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Given what they did to the old feller they posed a "we're so humanitarian" propaganda photo with a few weeks ago, I am not confident that any of those people will ever be seen alive again.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:38
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run on sentience posted:What was Hamas' goal with Oct 7? Even as someone with only basic knowledge on I/P it was very predictable that Israel would respond by using it as an excuse to execute their dream of total obliteration, brutal torture, and genocide of Palestinians. Did they make the mistake of believing that Israel would give a single gently caress about Israeli hostages and that it would give them leverage? Not an expert by any means, but a line I’ve seen analysts bring up a few times is that they were goading Israel into an overreaction that would weaken Israel internationally while also stymieing/upsetting the then imminent normalization with Saudia Arabia. Possibly they did not expect this degree of an overreaction and possibly even the degree of success they had on 10/7 itself. They expected the IDF to do something instead they had less resistance than anticipated.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:38
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It depends on whom you ask. It could be retribution for settlers violence and IDF brutality (we were looking at 70+ killed even before Oct 7). It could be to kick the status quo that was increasingly making palestinians a bantustan everyone was happy to ignore while the Gulf monarchies made nice with Israel. Not that the sheiks and kings care that much, but it'll be hard for them to shake Bibi's hand under Biden's decrepit smile while Israel is demolishing mosques. They'll have to at least wait a bit until the heat dies down or face some local unrest. It could be to retain political relevance; a resistance force that doesn't resist soon starts to lose credibility. Their main differences that make people favor them over the Fatah are being seen as 1-) Less corrupt 2-) Not sellouts. Could be a mix of those, or other factors. Only the Hamas leadership that somehow planned and carried this out without neither Shin Bet or its moles figuring it out really know.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:41
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Given what they did to the old feller they posed a "we're so humanitarian" propaganda photo with a few weeks ago, I am not confident that any of those people will ever be seen alive again. I saw some reports about it, but I don't think there was a good source beyond someone on twitter who said they knew the man. Still, very concerning that there is no indication that Israel let the other 85% go. Even if not identified as directly linked to Hamas, Israel has no problem indefinitely detaining people without proven links to any organisation. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 18:51
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run on sentience posted:What was Hamas' goal with Oct 7? Even as someone with only basic knowledge on I/P it was very predictable that Israel would respond by using it as an excuse to execute their dream of total obliteration, brutal torture, and genocide of Palestinians. Did they make the mistake of believing that Israel would give a single gently caress about Israeli hostages and that it would give them leverage? It wasn't a mistake, Netanyahu regularly negotiated with hamas for the release of hostages.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:52
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GarudaPrime posted:How corrupt is Hamas as an organization at the top? Hard to say with any degree of reliability. Israel and Egypt say they're corrupt and wealthy, but the Hamas leadership are under considerable financial and economic sanctions and have been subject to numerous assassination attempts, so detailed info about their lifestyles and property can be tough to come by, and many claims about them originate from those two hostile governments. There's also the fact that Hamas itself is also under significant financial and economic sanctions, heavily limiting its access to the global banking system and meaning that Hamas members do sometimes have to legitimately resort to measures that are not generally associated with good honest accounting (like moving large amounts of money using a guy with a briefcase of cash and a handful of armed bodyguards). What we do know is that the head of Hamas' military wing, Mohammed Deif, has survived at least seven Israeli attempts at assassination-by-airstrike, maiming him and killing his wife and two of his children. Ismail Haniyeh, the overall leader of Hamas' political wing, lives relatively safely in Qatar now, but has survived IDF airstrikes and Fatah shootouts in the past, and has reportedly lost at least 16 family members to Israeli bombs since October. In terms of the Palestinian public's view of things, one reason Hamas did well in the elections of 2008 was that they were seen as an improvement over the heavy corruption of the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority. Hard to tell whether they still feel that way, but the PA would've held new elections by now if Fatah were confident of victory. run on sentience posted:What was Hamas' goal with Oct 7? Even as someone with only basic knowledge on I/P it was very predictable that Israel would respond by using it as an excuse to execute their dream of total obliteration, brutal torture, and genocide of Palestinians. Did they make the mistake of believing that Israel would give a single gently caress about Israeli hostages and that it would give them leverage? To put political pressure on Israel by rendering the occupation too inconvenient and annoying for Israeli citizens (and the world in general) to simply ignore.
