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Dawncloack posted:When I hear folks arguing about normal people's perceptions of immigration that always comes to mind. The obvious example there being how immigration went from a niche fascist obsession to the most important issue during Brexit. The centre-left Labour Party standing around with a bunch of Controls on Immigration teacups didn't convince anyone to vote for them, but it did convince a fair few people that there must be some kind of legitimate concerns about immigration, which led to the dumbest parade of fascist clowns getting airtime to spout nonsense about leaving the Geneva Convention and building floating glue traps in the Channel.  The percentage of people claiming that immigration was the biggest problem had no relationship at all with net migration rates across the same time period, so 'sensible centrist pragmatic solutions' were never going to stand a chance against something not rooted in reality, and clown car solutions got people invested (while being no less likely to work than the 'sensible' solutions, because you can just say that anything works against a made up problem)  What is theorized to have had an actual effect on decreasing anti-migrant sentiment is quote:The roughly half of voters who identify as remainers are able to defend their position on Brexit by associating even more strongly with a pro-immigrant stance, Wells said. The leavers, on the other hand, are hostile to the suggestion they voted to exit the European bloc because of migrants, which has been cast as a bigoted or even racist position. So in this instance at least, it appears that the centre-left playing along by agreeing that there was an issue (while not having a snappy soundbite solution) made things worse, whereas just calling people racist eventually softened their views to the point of denying that they even held them a few years back.
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Dec 3, 2023 13:16
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Guavanaut posted:Yup, left wing parties giving credence to the idea that immigration is a problem which requires solving just creates more anti-migrant sentiment, and doesn't even usually translate into votes for that party.
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Dec 3, 2023 14:01
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Do we actually know that for sure? I mean, poor people probably do do the kind of visible crimes that make people feel unsafe more, but I'm not sure we can say for certain that they actually do more crime. Yes:  Pope Hilarius II posted:What weird reality do you occupy where racist voters "aren't being listened to". They have constantly been pandered to, given ample attention by the media and in some countries can even choose from multiple parties espousing various racist policies. If there is one group of voters that is almost never "being listened to" it's left-wing voters. I occupy the reality where far-right parties across Europe have gained massive amounts of support over the last 20 years, and polling indicates its largely down to their policy stances on migration. Working class voters have literally abandoned left-wing parties in droves because they weren't being listened to. I'm suggesting the left should the respond to the views of the working class it claims to represent. The exact migration policies working class voters want currently varies by country, but in almost all of Europe its far more restrictive than what left-wing parties currently stand for. Wanting to temporarily heavily reduce non-EU immigration at a time of a severe housing crisis for example (which is the case in a few countries) isn't remotely racist, and the immediate typical online left response of painting anyone who says this as racist does nothing to win people over to being pro-migration. It just pushes voters into the arms of actual far right racists.
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Dec 3, 2023 16:49
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Blut posted:Yes: Did you mean to respond to a question about the relationship between wealth and criminality with a graph of race and criminality?
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Dec 3, 2023 16:53
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There's also the bit about not being adjusted for age and sex, with refugees in particular being significantly more male. Wealth and education obviously as well, not to mention that you are less likely to be investigated/convicted if you are from a sympathetic group. Also personally the Czechoslovakia on a graph of 2010-2015 as well as being considered "other" compared with Romania/Poland being "western" is kindof raising some eyebrows from me, because the only thing that comes to mind as "other" in that context would be Czech Roma which is something that racist Danes complain about all the time. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 3, 2023 17:00
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Tesseraction posted:Did you mean to respond to a question about the relationship between wealth and criminality with a graph of race and criminality? Private Speech posted:Also personally the Czechoslovakia on a graph of 2010-2015 as well as being considered "other" compared with Romania/Poland being "western" is kindof raising some eyebrows from me, because the only thing that comes to mind as "other" in that context would be Czech Roma which is something that racist Danes complain about all the time.
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Dec 3, 2023 17:18
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Private Speech posted:There's also the bit about not being adjusted for age and sex, with refugees in particular being significantly more male. Wealth and education obviously as well, not to mention that you are less likely to be investigated/convicted if you are from a sympathetic group. CZ is there for the same reason the USSR is I'd presume, its the immigrants country of birth even if the country no longer exists in 2023. Refugees being significantly more male/poor/young would absolutely partly explain why migrants would cause more crime than native Danes. But it wouldn't explain why theres such a massive disparity in crime levels between migrants of different origins. Tesseraction posted:Did you mean to respond to a question about the relationship between wealth and criminality with a graph of race and criminality? How is that a graph of race and criminality? It doesn't mention any races whatsoever. Its a graph of nationality and criminality. That aside, I was replying with a graph that illustrates certain demographics are far more statistically likely to commit violent crime, poverty or no.
