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MikeJF posted:Anyone have any tips for getting the spice girls out of your head? Staring at this 13 frame close up should help   Creature posted:That Goblin song is absolute shite, it’s perfect. Song by itself is also up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip13Oz3L48
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Dec 11, 2023 15:59
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LividLiquid posted:I'm with you on just going with it because Gatwa is already perfect, but I have to say, it really doesn't matter whether somebody intended to do damage if they did that damage. Comparing the bigeneration to accidentally shooting someone in the face seems pretty extreme at this point. Where is the equivalent harm to Gatwa? I think a reasonable case can be made that Martha, as companion, was actively harmed and undercut by the one-two punch of loving Ten and Ten loving Rose. But it takes a retrospective look at her season (with the extra cherry on top of her ending up with Mickey) to make that case convincingly. So maybe, over time, a case will emerge here. I see no evidence yet. Bigeneration doesn’t mean RTD can replace Gatwa with Tennant: beyond Gatwa being Fifteen (as avowed by Fourteen), Tennant is very busy and can’t just come back and do seasons of Who again. I don’t recall anyone suggesting Moffat was being ageist by having Eleven call Clara in Twelve’s first episode, and frankly, that felt a lot more anxious than Fourteen and Fifteen hugging and being genuinely delighted with each other. I wish we’d had as much celebration of Thirteen across her entire tenure as we have for Fifteen already (though Thirteen did get to have some).
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Dec 11, 2023 16:11
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I have had a thought about the 'myths becoming reality' situation possibly being a focus: while that's very cool on its face, a lot of its immediate potential is distinctly Earth-based: going into various real-world culture's myths, urban legends and folklore. That's absolutely very cool, and there's ways you could stretch that a little further out both in space (pull in some Martian myths from alien theorists) and time (not only is historical very natural, but there's merit in 'what does the Bigfoot myth look like in the 24th century'), it'd struggle to do a lot of classic Doctor Who alien stuff, it wouldn't really carry a lot of fun to go 'here's an alien planet you've never met before, now meet their weird demon-analog myth'. But what you could do is play with the ideas of the fact that major longstanding Who aliens would have myths. The Cybermen probably don't get to play of course, but there's some solid potential in meeting an Achilles-style ancient warrior hero of the Sontarans, that the Ood probably have some kind of boogeyman, that even the Nestene Consciousness has some kind of superstition. Hell, as outwardly single-minded and robotic as the Daleks want to seem, we know they've got enough internal abstract thought to have myths, rumors and superstitions, let's see what they believe in! ...and then I realized that we already know that last one. Hell, it was a favorite of RTD's. And yet we've never had an entire episode about it. What if we actually get an episode about the Doctor having to meet the Doctor that the Daleks have nightmares about?
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Dec 11, 2023 16:23
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PriorMarcus posted:There was a great example of RTD being able to be really evocative with just a few words in the full script for Wild Blue Yonder that I don't think made it to the screen: Steven Moffat posted:I have notes. Russel T Davies posted:Would you like me to dig deep into this? Steven Moffat posted:When you have time to circle back, yes. Also consider drilling down. 
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Dec 11, 2023 16:27
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Cleretic posted:What if we actually get an episode about the Doctor having to meet the Doctor that the Daleks have nightmares about? It would absolutely be Tom 
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Dec 11, 2023 16:30
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Cleretic posted:I have had a thought about the 'myths becoming reality' situation possibly being a focus: while that's very cool on its face, a lot of its immediate potential is distinctly Earth-based: going into various real-world culture's myths, urban legends and folklore. That's absolutely very cool, and there's ways you could stretch that a little further out both in space (pull in some Martian myths from alien theorists) and time (not only is historical very natural, but there's merit in 'what does the Bigfoot myth look like in the 24th century'), it'd struggle to do a lot of classic Doctor Who alien stuff, it wouldn't really carry a lot of fun to go 'here's an alien planet you've never met before, now meet their weird demon-analog myth'. There was an otherwise largely unremarkable early Big Finish story that dealt with a race that had been stopped from rampaging through the cosmos by the Doctor in the distant past and he was now part of their mythology as a monstrous boogeyman, which significantly impedes his ability to interact with them. He's been around the universe so many times there's got to be more than a few places where he's part of local legend. RTD even plays with the idea a bit in Rose, though through the avenue of Mark Benton's conspiracy theory rather than as a legend.