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Dec 10, 2023 19:09
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Pretty wild that Hamas is firing just as many rockets as they were on October 8th, despite these "mass surrender" events
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Dec 10, 2023 19:24
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DeadlyMuffin posted:And there we have it. Some people believe literally any act committed by Hamas, no matter how horrific is acceptable because Israel is committing genocide. Some people do not think so. What is the world coming to. Hey, we got a funny smell coming from the NICU, someone wanna get some Febreze up there or something (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 10, 2023 19:28
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My guess is that their goals were to goad an overreaction to breaking through the wall, take hostages to save Palestinian hostages, and hopefully stymie normalization efforts between Israel & the dictatorships. They hadn't anticipated that the IDF resistance would be so anemic that they'd run through their list of targets in record time; they probably could have inflicted way more damage if they knew this and sent more than a little over a thousand through. As for if they regret it: probably not. They've gotten everything they could have wanted; normalization efforts are not only dead but severely set back, Israel is taking unprecedented losses just to terrorize civilians*, support for Israel outside of a couple pockets of the world is rapidly draining, their military legitimacy is in tatters, America has set back their diplomatic relations by decades in order to shed the guise of neutrality, and they're going to see record recruitment figures after the war. * IDF claim to have killed thousands of Hamas soldiers, but considering the lack of discipline & access to cameras they appear to have, we'd absolutely be seeing corpse pile selfies were that the case. Instead we have videos of them shooting at walls and taking action game cover behind windows. And strip UN workers naked. Israel has basically done every wrong thing possible in dealing with a guerilla army, and while they'll mourn for the dead, Hamas position from the start is that the status quo is untenable and unsustainable. As former Israeli diplomat Daniel Levy notes, Israel is losing the war: quote:The surprise attack neutralized Israeli military installations, breaking open the gates of the world’s largest open-air prison and leading a gruesome rampage in which some 1,200 Israelis, at least 845 of them civilians, were killed. The shocking ease with which Hamas breached Israeli lines around the Gaza Strip reminded many of the 1968 Tet Offensive. Not literally—there are vast differences between a US expeditionary war in a distant land and Israel’s war to defend an occupation at home, waged by a citizen army motivated by a sense of existential peril. Instead, the usefulness of the analogy lies in the political logic shaping an insurgent offensive. I disagree with some of what they say—I am not convinced that Israel can deal a military defeat for Hamas before their economy craps out—but the rest is astute. For the IDF to win a military victory over Hamas, they need to: quote:- Eradicate Hamas For Hamas to win a political victory over Israel, they need to: quote:- Isolate Israel by demonstrating their brutality & barbarism. The win condition for Israel is to either ethnically cleanse all Palestinians or become the first country to defeat a guerilla army without any support or concessions whatsoever to the embedded populace. The win condition for Hamas is to make Israel a greater burden for US hegemony than it's worth, and to ensure Israel is unsustainable outside of that lifeline, while inhibiting growth towards being self-sustaining. Both sides are capable of losing at the same time, but one is arguably far closer to losing than the other. I think the take on Israel's impact on US relations in the global south is also extremely important; China has already succeeded the US in PPP, they are leading in a massive number of tech fields, they've ingratiated themselves to both Russia & Saudi Arabia, and they are expanding their diplomatic overtures. At the same time, the US has irreparably damaged Europe's viability in transitioning them from Russian gas to US LNG. For the US to continue expanding and to retain its hegemony, it needs to charm the global south. Part of this move was to position US foreign policy as justice-based, ala the Ukraine war, Taiwan conflict, pushing myths of Debt Traps, and recognizing Lula after once deposing him. Weaponizing homegrown anticolonialist anti-imperialist rhetoric in support for the MIC. Israel has completely demolished years, maybe even decades of work in the span of two months. Biden is a true blue Zionist and will accept this, but many in the state department are likely grinding their teeth. Sooner or later a colony that's more trouble than it's worth has to be cut off. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 19:29
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and like it's been said many times regarding many sieges, many folks would rather go out with a blaze of violence rather than slow decay
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Dec 10, 2023 19:43
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https://x.com/imgentledamnit/status/1733705639522603264?s=46&t=I3ACquDUkisT8UsAxdefOwquote:There's a Hebrew language Telegram channel posting nothing but images(still and video) of dead and dying Palestinians with 110,000 subscribers. tldr: a telegram channel posting photos and videos of dead civilians and 110k people reacting with laughing emojis, horribly dehumanizing words like calling them cockroaches, and severed head memes. Next time I see some douchebag say that palestinians were seen dancing in the streets after 07.10, I might post that channel. loving. Monsters. go play outside Skyler fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 20:10
