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Preen Dog posted:Yes, you start blasting at everything you think is the threat, or wait for the threat to reduce your friendlies to a level that makes you comfortable with your portion of guilt in the trolley problem. This is insanity. What you are describing is not only not what a properly trained force would do, it is actually insane to imagine as a rational response. We have plenty of examples of hostile gunmen rampaging in large civilian populations, and the response has universally not been to recreate the the turret scene from Aliens but with attack helicopters.
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Dec 13, 2023 02:56
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Is this going to change anything moving forward? Like, are there going to be any meaningful consciences for Israel if they ignore this?
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Dec 13, 2023 03:14
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https://twitter.com/cameronwilson/status/1734743848985956594?t=d_wStW_mGf1b8sl0ts_8hw&s=19 Crikey is an independent Australian news site, it's looking like the video of crowds chanting gas the Jews was altered and police are unable to verify it actually happened. https://twitter.com/cameronwilson/status/1734761968882581814?t=MdxbRDdtHvAlRrULCLx7kg&s=19 Very telling reaction from the AJA which is a very real organisation and not right wingers using the cover provided to attack others.
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Dec 13, 2023 04:06
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Apparently per this Haaretz article: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...8e-d52f47ac0000 the IDF are only reporting around 15% of their casualties, based on the discrepancy between the IDF and israeli department of health. Full disclosure I'm basing this off a twitter summary of the article because I don't have a Haaretz account. Perhaps you shouldn't rely on Twitter summaries.
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Dec 13, 2023 11:10
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Wonder if Biden will walk this back, too. https://www.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/12/politics/biden-israel-losing-support-netanyahu/index.html quote:“I think he has to change, and with this government, this government in Israel is making it very difficult for him to move,” Biden said, calling Netanyahu’s government the “most conservative government in Israel’s history.” Paladinus fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 12:48
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Paladinus posted:Wonder if Biden will walk this back, too. FYI, your link is broken. Here’s a working one: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/12/politics/biden-israel-losing-support-netanyahu/index.html Even though I know he’s been privately saying this kind of message to Netanyahu, I’m a little surprised he’s publicly said this. Also, why would he walk it back?
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Dec 13, 2023 12:58
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Kalit posted:FYI, your link is broken. Here’s a working one: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/12/politics/biden-israel-losing-support-netanyahu/index.html Probably thinking of this happening earlier:  But this was a much more direct and clear statement from Biden than the earlier tweet was. I'm sure they'll be asked about these remarks so it'll be interesting to see where they end up going with it. I don't have much hope in them holding to this new line in ways that matter like not sending the IDF more bombs while they continue their atrocities.
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Dec 13, 2023 13:11
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Kagrenak posted:Probably thinking of this happening earlier: Ahh thanks. And yea, to me, that seems like more of a clarification than a walk back. And to your last point, Biden already seemed to have suggested that nothing will change, per that article: quote:“We’ll continue to provide military assistance to Israel until they get rid of Hamas, but we have to be careful – they have to be careful,” Biden said. “The whole world’s public opinion can shift overnight, we can’t let that happen.” Kalit fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 13:22
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CSM posted:The article talks only about wounded IDF, and the IDF is reporting 34% compared to hospital figures. That's why I made the disclosure, isn't it? Underreporting by 2/3rds is still completely nuts, and again considering the sources almost certainly another lie. If they're reporting figures this bad the real numbers must be awful.
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Dec 13, 2023 13:30
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:That's why I made the disclosure, isn't it? This is basically as conspiracy minded as calling the Gazan health ministry's figures made up. Both are governmental departments but both operate largely independent of political control and there's no evidence to suggest either is providing deliberately misleading figures. It just also makes no sense to call these highly embarrassing figures which are in huge excess of IDF totals an underrepresentation. Why would they do this when they'll catch as much heat for these numbers as they would for the supposed real total? From the article, Haaretz is the one doing the analysis linking boring daily hospital dispatches to overall casualties, so there's even less reason to call the overall total a falsification: Haaretz article posted:The hospitals' data shows that the number of wounded soldiers to be twice as high as the army's numbers.