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Dec 3, 2023 17:32
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Private Speech posted:There's also the bit about not being adjusted for age and sex, with refugees in particular being significantly more male. Wealth and education obviously as well Yup, these are mainly the reasons why immigrants from certain countries and backgrounds are more represented within certain categories of crime. But it also follows that when immigration increases from that demographic background, crime in those categories will disproportionately rise compared to previous situation or trends that didn't take into account that immigration. Creation of a new underclass, or lumpen proletariat, will necessarily mean more crime, basic materialism. And I don't see how this would be avoidable if immigration continues with current trends with neoliberal status quo being the prevailing dogma. When year after year, the unemployment rate amongst certain demographics is over 50%, it absolutely is no wonder that there will be a lot of social problems among them. quote:not to mention that you are less likely to be investigated/convicted if you are from a sympathetic group. I think this is true within certain crimes, like drug seizures based on profiling. But I don't think this applies to violent crime because in most countries violent crime is always investigated, even if plaintiff doesn't want it. And there's probably more hidden crime within immigrant population than native population, because they might be distrustful of police or want to keep the issues within community. Or it's gang violence where voluntarily going to police isn't really a thing. So the opposite would be true, when natives are victimized in violent crime, it actually shows in the statistics more. I don't know if conviction rates in violent crime depend on ethnic background, but there'd had to be massive institutional bias in court system and sentencing for it to explain the discrepancy. I think simple material reasons have the most explanatory power here.
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Dec 3, 2023 17:38
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Isn't this really a pretty uncontroverisal statement? Solving poverty is always touted as the right solution to cime rather than more policing. I couldn't quickly find much research but, but some googlign does bring e.g.:  At least for visible violent/property crime, I don't think people are generally concerned they'll be randomly tax-frauded on the way home after work when they complain about crime.
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Dec 3, 2023 17:50
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Finding a solution for immigration is finding a fake solution for a fake problem. People are not losing jobs to immigrants, companies are just going for cheaper workforce, crime is not commited by immigrants because they are just "not like us" and "their culture is just different", it because they usually live in impoverished conditions. Leftist solutions would be to target these issues directly, giving more worker rights and supporting poor communities. Thing is none of these will sound good to the "working class people worried about immigration" because they want direct, immediate solution. Thing is not even those are real. You cannot stop immigration, halting it won't change the fact that they are still coming and what about the people already inside, won't they cause trouble? Not to mention talking about immigration while being part of the Schengen zone is loving hilarious because inter european migration is almost always higher than outside migration, but people are way too busy being racist towards middle eastern people than go back to the good old days and bitch about eastern-europeans being loud and stealing jobs. So ultimetly it ends up about how we should just kill a little bit of migrants in the alter of progress.... except that doesn't even work. Why would the voter go for the diet racist party when the real racists have been doing this longer and they are louder. This whole thing is pretty common pitfall I see online where leftists try to fight right policy with right-wing tools, except it never works because the right holds all the cards, especially if you play their game. In almost every case, popular opinion is shaped by the media which is almost always right wing owned, even if you try to use their messaging tactics, they will straight up not give you the opportunity and platform to push the message.
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Dec 4, 2023 15:13
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Bholder posted:Finding a solution for immigration is finding a fake solution for a fake problem. People are not losing jobs to immigrants, companies are just going for cheaper workforce, crime is not commited by immigrants because they are just "not like us" and "their culture is just different", it because they usually live in impoverished conditions. Leftist solutions would be to target these issues directly, giving more worker rights and supporting poor communities. Its either extremely naive, or deliberately obtuse, to claim culture plays no role in someone's propensity to cause violent crime. How else would you explain immigrants from Kuwait, Tunisia, Lebanon or Jordan having 800% the violent crime rate of immigrants from Thailand, Vietnam or Brazil in Denmark for example? "You cannot stop immigration" - you can't stop intra-EU migration, no, but very few people are calling for that. You can absolutely reduce immigration from outside the EU very quickly if policies are put in place to do so. If grown up conversations about immigration happen, where working class people are actually listened to, relatively humane policies (but more restrictive) can be worked out to reduce migration now, and prioritize asylum seekers from countries that really need it at the same time. ie in the Irish context I posted about before two of the top 5 asylum seeker sources of origin currently are Albania and Georgia, with Georgians making up 20% of last year's total. It would be possible to reduce overall asylum seeker intake by 50% to mollify working class concerns/reduce local housing etc pressure, and still increase the number of people accepted fleeing actual war zones from places like Palestine or Syria or Afghanistan at the same time, with better border control/migration policy.