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Neurolimal posted:Israel has completely demolished years, maybe even decades of work in the span of two months. Biden is a true blue Zionist and will accept this, but many in the state department are likely grinding their teeth. Sooner or later a colony that's more trouble than it's worth has to be cut off. Yeah this one's hard to quantify (Especially here on D&D where hope is always a lie) but these past few months have given me the unshakeable feeling that US support for Israel has an expiration date. Something I've never believed before now and I have no idea what that expiration date is or how this current conflict will end, but it's something
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Dec 10, 2023 20:33
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Neurolimal posted:* IDF claim to have killed thousands of Hamas soldiers, but considering the lack of discipline & access to cameras they appear to have, we'd absolutely be seeing corpse pile selfies were that the case. Instead we have videos of them shooting at walls and taking action game cover behind windows. And strip UN workers naked. Neurolimal posted:The win condition for Israel is to either ethnically cleanse all Palestinians or become the first country to defeat a guerilla army without any support or concessions whatsoever to the embedded populace.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RehlhOi6Lpg Neurolimal posted:For the US to continue expanding and to retain its hegemony, it needs to charm the global south. 
BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 00:12
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I think the Israelis are pretty tight-assed about what they show really. For example, I don't think the images of the stripped prisoners was ill-disciplined social media posting, but a deliberate thing that the IDF wants people to see. That is because they want to send the message that if you attack them, they'll humiliate you and emasculate you and turn your cities into rubble, and then they'll deal with the Arab powers that respect that display of strength and work with them anyways like the UAE. The U.S. wants them to do COIN-style methods like Iraq and Afghanistan, but the Israelis will reply, how did that work? They don't believe in it, and this is what I believe they're doing, and when the infantry are actually moving through, they're the last thing that anyone still left alive is seeing after the artillery, bombing from the air, and tanks have destroyed much of the area. Yeah, pretty much. I remember some National Review puke over a decade ago actually decrying the US for being too 'soft' in its imperial ambitions. Britain basically bred its upper class into a caste of unfeeling extraction androids that could claim any choice bit of coast, run opium, empty granaries and let people starve, put down revolts and never flinch or even show doubt when writing home; Even their propaganda and justification literature was for internal consumption, a victory lap. But the US can't help the urge to shake its thralls by the shoulder and wail "WHY DON'T YOU LOVE US? We're the GOOD guys!" in a genuinely wounded tone.
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Dec 11, 2023 01:36
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Sephyr posted:Yeah, pretty much. I remember some National Review puke over a decade ago actually decrying the US for being too 'soft' in its imperial ambitions. I hate to use the "National character" argument but it's kinda baked into our DNA that we escaped one empire to go do our own thing, which is why we love lying to ourselves about how we're totally not an empire oppressing smaller nations.Thus you get the most hilarious brain-dead takes from professional journalists who should know better because they have no idea how to square that contradiction
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Dec 11, 2023 01:46
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Chotiner has a normal (not Chotiner-kicks-this-dummy's-rear end) interview with the "director of ethics and policy at Physicians for Human Rights Israel" who contributed to a position paper by that group describing sexual violence on Oct 7 as widespread and demanding further investigation - not taking any position on whether it was systemic. Most of the interview is about what can and can't be known at this point (or ever). Obviously the interview contains very upsetting descriptions of sexual violence - none in the below quote though. quote:https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-hamas-used-sexual-violence-on-october-7th Another story from a few days ago that didn't get posted here: Netanyahu had a meeting with former hostages and families (including hostages of current families). It was secretly recorded and they are very loving angry with the man who could negotiate the release of remaining hostages and isn't doing so, and bombing the places where the hostages are being held. There's a dynamic where the Israeli state wants to downplay the severity of the hostage crisis - both the threat they face from the IDF bombing campaign and the basic horror of being a hostage - because these facts place pressure on the state to stop the bombing and return to the negotiating table. quote:https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkqi3ypsa Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 02:09
