would be white noise. Nucleic Acids posted:A view that has not been subject to independent verification. The BBC is neither Israel nor Hamas. They are independent enough for me. Pentecoastal Elites posted:you maintain that you've not made any posts explicitly in support of israel or their genocidal campaign If you think I have, go find those posts. I haven't. I've called what they are doing genocide, because it is. You are attacking me for a position I do not hold. Judgy Fucker posted:Why so defensive, making my post about you? Kalit asked a question, I answered earnestly, they responded in kind. People having a discussion and trying to see eye-to-eye, in DnD?! I responded because of the part where you said " this isn't directed at merely or necessarily you" made me think that you were addressing the thread beyond Kalit. I am trying to have an earnest discussion so I'm not sure where the hostility you're expressing is coming from. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Dec 8, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 18:18
|
|
|
Arguing about the morality of Hamas's kidnapping in this context is just like arguing about the morality of George Floyd's paying for cigarettes with a fake 20. Of course it may be wrong and it may be prohibited, but there's a vastly bigger crime going on here and it makes you look like you're trying to distract attention from that. You are distracting from the larger crime, even if that's not your intention. And just like with George Floyd, it makes you look racist when you do it, even if you don't mean to be.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 18:23
|
|
|
Kalit posted:This doesn’t even say what you’re claiming. It says some victims killed were babies and some victims were decapitated. It doesn’t say that any babies were decapitated. they can't say it again because now that the israeli government is walking away from that particular lie it'll catch more significant blowback if they try to publish it. They can, however, strongly insinuate it based on what they choose to quote and how they choose to frame the quotation. quote:Mr Ben Zion said Hamas gunmen who killed families, including babies, were "just a jihad machine to kill everybody, [people] without weapons, without nothing, just normal citizens that want to take their breakfast and that's all." Note how Ben Zion did not say that Hamas decapitated babies, he said that "they killed them and cut off their heads". The BBC writer frames the first part of the quote with "...including babies" and "...were decapitated". The BBC, which happily serves as a mouthpiece for israeli propaganda, is continuing to insinuate the "40 beheaded babies" lie, even if they can no longer do it explicitly. DeadlyMuffin posted:The BBC is neither Israel nor Hamas. They are independent enough for me. As has been explained to you many times, the BBC is not confirming anything. They make clear that their sources are israelis and israeli-approved journalists who have seen the video and/or purported "evidence". They make it very clear that they cannot independently confirm the evidence or the contents of the video.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 18:24
|
|
|
punishedkissinger posted:reflexively rejecting any claims made by the IDF is pretty reasonable at this point tbh. I think its completely possible atrocities happened but I'll wait on a non-Israeli govt. source before believing anything. It's not just reasonable, it should be a moral imperative to outright reject any claims being made by a regime that is actively committing genocide. Because all of those claims are being used to justify genocide, regardless of whether they're true or not. I've asked this before, but what is the point of all this? Even if every single claim made by the Israeli government or IDF is true, what are we supposed to do with that? What opinions should be changed? What should we believe is justified based on that?
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 18:27
|
|
|
Jimbozig posted:Arguing about the morality of Hamas's kidnapping in this context is just like arguing about the morality of George Floyd's paying for cigarettes with a fake 20. Of course it may be wrong and it may be prohibited, but there's a vastly bigger crime going on here and it makes you look like you're trying to distract attention from that. Umm.... are you seriously trying to compare kidnapping civilians to using a fake bill to pay for cigarettes? The moral scale of those things are way different. I think that kidnapping civilians is always a heinous act. Using a fake bill can range from "eh, not morally great" to "perfectly excusable if the person didn't realize it was a fake bill". Pentecoastal Elites posted:they can't say it again because now that the israeli government is walking away from that particular lie it'll catch more significant blowback if they try to publish it. They can, however, strongly insinuate it based on what they choose to quote and how they choose to frame the quotation. Those sentences were on different lines in the news article. It explicitly said that only some of the victims were decapitated. There's no inference that babies were decapitated there unless the reader actively wants to interpret it that way. Kalit fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Dec 8, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 18:30
|
|
|
^^^ they have written it that way so that people who want to defend israel and excuse israeli lies can make exactly your argument to do so to whoever gave me my disgusting custom title: the israeli government -- an entity that uses regularly rape and sexual assault to injure and humiliate its captive population of people who they consider to be racially inferior -- is using these purported rapes/rape gangs to justify an ongoing genocide DeadlyMuffin posted:If you think I have, go find those posts. I haven't. I've called what they are doing genocide, because it is. I did not say you made those posts. Please read what I've actually written instead of the post you imagine I'm writing. Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Dec 8, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 18:36
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:The BBC is neither Israel nor Hamas. They are independent enough for me. The BBC is not an inependent, unbiased observer, as their own behavior since this began demonstrates.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 18:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 07:49 |
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:Buddy, your ethics are kinda useless if it provides zero answers the moment a situation gets complex. I don't think I'd question the usefulness of a baby *not* being kidnapped and held in captivity. You keep pretending that there's no option to not imprison babies. I assure you, baby imprisonment is optional. Speleothing posted:Have you heard of the country that collects hundreds of hostages every year? I guess we should tell them to release the hostages, too. I'm pretty sure they got a big batch of hostages just earlier today. I repeat myself: I also fail to see how "Israeli prisons are awful" and "Hamas should let their kidnapping victims go" are mutually exclusive opinions. It's a false dichotomy to say only one side can be committing war crimes at a time, especially when the vast majority of that violence is being perpetrated against civilians and not the people engaged in fighting. Jimbozig posted:Arguing about the morality of Hamas's kidnapping in this context is just like arguing about the morality of George Floyd's paying for cigarettes with a fake 20. Of course it may be wrong and it may be prohibited, but there's a vastly bigger crime going on here and it makes you look like you're trying to distract attention from that. No, I am absolutely not going to agree to the context that imprisoning babies is a victimless crime. That is absolutely sociopathic. Imprisoning any innocent person is, by definition, victimization and unjust. No, there isn't a bigger context that *justifies* crimes against innocent people. quote:You are distracting from the larger crime, even if that's not your intention. And just like with George Floyd, it makes you look racist when you do it, even if you don't mean to be. No, I'm sorry, being against kidnapping babies isn't racist. MadSparkle posted:Prohibited by what? I'm not saying it's right, but please clarify. Once again I ask what offenses that Hamas is accusing the 10-month-old baby of perpetrating. Is it a combatant?
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2023 18:45
|
|