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Dec 4, 2023 19:32
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Blut posted:I occupy the reality where far-right parties across Europe have gained massive amounts of support over the last 20 years, and polling indicates its largely down to their policy stances on migration. Working class voters have literally abandoned left-wing parties in droves because they weren't being listened to. I have already told you this isn't remotely true, even though the far-right constantly keeps saying this. Far-right political rhetoric has become completely normalised and at least in France, Belgium, Austria, the UK, Italy and the Netherlands (possibly Denmark and Sweden also but I'm not sure), far-right politicians get ample screen time and have their messages amplified by corporate media. And in Belgium at least, every loving time these knobheads win an election, the pundit class acts shocked and then is all "hmm, we should listen to what their voters have to say!", which they already do all the loving time short of letting people use slurs on national television. And even then, a so-called evening debate show that opened to grand fanfare a few years ago on Flemish television had an all-white panel discussing "is it really so bad to use the n-word?" in its very first episode. "We're not being listened to" is bullshit. These people want to be the only ones being listened to and they'll never be satisfied short of that happening. Blut posted:I'm suggesting the left should the respond to the views of the working class it claims to represent. Responding =/= blindly following. If the left was to follow your reasoning at every point in time in democratic countries, women still wouldn't be able to vote, homosexuality would still be illegal and religion would still play a pre-eminent role in social life. It's true that the OG left became big on a few very popular policy positions with the masses, but the classic left would also use its heft to educate its voters, sometimes quite literally so. The electoral successes of Podemos, SYRIZA, PTB-PVDA proves you can build a popular left-wing movement without having to pander to racism. Blut posted:Wanting to temporarily heavily reduce non-EU immigration at a time of a severe housing crisis for example (which is the case in a few countries) isn't remotely racist, and the immediate typical online left response of painting anyone who says this as racist does nothing to win people over to being pro-migration. It just pushes voters into the arms of actual far right racists. Wanting to reduce immigration isn't racist per se. But I hope you're not naieve enough to assume that most people who say this are saying this, in fact, because it sounds much more palatable than "send all the [slurs] back to [some country they aren't even from] like they deserve!!11!".
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Dec 4, 2023 20:50
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mobby_6kl posted:Isn't this really a pretty uncontroverisal statement? Solving poverty is always touted as the right solution to cime rather than more policing. I expect your point could probably be supported statistically, but median household income under $100,000 is not anywhere near the poverty line and that bin is enormous compared to the rest of the bins on that graph. It seems that this is possibly explained by the fact that this is specific to a single county in Maryland, but then I'm left confused by the fact that they have defined it as "by ZIP code" (edit: disregard this, I realized after posting that they could get pretty granular with extended ZIP codes - in common usage people usually mean 5-digit ZIP codes). Edit: in any case, the US is a terrible choice for making the point that poverty absent other characteristics is an indicator for violent crime because of the racial dynamics of American wealth inequality. I would suggest either looking at a more racially-homogenous country like Japan or finding data that speaks about race specifically - if data in the US doesn't explicitly account for race, it's going to be a confounding variable in any analysis of poverty Here's an article from WaPo with a map of the violent crime rate by county: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/crime-rates-by-county/ Does it map to poverty? Well, not that strongly: https://www.povertyusa.org/data Why? Well, this poverty map is based on the federal poverty definition, which doesn't account for cost of living. What if we pick a different measure that means something closer to what we intend? Here's a map with housing-cost-burdened pop by county: https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/son-2019-cost-burdens-map That's a bit closer, you can see in a state like Montana that the regions match pretty close. But wait, why is housing cost burden so different within a state? Probably because that's where people actually live: https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2021/us/census-race-ethnicity-map/ But wait, people usually make more money in cities, so the areas with higher crime will actually be fairly wealthy! Correct, as seen here the vicinity of Montana's small cities moke more money, more-or-less along the same boundaries: https://hdpulse.nimhd.nih.gov/data-...ons=area_states So what is our actual explanatory variable? Is it poverty? - well not directly Is it housing instability? - eh, maybe Is it population density? Could be! Is it income disparity on a smaller geographic scope than county level? Completely possible Could it still be racialized, even in a state as white as Montana? Definitely, and in the American West sometimes you have indigenous people being disproportionately victimized instead of the usual white/black dynamics that most people think of when it comes to American racialization of poverty too! The issue is, in the US all of the possible explanations are VERY difficult to test, because you won't find high-density areas that don't also have higher rates of renters, higher rates of income disparity, and higher proportions of non-white and/or Hispanic populations than neighboring low-population areas. It's also not coincidental that Mississippi and Alabama have higher rates of violent crime across the board than Montana - it's not just the poverty, but the legacy of slavery and segregation (which leads to poverty, natch). In major cities, poverty may at least be transient in the sense that you have groups such as students or recent immigrants that have some hope of greater earning potential either later in life or in the next generation. That's more similar to the situation the EU is dealing with and what people are saying might be solved with better supports. In the Deep South, you have generations of poverty with no hope of even moving out of the state, much less getting any class mobility. When the federal government tries to intervene with programs like the Medicaid expansion (public healthcare for those with low incomes), the state governments outright refuse. All of this to say that the US is hosed up in so many ways that you should absolutely not use poverty data from us to inform policy or make predictions about Europe. BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 15:58
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Pope Hilarius II posted:I have already told you this isn't remotely true, even though the far-right constantly keeps saying this. Far-right political rhetoric has become completely normalised and at least in France, Belgium, Austria, the UK, Italy and the Netherlands (possibly Denmark and Sweden also but I'm not sure), far-right politicians get ample screen time and have their messages amplified by corporate media. And in Belgium at least, every loving time these knobheads win an election, the pundit class acts shocked and then is all "hmm, we should listen to what their voters have to say!", which they already do all the loving time short of letting people use slurs on national television. And even then, a so-called evening debate show that opened to grand fanfare a few years ago on Flemish television had an all-white panel discussing "is it really so bad to use the n-word?" in its very first episode. Far-right politicians "getting ample screen time" is a complete moving of the goal posts, and not remotely related to what I said. My point from the start has been most mainstream left-wing political parties in Europe don't have migration policy platforms that align with the wishes of their working class voters. Which is a large part of the reason why working class voters have abandoned them en-masse. In most countries policies on homosexuality being illegal, or religion being prominent in social life, were in fact only changed when a majority of the electorate wanted them changed. Democracy worked. In some countries, again I'll use Ireland as an example, these things are often literally decided by asking the people in referenda - ie gay marriage being legalised - which is a fantastic example of direct democracy in action. The idea that you can force people to accept wildly unpopular policies hande down from high is both morally questionable, and electorally very stupid. You're suggesting Podemos (5/350 seats in Spanish parliament), Syriza (36/300 seats in the Greek parliament) and PTB-PVDA (12/150 seats in the Belgian parliament) as popular left-wing movements in 2023? Lol. Far right parties in these countries and most others are wildly more electorally successful, and growing rapidly. Up to 80% of working class voters want to reduce migration, depending on the country, according to polls. I would assume that 80% of working people aren't in fact virulent racists in the year 2023 yes. The fact they're also often against migration from white European non-EU countries like Albania or Georgia would suggest to me its about economic, social and cultural factors more than racism. Most working class people are not actually ignorant, uneducated, racist monsters - they're good people, who're primarily just worried about their quality of life decreasing every year.