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Dec 11, 2023 16:33
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Jerusalem posted:It would absolutely be Tom Only if it's Wax Tom being touted about by a herd of Leotard People (and Tom standing off in the corner saying his lines, of course)
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Dec 11, 2023 16:36
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Diabolik900 posted:At this point it all comes down to taste, because I just can’t agree with this at all. There’s a lot of variability in the quality of RTD’s original run, but during my current rewatch I’ve realize I’d much rather watch RTD’s “bad” episodes than any of the other showrunners’ bad episodes, and with Chibnall’s run I don’t have much desire to even rewatch the episodes I enjoyed. yeah, that's where I'm at with modern "Who"
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Dec 11, 2023 16:46
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I saw Vengeance on Varos again. So they discover more Zeiton, but that makes the price go up? Also that would've happened anyway, so did the Doctor really do anything?Open Source Idiom posted:Yeah, that predates BF tbh. It's from the NAs, either All Consuming Fire or White Darkness I can't remember which. I think it was first mentioned in All-Consuming Fire but other NAs mentioned it too. The idea was that beings like the Animus, Fenric, the Gods of Ragnarok, and the Great Intelligence were the equivalent of Time Lords in the universe before the present one, and since the laws of physics were greatly different there, they have godlike powers here. The NA writers had a whole cosmology where there were actually six Guardians, who were all from the previous universe, including the Black and White Guardians, the Toymaker, and even the Doctor. Yeah, everyone wants the Doctor to be singularly special somehow. I don't think many people paid attention to the idea but then the idea of there being six Guardians was brought up again in the 2016 book The Whoniverse. Maybe this was part of Chibnall's plan!
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Dec 11, 2023 17:01
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The first RTD run did big massive things, introduced stuff like the Time War and so on, but it was all in the aid of setting up staging for and kicking off big epic fun stories. Moffat was fond of a puzzle box, but when he did it well it was satisfying because of how it made a tight and wrapped up story, see S5 with the cracks. Where Moffat's style was weakest was when it tried to lean too much on the lore itself as being the engaging part. Chibnalls Timeless Child stuff on the other hand didn't feel like it had much depth, it was a whole lot of "then this happens" and that being the whole story.
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Dec 11, 2023 17:12
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Random Stranger posted:The nice thing I can say about the Chibnall era is the show looked great. Both in terms of how everything was designed and how it was shot. Chibnall probably wouldn't have made the catch scene in The Giggle look so boring. I can't disagree that the catch scene looked rubbish (apparently Gatwa was really bad at it, so they had to edit around his fumbles per the commentary, but that's all said with love and jest by Davies and Tennant), but Chibnall's Who routinely looked loving awful. Any attempt at action scenes was horrendous, like Ryan running off with a gun in the second ever episode or Graham and his dancing shoes. Embarrassing. The street fight in The Star Beast is better than anything Chibnall put on screen visually, and the Not-Things are more inventive, and the Toymaker more fun. I'd be genuinely interested in what parts of Chibnall's run you thought looked good? I remember he liked drone shots.
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Dec 11, 2023 17:18
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Diabolik900 posted:At this point it all comes down to taste, because I just can’t agree with this at all. There’s a lot of variability in the quality of RTD’s original run, but during my current rewatch I’ve realize I’d much rather watch RTD’s “bad” episodes than any of the other showrunners’ bad episodes, and with Chibnall’s run I don’t have much desire to even rewatch the episodes I enjoyed. I'm pretty much of this mindset too. Even back in the RTD1 era, I used to roll my eyes at his tendency to prioritise broad emotional strokes at the cost of hand-wavey technobabble resolutions and lack of structural 'logic'. I always preferred Moffat's style, and was over the moon when it was announced he was taking over. Of course, that proved to be diminishing returns after a while - but gently caress it, the world is a lot harder and I am a lot softer than back in 2009, and I'll now gladly take RTD even on a bad day. Perhaps my biggest complaint with the Chibnall era was that it left me with a vague feeling of "you know... maybe I've grown out of Doctor Who". The joy of the last three episodes (and the promise of what's ahead of us) has been to realise, no, I really haven't. Not yet at least.
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Dec 11, 2023 17:36
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Ugh that Other Doctor stuff makes no sense. If she predated Hartnel, why is her Tardis also a police box? This desire to just upset the status quo constantly just gets frustrating. Anyways, I expected 15 at the end to stop and go "I'm not wearing any trousers" once the excitement wore off.