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Chotiner has a normal (not Chotiner-kicks-this-dummy's-rear end) interview with the "director of ethics and policy at Physicians for Human Rights Israel" who contributed to a position paper by that group describing sexual violence on Oct 7 as widespread and demanding further investigation - not taking any position on whether it was systemic. Most of the interview is about what can and can't be known at this point (or ever). Obviously the interview contains very upsetting descriptions of sexual violence - none in the below quote though. the answer to the very first question in that interview: "What do we know about the sexual violence that occurred on October 7th? '....We haven’t interviewed actual witnesses'"
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Dec 11, 2023 02:16
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punishedkissinger posted:the answer to the very first question in that interview: Yeah this was literally the first thing I quoted. I think it was the right decision - she say they felt "not equipped to talk to them and treat them" and if there's any doubt it's better not to re-traumatize. The bulk of the article is about what we don't know, what we'll never know, what we can only know as the result of a legitimate third-party investigation. All they can really commit to saying is that sexual violence was widespread and severe, which is motive to end the violence but not to charge Hamas with systemic sexual violence as a tactic, like the Israeli state alleges. I think the only way these crimes get exposed and their victims get any justice is through a Truth and Reconciliation committee which also accomplishes justice for the larger population of Palestinians who have been targeted for sexual violence and exploitation by the Israeli state. Any initiative unwilling to confront that reality will be too scared of kicking over the wrong box to get all available objective facts on sexual violence on Oct 7. No matter where you start, it all comes down to "first Israel has to stop killing so many Palestinians and humiliating the rest." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 02:36
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I think the Israelis are pretty tight-assed about what they show really. For example, I don't think the images of the stripped prisoners was ill-disciplined social media posting, but a deliberate thing that the IDF wants people to see. That is because they want to send the message that if you attack them, they'll humiliate you and emasculate you and turn your cities into rubble, and then they'll deal with the Arab powers that respect that display of strength and work with them anyways like the UAE. The U.S. wants them to do COIN-style methods like Iraq and Afghanistan, but the Israelis will reply, how did that work? They don't believe in it, and this is what I believe they're doing, and when the infantry are actually moving through, they're the last thing that anyone still left alive is seeing after the artillery, bombing from the air, and tanks have destroyed much of the area. See, I'm not so sure of that, because: https://twitter.com/MarioNawfal/status/1731741384116261368 https://twitter.com/xghostnotesx/status/1733190121351233733 [No gore, just some guys having a good time with loud guns] To each their own, but this doesn't say "we are easily humiliating you, look how brutal we are", if this is a carefully released video then it honestly would say a lot worse about the IDF's competency than if it was a random PR front working on footage. Arguably, Assad proves the point; random theological groups hosed off and formed ISIS when Syria proved too hard to crack, and the Kurds & other ethnic groups that aren't interested in a unified Syria, who actually do have the will and support of their people, still hold onto territory to this day. quote:I think charm is really overrated as a strategy. It's very American to think like that or something Obama would've come up with. China doesn't make friends with charm but by being very direct and straight with other countries about what they can offer and the benefits. When China makes a deal with Saudi Arabia, they don't bring charm because charm means nothing to them. Saudi troops slaughter refugees with grenade launchers and the leaders are fine with that... and America is going to "charm" them to get what it wants? Charm when there's no other options is useless (see: the US empire prior to China's ascension), but when you have two options, and one can say "name how many military bases we have, how many economies we've forcibly privatized, and how many countries we invaded.", then it becomes important to be appealing. The US can't really compete on past history, and so long as they're attached to the IMF & privatization they're not as competitive on economic support, so it's important to find something of value to entice countries. "We will defend you against aggressive states that want to consume you" was a decent one seeing as China actively avoids doing that sort of thing, and they were starting to form a coherent message around Ukraine/Taiwan, but now we are not only explicitly supporting an aggressive state consuming another state, we are doing our best to disincentivize other states from protecting Palestine. E: To provide some meat to my skepticism on IDF 'winning', they've released a website detailing casualties, but as Haaretz notes, the figures are at odds with hospital data, which is more grave. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 03:29
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Israel has been around for 80 years. I doubt it will last 80 more. They'll either drown in Orthodox babies that won't fight or they'll drown in a sea of Palestinians. My guess, like all losing regimes, they'll get more and more violent first.