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Dec 5, 2023 20:25
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Blut posted:You're suggesting Podemos (5/350 seats in Spanish parliament), Syriza (36/300 seats in the Greek parliament) and PTB-PVDA (12/150 seats in the Belgian parliament) as popular left-wing movements in 2023? Lol. Far right parties in these countries and most others are wildly more electorally successful, and growing rapidly. I don't know where you got 5/350 for Podemos, they got 31 after joining Sumar and the Socdem PSOE party just won the general election without having an anti immigration platform.
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Dec 5, 2023 20:47
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Elman posted:I don't know where you got 5/350 for Podemos, They just quit the Sumar parliamentary group. 
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Dec 5, 2023 22:18
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Blut posted:Far-right politicians "getting ample screen time" is a complete moving of the goal posts, and not remotely related to what I said. My point from the start has been most mainstream left-wing political parties in Europe don't have migration policy platforms that align with the wishes of their working class voters. Which is a large part of the reason why working class voters have abandoned them en-masse. No, you quite literally said we're "not listening enough" to far-right voters, while in fact we do and ad nauseam. In Flanders at least, positions on immigration among major political parties, perhaps barring the Greens, are almost indistinguishable. As I pointed out before, you and the far-right both handily conflate immigration with dealing with issues related to (descendants from) immigrants already here. Back in the late '90s, voters who were coming of age just like me were quite open their vote for the far-right was in hopes of "kicking the [target ethnic group] out". This obviously also included closing the borders to future arrivals, but the main goal of the average far-right voter has always been a desire to see the people of foreign origin who are already here kicked-out, denied rights or made life even more difficult that it already is to pay for transgressions real or perceived. You can't realistically expect left-wing parties to pick up these policy ideas and survive with their moral core intact (not that some aren't trying). Blut posted:In most countries policies on homosexuality being illegal, or religion being prominent in social life, were in fact only changed when a majority of the electorate wanted them changed. Democracy worked. In some countries, again I'll use Ireland as an example, these things are often literally decided by asking the people in referenda - ie gay marriage being legalised - which is a fantastic example of direct democracy in action. The idea that you can force people to accept wildly unpopular policies hande down from high is both morally questionable, and electorally very stupid. I'm very certain there wasn't majority support for gay marriage becoming legal in Belgium in 2002, what mattered more was that fierce opposition was limited. In my home city, the left-wing ruling coalition made the city centre almost completely car-free against the knee-jerk reflexes of the majority but now almost no one wants to go back to how it was before. Policies carrying a majority is important, but if that's you're only litmus test, you end up with a form of majoritarianism where minorities can be denied rights forever. Or do you think that women only getting the vote in one Swiss canton in the 1990s is a fantastic example of direct democracy in action? Blut posted:Up to 80% of working class voters want to reduce migration, depending on the country, according to polls. I would assume that 80% of working people aren't in fact virulent racists in the year 2023 yes. The fact they're also often against migration from white European non-EU countries like Albania or Georgia would suggest to me its about economic, social and cultural factors more than racism. Most working class people are not actually ignorant, uneducated, racist monsters - they're good people, who're primarily just worried about their quality of life decreasing every year. You can be racist against other white people too, you know. Ask a Bosnian about it, perhaps. Also, as I said, this mostly isn't about immigration. In some cases it's even wholly imaginary. Both my maternal grandparents voted for the far-right despite never even having seen a person of immigrant stock in their lives, except on commercial television where they were invariably portrayed as sinister criminals. Also, you can be both genuinely worried about your quality of life decreasing every year as well as be racist. In fact I believe most people with racist ideas can be decent people on other levels. The focus should be on how to get people to become less racist, not how to pander to them more.