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Dec 11, 2023 17:40
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twistedmentat posted:Ugh that Other Doctor stuff makes no sense. If she predated Hartnel, why is her Tardis also a police box? When 15 says "I'm not wearing any trousers", that's when the excitement starts
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Dec 11, 2023 17:46
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Detective No. 27 posted:We all know that they’ll keep whatever ultimately happens to Tenant vague so that they can pull him out for future anniversary specials, no matter how old he physically looks. RTD is already retconning bi-regeneration for the reason why past Doctors have shown up looking way older than they were when they regenerated. While that was likely the intention, given the ratings, I don't know how valuable that is anymore. Each of the specials have had worse numbers (5.08m, 4.83m & 4.62m) on the overnights, and none of them have even reached Capaldi's last special let alone Jodie's first episodes (she was pulling in good ratings until Spyfall) which has to have made Tennant a lot less valuable as a possible ripcord to be pulled than he was before the specials.
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Dec 11, 2023 17:50
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twistedmentat posted:Ugh that Other Doctor stuff makes no sense. If she predated Hartnel, why is her Tardis also a police box? It's so that the audience knows that it's a Tardis. I'll give Chibnall credit where it's due, that was a truly fantastic reveal and a great episode. Like, yeah, it doesn't make sense if you stop to think about it for more than a minute, but who cares, it was a great "holy poo poo, what??" moment. I'd far rather that than inventing the Timeless Child mythos (and burning a lot of runtime in a season finale to just have the Master narrate it) in an attempt to rationalise the Morbius doctors.
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Dec 11, 2023 17:51
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twistedmentat posted:Ugh that Other Doctor stuff makes no sense. If she predated Hartnel, why is her Tardis also a police box? What really sucks about Fugitive Doctor is that Jo Martin is really good in that role. Had she been a future regeneration, hell even 14, noone would have had a problem with it. Revealing a future Doctor a season early would have been a  moment for the fandom."  there are multiple Doctors before the first Doctor" just felt disrespectful to decades worth of lore, in the same respect that something like bi-generation is playing with it.Regardless I hope she's brought back. Just have her as an amnesiac Timelord who thinks they're the Doctor or something.
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Dec 11, 2023 17:55
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Tornhelm posted:While that was likely the intention, given the ratings, I don't know how valuable that is anymore. Each of the specials have had worse numbers (5.08m, 4.83m & 4.62m) on the overnights, and none of them have even reached Capaldi's last special let alone Jodie's first episodes (she was pulling in good ratings until Spyfall) which has to have made Tennant a lot less valuable as a possible ripcord to be pulled than he was before the specials. Does that put Disney+ into account? I don’t put much stock into viewership numbers in the streaming era.
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Dec 11, 2023 17:57
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Anywhere between 4-6 million on overnights is in the territory of "doing extremely well" for terrestrial UK telly channels these days.
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Dec 11, 2023 18:00
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Detective No. 27 posted:Does that put Disney+ into account? I don’t put much stock into viewership numbers in the streaming era. I'm pretty sure that's just viewership figures in the UK, where Doctor Who is aired on regular TV. The only thing I think we've heard in regards to D+ as the show's international streaming partner is that the first 2023 special was the "61st most viewed movie on D+" and did particularly well in (IIRC) Australia, New Zealand, and Turkey. What that means for how well it's doing overall, I dunno.
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Dec 11, 2023 18:03
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Tornhelm posted:While that was likely the intention, given the ratings, I don't know how valuable that is anymore. Each of the specials have had worse numbers (5.08m, 4.83m & 4.62m) on the overnights, and none of them have even reached Capaldi's last special let alone Jodie's first episodes (she was pulling in good ratings until Spyfall) which has to have made Tennant a lot less valuable as a possible ripcord to be pulled than he was before the specials. That's a remarkably low drop between episodes for modern TV drama, and the 7+ figures show that viewing figures are actually comparable to the heights of Tennant's first run with 7.6m. Also Unleashed is pulling in insane figures for BBC Three, a channel that was previously cancelled entirely. You're being pessimistic for no reason. In the current TV landscape Doctor Who has been an absolutely success.
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Dec 11, 2023 18:22
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Those numbers look fine, especially for a show that the BBC is only part funding.
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Dec 11, 2023 18:26
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Yeah, it's higher than anything that's not I'm A Celebrity... and Strictly.
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Dec 11, 2023 18:32
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Yeah comparing the numbers when the television viewing landscape has changed drastically is silly. My phone's news suggestions are full of SEO bait headlines hyperventilating over the ratings drops because Who is too woke now.