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Dec 11, 2023 03:46
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Neurolimal posted:Charm when there's no other options is useless (see: the US empire prior to China's ascension), but when you have two options, and one can say "name how many military bases we have, how many economies we've forcibly privatized, and how many countries we invaded.", then it becomes important to be appealing. The US can't really compete on past history, and so long as they're attached to the IMF & privatization they're not as competitive on economic support, so it's important to find something of value to entice countries.
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Dec 11, 2023 03:48
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Jesus III posted:Israel has been around for 80 years. I doubt it will last 80 more. They'll either drown in Orthodox babies that won't fight or they'll drown in a sea of Palestinians. My guess, like all losing regimes, they'll get more and more violent first. more likely they eventually lose US support as the US public turns on them and they have to either go full Rhodesia or SA style
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Dec 11, 2023 04:00
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punishedkissinger posted:more likely they eventually lose US support as the US public turns on them and they have to either go full Rhodesia or SA style Just curious how big is IDF's foreign legion? It's a surprisingly important answer for determining which way they go
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Dec 11, 2023 04:16
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Jesus III posted:Israel has been around for 80 years. I doubt it will last 80 more. They'll either drown in Orthodox babies that won't fight or they'll drown in a sea of Palestinians. My guess, like all losing regimes, they'll get more and more violent first. Climate change is going to force everyone off the land in 80 years anyways. Rising sea waters is going to get rid of what little clean water the Israeli’s have left.
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Dec 11, 2023 04:33
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Jesus III posted:They'll either drown in Orthodox babies that won't fight Basically every Jew in Israel, including basically all the ones in the IDF, are Orthodox, but at varying levels of observance. Virtually all Jewish identity, observance, and thought in the country is Orthodox. What you're trying to say is "Haredi" or, equivalently, "ultra-Orthodox." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 04:37
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Wrong thread sorry
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Dec 11, 2023 04:52
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Neurolimal posted:See, I'm not so sure of that, because: Neurolimal posted:Charm when there's no other options is useless (see: the US empire prior to China's ascension), but when you have two options, and one can say "name how many military bases we have, how many economies we've forcibly privatized, and how many countries we invaded.", then it becomes important to be appealing. The US can't really compete on past history, and so long as they're attached to the IMF & privatization they're not as competitive on economic support, so it's important to find something of value to entice countries.
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Dec 11, 2023 06:52
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Sephyr posted:Another group of brazilian nationals and their relatives was allowed to leave Gaza. However, this time the israeli government decided to twist the knife and denied passage to several members of the same families, splitting them. Many approved people decided to stay behind with their relatives who were denied leave. 112 people were contemplated to leave, but only 85 actually came out. I am embarrassed that I know very little about Refaat Alareer, I only know of his writings but not in any depth. I appreciate the entirety of your post, thank you.
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Dec 11, 2023 06:57
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DarklyDreaming posted:Just curious how big is IDF's foreign legion? It's a surprisingly important answer for determining which way they go The IDF doesn't have a foreign legion, foreign soldiers don't exist because they all immediately get citizenship due to being Jewish. As for the army, they're usually absorbed into regular units, same as anyone who grew up in Israel. There's not that many of them in my experience.