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Dec 5, 2023 22:21
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Pope Hilarius II posted:No, you quite literally said we're "not listening enough" to far-right voters, while in fact we do and ad nauseam. The only one whos claiming far right voters aren't being listened to by the media on this is you, it seems to be a bugbear of yours. Go through the last 3 pages and ctrl+f for "listen" and its you repeatedly mentioning it in every post for some reason. I've stated my position, clearly, multiple times. ie: "I've been very clear in my stance that the modern left-wing parties need to have policy platforms that actually reflect the fears/desires of working class voters" Left wing parties in the past were anti-immigration and their "moral core" was still completely intact. Being pro-unrestricted migration is not an absolute criteria for a political party to be left-wing, but I suppose knowing that would require decent actual knowledge of political systems beyond a reddit left-wing politics level. Which you bringing up the "electoral successes of Podemos, SYRIZA, PTB-PVDA" as popular left-wing movements in 2023 would suggest is rather lacking I guess. quote:I'm very certain there wasn't majority support for gay marriage becoming legal in Belgium in 2002, what mattered more was that fierce opposition was limited. In my home city, the left-wing ruling coalition made the city centre almost completely car-free against the knee-jerk reflexes of the majority but now almost no one wants to go back to how it was before. Policies carrying a majority is important, but if that's you're only litmus test, you end up with a form of majoritarianism where minorities can be denied rights forever. Or do you think that women only getting the vote in one Swiss canton in the 1990s is a fantastic example of direct democracy in action? Functioning democracy is literally majoritarianism. If you want to run a state where a self-defined elite minority get to decide policy, against the direct wishes of the vast majority of the population, you can make all the selected moral defenses for it you want but thats not a functioning democracy. And sooner or later that state will explode with the repressed anger of the majority. And, again, this is not my philosophical theory. The previously extreme, minority, far right are already now the largest party in multiple EU countries, and will take power in plenty more by decade's end. And polls show they're being voted for largely based purely on migration policy. The long term effect of ignoring the preferences of a large % of the population on migration is unfolding before our eyes, and its not going to be pretty. quote:You can be racist against other white people too, you know. Ask a Bosnian about it, perhaps. Also, as I said, this mostly isn't about immigration. In some cases it's even wholly imaginary. Both my maternal grandparents voted for the far-right despite never even having seen a person of immigrant stock in their lives, except on commercial television where they were invariably portrayed as sinister criminals. Lmao you're so desperate to call working class Europeans racist you're now suggesting they're acting out of racism against other white people? Yes, its definitely that and not economic and social issues, for sure. You've got an extremely unhealthy obsession about racism, and I say this as a brown person of immigrant stock living in Europe who has almost certainly experienced it more first hand than you.
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Dec 6, 2023 13:53
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Being fair, racism against other whites is the lifeblood of being European, as you of teutonic skull shape should know.
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Dec 6, 2023 16:57
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Tesseraction posted:Being fair, racism against other whites is the lifeblood of being European, as you of teutonic skull shape should know.
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Dec 6, 2023 18:55
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Blut posted:The only one whos claiming far right voters aren't being listened to by the media on this is you, it seems to be a bugbear of yours. Go through the last 3 pages and ctrl+f for "listen" and its you repeatedly mentioning it in every post for some reason. I've stated my position, clearly, multiple times. ie: "I've been very clear in my stance that the modern left-wing parties need to have policy platforms that actually reflect the fears/desires of working class voters" Can you link some leftist parties that where previously anti-immigration? The left actually does address workers concerns, from work legislation, to healthcare, to pensions, to education, to basic services. They just are not anti-immigration. A lot of leftist parties have actually identified that better conditions to migrants means better conditions for all thats why most major unions have a support platform for migrants.if it’s more difficult and onerous to exploit them, capital wont have the incentives to do so. Are those 80% of working class single issue voters?