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Dec 13, 2023 14:01
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I'm sorry but it is astoundingly naive to believe anything coming from any israeli source at this point. They have lied constantly and consistently about everything, and no one should have any reason to trust anything coming from any israeli source that's not independently verified.
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Dec 13, 2023 14:16
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https://prospect.org/world/2023-12-12-palestinians-imprisoned-social-media-posts/ Biden should at the very least demand that Ben-Gvir and the other top psychos be sacked. Apparently the imperial superpower can't even tell its satellite to keep the apartheid on the down-low. Even that ghoul Reagan managed to elbow Israel and go "You're making the scene look bad, quit the butchery for a bit". Eisenhower slammed the table and got Britain, France and Israel to stop rolling aroung Egypt like it was a new Race for Africa. But the Cold War winner hyperpower suddenly can't do more than faint "Sure would suck if you dropped the white phosphorus we give you on civvies, eh?" innuendo.
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Dec 13, 2023 14:22
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Kalit posted:\ loving Biden. Yeah wow, of course, the absolute worst part of what is going on right now is that it might affect the world's public opinion of Israel. That's the real concern here.
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Dec 13, 2023 15:12
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Sephyr posted:https://prospect.org/world/2023-12-12-palestinians-imprisoned-social-media-posts/ Is there any evidence Biden really even wants to slow them down? The one thing he has admitted to over the decades is being unapologetically Zionist. If Biden can make calls for Netanyahu to back off he can placate his unsettled voters and Netanyahu can show off to his voters that he is defiant of the US; they both politically can pander to their bases. In action, Biden has yet to actually do anything other than withhold some guns? Or have I missed more?
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Dec 13, 2023 15:20
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Kagrenak posted:This is basically as conspiracy minded as calling the Gazan health ministry's figures made up. Both are governmental departments but both operate largely independent of political control and there's no evidence to suggest either is providing deliberately misleading figures. It just also makes no sense to call these highly embarrassing figures which are in huge excess of IDF totals an underrepresentation. Why would they do this when they'll catch as much heat for these numbers as they would for the supposed real total? I can imagine them playing down the wounded but I can't see any way the official ~450 fatalities figure is significantly wrong - every dead soldier is publicly named so if they hide one their family would immediately know. At most they might delay the reporting of deaths for a few days.
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Dec 13, 2023 15:23
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Al-Jazeera reporting the IDF executed women, children, and infants sheltering in a school:quote:Exclusive video and images obtained by Al Jazeera this morning show bodies piled up inside the Shadia Abu Ghazala School in the al-Faluja area, west of the Jabalia refugee camp in the northern Gaza Strip. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/12/13/israel-hamas-war-live-world-calls-for-ceasefire-as-israel-bombards-gaza?update=2554825
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Dec 13, 2023 16:09
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Is there any evidence Biden really even wants to slow them down? The one thing he has admitted to over the decades is being unapologetically Zionist. Feels like just sprinkling some stuff here and there they can point to after this is all said and done and Netanyahu falls on the sword. "Look, we tried to stop them from commiting genocide!"
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Dec 13, 2023 18:19
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E2M2 posted:Netanyahu falls on the sword. Which Netanyahu are you talking about here? Obviously not Bibi Netanyahu, who as a rule does not sacrifice his political power for anyone or anything.
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Dec 13, 2023 18:28
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DeadlyMuffin posted:He's also out of sync with his own party. I was pleasantly surprised to see more Democrats sympathizing with Palestinians than Israelis in this WSJ poll, but almost half sympathize with "both equally" which I find hard to understand. Well hopefully not to dredge up recent thread dust ups, but I have to guess that at least part of that reason is the disproportionate media narratives that portray the issue largely as a "both sides" thing and hyper focus on atrocities committed by Hamas while barely paying lip service to the ongoing genocide or even acknowledging that genocide is happening.