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Dec 11, 2023 07:17
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punishedkissinger posted:more likely they eventually lose US support as the US public turns on them and they have to either go full Rhodesia or SA style I'm not so sure that US support will go down with Israel because of wars like this. For example, Israeli has more sympathy now* than in 2009, with Palestinians having less sympathy. Also, fewer Americans think Palestine should have their own state. This is according to this poll: https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/47887-polls-from-the-past-how-opinion-changed-israeli-palestinian-conflict *This is from the end of October. I couldn't find a more recent poll for Palestine having their own state. It does appear that more people are now saying Israel's response is too much, but I'm unsure if this means that sympathy overall of Israel has decreased. Hopefully this shift does actually mean there is a growing, long-term, support for Palestine among the US populace, but I'm not super optimistic about that. Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 15:05
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Kalit posted:I'm not so sure that US support will go down with Israel because of wars like this. For example, Israeli has more sympathy now* than in 2009, with Palestinians having less sympathy. Also, fewer Americans think Palestine should have their own state. This is according to this poll: https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/47887-polls-from-the-past-how-opinion-changed-israeli-palestinian-conflict Here's a more recent poll from Nov-Dec https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/12/08/americans-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/ A relevant piece of data  Based on previous polls, it still doesn't look like there is a huge fundamental shift in perception of Israel. The negativity is mostly aimed at Netanyahu and his government's actions. Any coalition that is more moderate than that of Netanyahu's is likely to win some people back. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 15:19
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Once you break down those polls by age it becomes even clearer that Israel is on a pretty tight deadline.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:28
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I need to know what those 16% of people think that Biden is doing that favours Palestinians too much.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:29
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Paladinus posted:Here's a more recent poll from Nov-Dec Thanks for finding this more recent poll with a variety of questions. I do wish there was a comparison of historical answers listed here to see how the overall trend of US support looks. Maybe when I have more time later today, I'll see if I can find comparative questions from earlier polls. For the part you explicitly called out, yea, it's not great that only 21% say he's favoring Israel too much compared to 41% who say he's doing well or favoring Palestine too much. But, unfortunately, it's not surprising. Looking at some of these other questions, it looks like there might be a big generational shift here in the upcoming decade. Of course, who knows if that'll stay or if minds change/apathy grows as people age. Does anyone know if this is similar to previous decades? If not, I might try to dig that out to see if there's polling breakdown by age groups.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:32
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Chotiner has a normal (not Chotiner-kicks-this-dummy's-rear end) interview with the "director of ethics and policy at Physicians for Human Rights Israel" who contributed to a position paper by that group describing sexual violence on Oct 7 as widespread and demanding further investigation - not taking any position on whether it was systemic. Most of the interview is about what can and can't be known at this point (or ever). Obviously the interview contains very upsetting descriptions of sexual violence - none in the below quote though. This is the same as the other articles posted here in that the is no evidence here whatsoever beyond what the israeli government puts out and whatever this particular person saw on telegram, which from the interview look like the already public videos that do not show any evidence of sexual assault. This is just somebody regurgitating the exact same lurid israeli government lines to the New Yorker. She even admits that she and her organization have not interviewed any victims or even eyewitnesses.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:33
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hamas doesn't even have a website
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Dec 11, 2023 15:47
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punishedkissinger posted:Once you break down those polls by age it becomes even clearer that Israel is on a pretty tight deadline. I wouldn't go that far, to be honest. The majority in the 18-29 group have no strong opinion on Biden's handling of the issue, and even among potential Dem voters, it's a three-way split.  And again, based on historic data, sympathies always fluctuated. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2006/07/19/the-us-publics-pro-israel-history/  There is a trend of the age divide on the issue becoming more and more noticeable, however, which is good. Kalit posted:Thanks for finding this more recent poll with a variety of questions. I do wish there was a comparison of historical answers listed here to see how the overall trend of US support looks. Maybe when I have more time later today, I'll see if I can find comparative questions from earlier polls. Pre-Oct 7 polls tended to phrase questions differently, so it's not going to be apples to apples anyway. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 11, 2023 15:47
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Fidelitious posted:I need to know what those 16% of people think that Biden is doing that favours Palestinians too much.
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Dec 11, 2023 16:05
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cat botherer posted:You should talk to my father-in-law! by 2023 this has split into two dozen insane 90+ year olds and probably 1 or 2 special ed multimillionaires. roughly 50 people per 8 billion.
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Dec 11, 2023 17:07
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Kalit posted:I'm not so sure that US support will go down with Israel because of wars like this. For example, Israeli has more sympathy now* than in 2009, with Palestinians having less sympathy. Also, fewer Americans think Palestine should have their own state. This is according to this poll: https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/47887-polls-from-the-past-how-opinion-changed-israeli-palestinian-conflict I think people see poll numbers on a sheet and think that the numbers correspond with power dynamics. And they can to an extent. If "sympathy" for Israel goes up ten percent, it doesn't mean ten percent more pressure on Biden to support Israel committing genocide nor does it mean ten percent less pressure to allow Israel to commit genocide. If, however, "sympathy" for Israel goes up ten points and Biden loses three swing states because Arab-Americans think he's a racist, it's a radically different power dynamic. Similarly, if support for Israel halves but the Israel lobby is still incredibly well-funded, it's unlikely that anything materially changes policy-wise for several years. Polls are more interesting over longer terms because they can indicate generational shifts.
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Dec 11, 2023 17:14
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