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Dec 6, 2023 19:16
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left-wing parties in europe also don't have a very strong line on the national question, generally just saying
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Dec 7, 2023 00:59
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Can you link some leftist parties that where previously anti-immigration? Harold Wilson's Labour party introduced the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1968 to forcefully limit migration. In the mid 1980s proposals of the Partito Comunista Italiano (Pci), Partito Socialista Italiano (Psi) and Democrazia Cristiana (Dc) were merged and brought into law as Foschi Law, the first major anti-immigration step for the Italian government. The Partito Repubblicano Italiano (Pri) was also instrumental in bringing in the 1990 Martelli law. Mitterrand's Socialist Party in France had stated migration goals throughout the early 1980s that included "to stop further illegal immigration through the intensification of border controls and to penalize employers who hire illegal aliens or who contract to bring illegal aliens into the country". etc The problem is in 2023 "better conditions to migrants means better conditions for all " doesn't actually apply in real life. Moving large numbers of migrants into working class areas that already have housing crises, with overburdoned schools and hospitals, and underfunded social services means theres a direct cost to working class people's quality of life from these new arrivals. Thats also leaving aside the fact that more competition for low end jobs drives down wages and working conditions that would otherwise be improving in tight labour markets, and the cultural/social loss of community that happens. Its why continued large scale migration is the dream scenario of the capitalist class. A shortage of renters, and a shortage of working class people to do underpaid jobs, is their nightmare. Both of which are very efficiently remedied by large-scale migration. 80% of working class voters being single issue voters depends on the country. But in almost every European country that I've seen figures on these days large majorities of working class voters want a reduction in migration numbers, and deem it a very important issue. From a very quick Google, since Germany was being previously discussed. This is all voters but it shows the trend, its even more pronounced in working class communities. ie: quote:The topic of immigration is currently affecting Germans more than any other. In the DeutschlandTrend for the ARD morning magazine , 44 percent of those surveyed named it as, in their opinion, the most important political problem that politicians should address as a matter of priority. The area of environmental protection and climate change follows in second place with 18 percent. https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/deutschlandtrend/deutschlandtrend-3406.html[ Blut fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 17:55
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Blut posted:The problem is in 2023 "better conditions to migrants means better conditions for all " doesn't actually apply in real life. Moving large numbers of migrants into working class areas that already have housing crises, with overburdoned schools and hospitals, and underfunded social services means theres a direct cost to working class people's quality of life from these new arrivals. *Immigrants largely being a subsection of the former **Like you just did
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Dec 7, 2023 18:20
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Blut posted:Harold Wilson's Labour party introduced the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1968 to forcefully limit migration. Hey man, thank you for the links and info. I disagree that those policies make those parties anti-emigration, thou I might be conflating anti emigration with anti emigrant. I agree that we are looking at this like game theory,like there are only a limited amount of houses and you cant just …build more or that public services being underfunded is a immutable truth.(which might be in our hellworld countries) Messaging that is harder than “no more emigrants” though
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Dec 7, 2023 19:36
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Blut posted:Harold Wilson's Labour party introduced the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1968 to forcefully limit migration. Based on the whitepaper mentioned here: quote:Back in the summer of 1965, Harold Wilson’s Labour government published a radically restrictive white paper on immigration from the British commonwealth that shocked even cabinet ministers. “This has been one of the most difficult and unpleasant jobs the government has had to do,” the housing minister Richard Crossman wrote in his diaries. “We have become illiberal,” he mourned. “This will confirm the feeling that ours is not a socialist government.” Passed the immigration bill. Two years later, they lost the election to the Tories, who had the same year as the immigration bill given one of the most racist speeches in British mainstream political history, when Enoch Powell gave his Rivers of Blood speech.
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Dec 7, 2023 19:51
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Speaking of how well it's going in Denmark, they just passed a law banning burning of religious texts to stop far righters from stirring up poo poo by walking into Muslim neighborhoods burning Qurans, and now chuds are crying because this goes against their free speech rights to essentially do the Muslim version of the Die Hard 3 sign scene. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67651580 quote:Denmark's parliament has banned the "inappropriate treatment" of religious texts - with a bill widely known in the country as the Quran law.
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Dec 8, 2023 10:59
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Glah posted:What are the core aspects of leftism that if you veer from them you cease to be one? As an umbrella term, leftism has wildly different approaches under it. From policy views that want central planning to believers in market economy, from wanting workers to own the means of production with one party steering the will of proletariat to syndicalists who see unions being the prime movers of politics to believers in capitalist relations of production but with regulation and all encompassing welfare state. Those have some deep contradictions in actual policies between each other, yet all are traditionally thought to belonging under leftist politics. Generally the principal of universal solidarity, that a worker is a worker no matter if they stepped off the gang plank a day ago or a dozen generations ago. Once you are infected with nativism you are doomed to be eroded under no true Scotsmanism into irrelevancy, often taking a large portion of the working class into insular anger with you. It makes it easier to justify ageism against the young too, that this new generation is stuffed full of lazy group Xs children and new immigrants and slip in toxic policies that alienate new workers from labor institutions to benefit the established workers and get management both a faster deal and the slow death of the union. It normalizes a baseline competitive mindset within the working class.