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Dec 13, 2023 20:07
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:This is insanity. What you are describing is not only not what a properly trained force would do, it is actually insane to imagine as a rational response. We have plenty of examples of hostile gunmen rampaging in large civilian populations, and the response has universally not been to recreate the the turret scene from Aliens but with attack helicopters. I don't know how I'd illustrate it. Literature does it. Or the painting of Guernica or Skinny Puppy albums or something like that. One day, the nice liberals want to go back to brunch, but take their brunch away and they're not far removed from wanting the military to shoot the opposition with machine guns. People evolved from primates. Trying to find the reason in the madness seems like an exercise in futility. Testekill posted:Crikey is an independent Australian news site, it's looking like the video of crowds chanting gas the Jews was altered and police are unable to verify it actually happened. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 20:52
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Groovelord Neato posted:Al-Jazeera reporting the IDF executed women, children, and infants sheltering in a school: This seems important! I wonder when we can expect any western reporting on it whatsoever
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Dec 13, 2023 20:57
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:It is insane. It's not rational. But most wars have probably been irrational in terms of means or ends or both together -- and that's reality. People come up with these rational behavior models and then are confused again and again that people in war do the opposite of that. You have 200 hostages, and one choice is a military rescue, but there's a 2/3 chance everyone dies. Turns out, people over and over choose the military option even if it's "rationally" a bad idea in terms of the odds. But in the absence of war and in dealing in terms of non-violent diplomacy, the same people act rationally. All this training (to get them to follow orders to kill other people) is a thin baseline that people fall back to like robots once hit by the shock and horror of what's going on.
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Dec 13, 2023 21:39
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Irony Be My Shield posted:When it comes to the hostages I think the reason why Israel is not negotiating for them (beyond just accepting hostage releases in exchange for basically nothing as in the previous ceasefire) is pretty obvious and was completely foreseeable - Hamas killed more people than they currently hold hostage, and have said they will perform similar mass-killings in the future until Israel is destroyed. Destroying or at least crippling Hamas is Israel's critical priority, as Hamas' continued existence will lead to more Israelis dying in the long-term. Hamas obviously doesn't want to be destroyed so the positions of the two sides is fundamentally irreconcilable. It probably goes beyond even that, with Israel thinking that showing weakness will encourage other enemies to attack even if they can be convinced that Hamas won't repeat October 7th. Yeah, it kinda makes sense when you present it that way. Except that you forget that as long Israel is the way it is, Hamas will exist in some form and aim to repeat October 7th. So yeah, you kind of have to ignore the possibility for Israel to change to think that way.
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Dec 13, 2023 22:11
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Is there anything to indicate the IDF have achieved actual progress in destroying Hamas? Seems like the IDF is actually losing soldiers at a faster rate the last few weeks, and the rockets are being launched just as much.
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Dec 13, 2023 22:14
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punishedkissinger posted:Is there anything to indicate the IDF have achieved actual progress in destroying Hamas? Seems like the IDF is actually losing soldiers at a faster rate the last few weeks, and the rockets are being launched just as much.
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Dec 13, 2023 22:18
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The attacks and abuses of civilians increasing is likely because they aren't making progress on Hamas. Soldiers frustrated by guerilla attacks and unable to pin them down are lashing out at the people they can see. Happens all the time in asymmetric wars.
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Dec 13, 2023 22:26
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punishedkissinger posted:Is there anything to indicate the IDF have achieved actual progress in destroying Hamas? Seems like the IDF is actually losing soldiers at a faster rate the last few weeks, and the rockets are being launched just as much. Recent polling seems to indicate that if anything Hamas is gaining in popularity / support in the West Bank, Gaza and internationally so that's a negative.
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Dec 13, 2023 22:31
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punishedkissinger posted:Is there anything to indicate the IDF have achieved actual progress in destroying Hamas? Seems like the IDF is actually losing soldiers at a faster rate the last few weeks, and the rockets are being launched just as much. The IDF has completely and verifiably - by Hamas itself - destroyed a number of Hamas ministries, like the ministry of health, the ministry of education, and the ministry of energy and sanitation. Also while I doubt the IDF has achieved much of its goal of defeating the military ministry of Gaza, I very much doubt Hamas is launching rockets "just as much" but I haven’t seen any stats on it. Seems highly highly unlikely though considering that half the urban area of Gaza is rubble.