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Dec 11, 2023 18:34
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Just caught up with The Giggle, not much to add to what's already been said apart from:
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Dec 11, 2023 18:36
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Sort of nice to take a listen to the 15th Doctor's theme now that we've seen Ncuti in action (and got to hear a bit of it in the show) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONkZSnEQY8s
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Dec 11, 2023 18:39
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Look, the answer to why Fugitive Doctor had a police box TARDIS and what happens to Fourteen's Twodis can be neatly explained--it's the same TARDIS, Fugitive just stole it out of the ruins of Earth where it had been waiting on a cliff by the sea after the fall of London. Then Clara gets that after Fugitive because why not
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Dec 11, 2023 18:59
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Look there's enough infinite time for everyone to have a go with the TARDIS at all times, any time. The cheapest trick showrunners pull on us is having the TARDIS leave as soon as we are out of hoarse engine noise range. What's funnier is that it happens faster than an angel can move when someone blinks. It just poots away instantly and back again when anyone approaches, all the slow noisy fade out is because she knows the Doctor likes the drama of it.
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Dec 11, 2023 19:17
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It's canon that the fading and the noise are the Doctor leaving the brakes on.
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Dec 11, 2023 19:21
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I'm glad everyone is getting all the RTD they want. Personally nothing that's been described in any of the three specials sounds like my cup of tea thus far, so I'll be giving the new series a miss. I'm fine with just sticking with the classic series. That being said, hopefully it has a long and healthy run for those who enjoy it 
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Dec 11, 2023 19:36
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Mr Beens posted:Not sure where bi regen being the new normal is anywhere implied quote:"I think all of the Doctors came back to life with their individual TARDISes, the gift of the Toymaker, and they're all out there travelling round in what I'm calling a Doctor verse."
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Dec 11, 2023 19:40
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Yeah except that 14's prize was banishing the Toymaker, and 15's prize was a new TARDIS. 2-13 would have had to have played matches against the Toymaker to be aware they'd won a gift.
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Dec 11, 2023 19:52
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One wakes up, glances around for a minute and says "No, thanks, I was tired."
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Dec 11, 2023 20:02
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I do agree that the game of catch was a bit disappointing - not from a physicality perspective but from a narrative one. The classic way to beat a foe like the Toymaker is to find a way to trick them into thinking they've won the game and then reveal how they broke the rules, or to use the rules of their own game against them, or something like that. Just being better than them at the game you're playing with them doesn't feel like an interesting defeat. It doesn't convey anything interesting about the characters other than "good at catching". If I'd been writing it I'd probably have gone for something like - the Doctors just throw easy softballs back and forth at one another, having the time of their lives at actually getting to hang out with themselves - the Toymaker fumes that this is boring, there's no winner - the Doctors point out that it's still a game and they can do this as long as they like, they once spent a billion years finding their way out of a pocketwatch and now they've got someone to talk about it with - the Toymaker, increasingly frustrated, goes over to the laser "to make the game more interesting" - the moment he turns his back on them, the ball bounces off the back of his head.
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Dec 11, 2023 20:03
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A nice long shot of the two doctors playing simple catch, having a leisurely conversation, would've been great.
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Dec 11, 2023 20:06
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I don’t mind it, the simplicity of the game was the point. I don’t think that plan would have worked. Toymaker seemed like a very patient fellow.
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Dec 11, 2023 20:06
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The game of catch definitely just felt like they ran out of time and wanted to make some ball jokes. I've always wanted the Toymaker to end up challenging the Doctor to some kind of Magic card pastiche or a competitive online video game, it feels like a good way to comment on some of the toxicity that can pop up in those communities.
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Dec 11, 2023 20:10
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The behind-the-scenes revealing that everyone was palming the ball and then revealing it because nobody could actually make a catch explains, to me at least, a lot of why that scene fundamentally didn't work. No wonder it was all quick cuts, they had no actual loving throws to film! But the solution at that point really ought to be either stunt doubles or just mime a game and CGI the ball in later, because seriously, that didn't work. With some wide shots and clever coreography, you could have made it clear that the Doctors were intentionally nudging the Toymaker closer and closer to the edge, to set up the final throw where he couldn't catch it because he had no more ground to give. Whybird posted:If I'd been writing it I'd probably have gone for something like
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Dec 11, 2023 20:14
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Rusty said words, yes, but they're complete nonsense. Like set the stakes on fire nothing matters because literally anything could happen gibberish. I'll reasses if any of that ever makes it to screen, else I think he might have been trolling.
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Dec 11, 2023 20:14
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Also Ten already basically beat the bad guy with a ball at the end of his first episode when he tossed the satsuma at the blood control guys. Get a new gimmick, David Tennant!
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Dec 11, 2023 20:17
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