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Dec 9, 2023 02:08
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Blut posted:Its either extremely naive, or deliberately obtuse, to claim culture plays no role in someone's propensity to cause violent crime. How else would you explain immigrants from Kuwait, Tunisia, Lebanon or Jordan having 800% the violent crime rate of immigrants from Thailand, Vietnam or Brazil in Denmark for example? The classic left wing practice of assuming racial and cultural inferiority instead of doing actual material analysis, on why *squints*, on having been accused of a violent crime, 8% of Muslim immigrants in Denmark tend to be convicted as opposed to 2% of Thais. In Canada, indigenous Canadians and people from the Caribbean are more over represented compared to Arabs, I guess Muslims get less relatively violent in the cold? Or is it due to the material conditions of immigration (which socio economic classes tend to immigrate to a particular country, what kinds of discrimination they face in the job market, historical treatment of different ethnicities and the indigenous, general poverty rate as a result of a confluence of these factors). It's funny you're banging on about how left wing parties need to adopt anti immigration platforms, it looks like you've spent years (!) in this thread complaining about immigrants - you don't actually give a poo poo about left wing policy being enacted or bettering the conditions of the working class (of which immigrants form a significant component), you are a xenophobe. An overwhelmingly large majority of people in the republic of Ireland are ethnically Irish, and the status of the working class has far more to do with neoliberal abandonment of the working class as a whole than your fixation on race. The skyrocketing cost of housing can be fixed by building public housing and a refocus on public and societal welfare without demonizing immigrants, but I have a strange feeling the last bit is what actually matters to you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) mila kunis fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 10:04
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Barrel Cactaur posted:Generally the principal of universal solidarity, that a worker is a worker no matter if they stepped off the gang plank a day ago or a dozen generations ago. Once you are infected with nativism you are doomed to be eroded under no true Scotsmanism into irrelevancy, often taking a large portion of the working class into insular anger with you. It makes it easier to justify ageism against the young too, that this new generation is stuffed full of lazy group Xs children and new immigrants and slip in toxic policies that alienate new workers from labor institutions to benefit the established workers and get management both a faster deal and the slow death of the union. It normalizes a baseline competitive mindset within the working class. This would mean that all the major European leftist parties ceased to be leftist following the failure of second international, at least for a while. And I can actually understand that argument, even if narrowing the definition means that political analysis starts getting more difficult. Like are WW1 era policies of different social democratic parties then what, if not leftist? Related to this, I'd actually want to see deeper analysis on European leftist parties co-operating in EU context. Like there's of course political groups like S&D and GUE-NGL in European Parliament doing pan-European leftist politics at this very moment, but I really don't have a handle on how those transform into work in European Council, ie. do those European governments with leftist cabinets actually work in Council mainly on intergovernmental level or do they use the framework of political groups of the European Parliament to co-ordinate efforts? If anyone has any good reading on the subject, I'd be grateful... But still, on worker level it is heartening to see cross border co-operation going strong, like in the Nordics where Swedish unions are fighting Tesla and now Norwegian, Danish and Finnish unions are striking against Tesla in solidarity with more cross border actions being probable.
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Dec 9, 2023 11:12
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mila kunis posted:It's funny you're banging on about how left wing parties need to adopt anti immigration platforms, it looks like you've spent years (!) in this thread complaining about immigrants - you don't actually give a poo poo about left wing policy being enacted or bettering the conditions of the working class (of which immigrants form a significant component), you are a xenophobe. I was wondering when the commissar will arrive with Blut's folder.
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Dec 9, 2023 14:07
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It's fair criticism. Nativism and working class advocacy are pretty contradictory in most of central Europe nowadays. Such a person has either never been to a factory floor, a cleaning company or nursing home in the last 40 years or they don't really give a poo poo about the interests of the working class beyond platitudes.
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Dec 9, 2023 16:44
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GABA ghoul posted:It's fair criticism. Nativism and working class advocacy are pretty contradictory in most of central Europe nowadays. Such a person has either never been to a factory floor, a cleaning company or nursing home in the last 40 years or they don't really give a poo poo about the interests of the working class beyond platitudes. Talking about how long a poster has been a member here or their posting history is an ad hominem.
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Dec 9, 2023 17:53
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Doctor Malaver posted:Talking about how long a poster has been a member here or their posting history is an ad hominem. As for the specifics, the point wasn't how long they had been a member, but how long they've been pushing a position. if you have years of posting that's contradictory to how you portray yourself in a current argument, that's a pretty big indicator that you're arguing in bad faith. More so if your current argument actually pushes the same position as you have for years, just with a different rhetorical approach. Of course if you think the above is what's going on, the rules are pretty explicit about you needing to report it, rather than doing a call-out. END OF META DISCUSSION
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Dec 9, 2023 18:44
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Doctor Malaver posted:Talking about how long a poster has been a member here or their posting history is an ad hominem. Posting FBI crime statistics and how that’s due to inferior black culture being inherently more violent wouldn't fly here for a second but it’s acceptable to post poo poo like that about muslims in Europe? Get the gently caress outta here. Dogshit moderation in this thread. The other point I was making which isn't an "ad hominem" is that immigrants ARE part of the loving working class (and disproportionately so), and there’s nothing "leftist" or pro working class about marking them as the problem. Would you make the argument that the response to the rise of the Nazis in weimar Germany's electoral politics was that the SPD had to get more antisemitic and cater to the worst impulses of the German people? Well I’m sure racists would for sure make that argument, but I posit that anyone on the left would instead point to abandoning the SPD policy of supporting liberal austerity in the middle of a loving depression that boosted the nazis in the first place as something they should’ve addressed instead. There’s nothing left wing about anything he’s proposing, and it's relevant to point out his posting history doing so.