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Dec 13, 2023 22:55
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Saladman posted:The IDF has completely and verifiably - by Hamas itself - destroyed a number of Hamas ministries, like the ministry of health, the ministry of education, and the ministry of energy and sanitation. Aren't those just Hamas referencing the physical schools, the hospitals and the public utilities that Israel has destroyed? Hamas was the government in Gaza.. I don't count that as any sort of progress towards destroying Hamas as an institution.
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Dec 13, 2023 22:59
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:https://x.com/AnimalFriendsSh/status/1734504427199869167?s=20 Note: This is legitimate. https://www.tiktok.com/embed/7291463939592883458 However, I would ask that anyone who wants to post a charity please clear it with the mods first to ensure we don't get one that isn't.
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Dec 13, 2023 23:19
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Grem posted:I think they should. If the Natives where the United States is rose up to grt their land back I'm pretty confident I'd support them fully, yea. For the record I am a Native American and I think the idea of rising up and kidnapping people whose only crime was being born in a place hundreds of years after the offense against Natives was committed is a heinous and abhorrent thing. Non-natives being born in America isn't an offense against me, they didn't take things from me personally themselves. Any offense committed against me happened in the 1800s during the trail of tears when my tribe was evicted to Oklahoma, not in 2023. Sarah and Bob Smith down the street aren't the colonizers and "rising up" to take their....townhouse on a 1/4 acre lot? Besides this is a dumb comparison because Palestine and Native Americans are in very different situations. For one, I'm a citizen. I would not be if I were a Palestinian. I have freedom of movement and can go where I please. Palestinians cannot. Natives have their own problems stemming from colonialism but the Palestinians have it much worse because their genocide is currently ongoing while ours was already successfully completed centuries ago. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Dec 14, 2023 |
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Dec 14, 2023 00:49
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That's cool you should talk to the guy that brought up the stupid rear end analogy in the first place.
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Dec 14, 2023 02:23
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Israel's really pushing its luck with the 'we do whatever the gently caress we want now, and we will continue to do so later' line. https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...f08108e9e7500f0 On top of that, the UK, following the US, will also introduce a visa ban on extremist Israeli settlers. https://twitter.com/David_Cameron/status/1735240073505800334 Hopefully, small things like that will eventually add up to something substantial. Preferably sooner than later.
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Dec 14, 2023 16:00
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Paladinus posted:Israel's really pushing its luck with the 'we do whatever the gently caress we want now, and we will continue to do so later' line. always pretty funny to see western leaders insist that Israel wants to negotiate Peace when theyve been explicitly against both a two state and one state solution for decades now.
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Dec 14, 2023 16:10
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I'm sorry but it is astoundingly naive to believe anything coming from any israeli source at this point. They have lied constantly and consistently about everything, and no one should have any reason to trust anything coming from any israeli source that's not independently verified. You do realize that *you* posted the Israeli source, right? Then someone pointed out an issue with your summary, and now you're attacking the validity of anything coming from any Israeli source. Seems backwards to me.
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Dec 14, 2023 16:34
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To each their own, but I'd argue that your figures being at odds with your own hospital data is more serious than your adversaries saying "Hamas-run" a whole bunch.
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Dec 14, 2023 17:00
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Edit: wrong thread Less sarcastic version: what percentage of the settlers are considered “extreme” here, and doesn’t this imply that all the rest engaged in taking houses and participating in racial supremacist militia activity are legitimate? Best Friends fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Dec 14, 2023 |
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Dec 14, 2023 17:15
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https://twitter.com/MSF/status/1735273895605772525 https://twitter.com/MSF/status/1735273900093723049
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Dec 14, 2023 17:24
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Piell posted:https://twitter.com/MSF/status/1735273895605772525 There are no words to describe how I feel about this. Absolutely monstrous genocidal behavior.
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Dec 14, 2023 17:40
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Piell posted:https://twitter.com/MSF/status/1735273895605772525 It's like their strategy for keeping any specific atrocity out of the news is to just commit the next inconceivably horrible act so fast you can't keep up
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Dec 14, 2023 18:30
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