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Dec 10, 2023 09:17
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I don't think I've ever seen that claim before. The closest is "There's a whole lot of overlap between what the working class needs, and what immigrants need*, so the two would be better off working together to claim what they need rather than treat society as a zero-sum game where underfunded social services are just a fact of life**". I mean, its both a pretty widespread claim and also very much grounded in the real world? I'd love if we consistently all lived in societies with abundant levels of social housing, and a very tight labour market where employers were forced to treat their minimum wage employees well. And where social welfare, education, and healthcare were adequetely funded in deprived areas. But unfortunately we don't, so it very much is a zero-sum game. More competition for these scarce resources empirically reduces the quality of life of the working class today. Even if we got proper left-wing governments elected today, across the continent, it would still take years to remedy the many housing crises. And in the meantime housing thousands of new arrivals per year does very much reduce quality of life for the local working class on decades long housing lists in those areas. GABA ghoul posted:It's fair criticism. Nativism and working class advocacy are pretty contradictory in most of central Europe nowadays. Such a person has either never been to a factory floor, a cleaning company or nursing home in the last 40 years or they don't really give a poo poo about the interests of the working class beyond platitudes. Advocating for policies that the vast majority of working class people are literally on the record as being against in the year 2023 would to me suggest someone advocating for more mass migration is actually the one who has "never been to a factory floor, a cleaning company or nursing home in the last 40 years". Go to your local factory floor tomorrow and do a straw poll on their feelings on mass migration and come back to me. mila kunis posted:The classic left wing practice of assuming racial and cultural inferiority instead of doing actual material analysis, on why *squints*, on having been accused of a violent crime, 8% of Muslim immigrants in Denmark tend to be convicted as opposed to 2% of Thais. In Canada, indigenous Canadians and people from the Caribbean are more over represented compared to Arabs, I guess Muslims get less relatively violent in the cold? Or is it due to the material conditions of immigration (which socio economic classes tend to immigrate to a particular country, what kinds of discrimination they face in the job market, historical treatment of different ethnicities and the indigenous, general poverty rate as a result of a confluence of these factors). The pre-existing material conditions of immigration are rather irrelevant to the working class Danish population. What the crime statistics show is that if you're only letting in a limited number of migrants per year (which is the reality, given limited resources) you can, and absolutely should, prioritise letting in those who a) are still deserving (fleeing war/persecution etc) but b) are also most likely to benefit your citizens. ie less likely to cause violent crime. Ireland took in 121k non-EU migrants / asylum seekers last year (for a country with a population of 5.1mn) and the state is currently housing approx 85k of them. The state would need to be building 30k+ social housing units a year to house them alone, nevermind making any dent in the current worst housing crisis in the history of the state, or dealing with natural growth. The state built 10k, at best (the figures are somewhat fudged), in 2022. Even if Ireland elected a properly left-wing government tomorrow, and they institued a massive increase in the building social housing (both of which should ideally happen, but are unlikely), it would take years to reach the construction level required to be able to deal with this amount of immigration. And in the meantime the working class suffer. So it makes perfect sense why they would want to limit migration for a few years - it can always be increased again in the future, when there is spare housing capacity. Thats a policy based on a grasp of reality, not xenophobia or racism. I'm flattered that you've apparently spent years reading my posts and found them memorable. I've never once mentioned race in any of my posts apart from mentioning the fact I'm personally not white, but the immediate default to calling someone who questions mass migration as racist (without any basis in reality) is precisely the point I've been making over the last few pages about the attitudes of a lot of the too-much-online modern left. Its the exact attitude that has driven, and is still driving more, huge numbers of working class voters to the far right. Blut fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 13:53
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Blut posted:Its either extremely naive, or deliberately obtuse, to claim culture plays no role in someone's propensity to cause violent crime. How else would you explain immigrants from Kuwait, Tunisia, Lebanon or Jordan having 800% the violent crime rate of immigrants from Thailand, Vietnam or Brazil in Denmark for example? America is not an example for anyone, but that doesn't happen with those same immigrants here, mainly because the ones that make it here from those come through refugee/asylum programs that let them work and not be an outcast, in Europe those same even with legal status would have harder chances to being hired and difficulties accessing any social services as well a lot of racism/xenophobia/etc. And also, again America is not an example to follow but violent crime has severe consequences here legally, while back in my country Portugal I'd say that its severe as a local to be confined for a quarter of the time that you'd be in America as you'd be away from family, friends, the world, etc. But for someone with no roots there that is not a deterrent and being treated horribly by everyone probably also makes them not care on consequences unless you make them medieval like in America which is the wrong way to go. Improve people's condition and probably you won't deal with as much violent crime as people are unlikely to be violent if their needs are met.
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Dec 13, 2023 06:37
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Celexi posted:America is not an example for anyone, but that doesn't happen with those same immigrants here, mainly because the ones that make it here from those come through refugee/asylum programs that let them work and not be an outcast, in Europe those same even with legal status would have harder chances to being hired and difficulties accessing any social services as well a lot of racism/xenophobia/etc. Also the jus soli citizenship present in almost every country in both Americas is a big advantage for immigrant integration. Making sure every second generation immigrant is a citizen really helps ensure the third generation is fully integrated into society. Whereas in some EU countries, >10% of second generation immigrants still don't have citizenship. https://www.ft.com/content/62b70a23-ed5b-4cb2-b760-76aa9cc31180 quote:EU finance ministers have bowed to German pressure for tough debt-reduction rules, as part of a deal to phase in a sweeping overhaul of the union’s budget framework. Germans win again. You will never escape austerity.
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Dec 20, 2023 19:48
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golden bubble posted:Germans win again. You will never escape austerity. Jesus Christ, not again.
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Dec 20, 2023 19:52
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| # ? May 29, 2024 20:39 |
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Death by slow self-asphyxiation it will be then. So much for the most powerful economic bloc in the world and all other stupid bullshit we keep telling ourselves.
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Dec 20, 2023 19:58
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