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Framboise posted:It's worth noting that to some, optimal is fun. I used to think that way, but ever since my LGS closed I've been a bit more meh on cEDH because I don't really have the drive to collect a bunch of cards to just play on webcam and maybe go to a tournament with or something... but I've had a handful of ideas for fun high-power casual decks for whenever I want to come back to it. Yeah, we really need a way to separate "optimized" in the "10 power level, perfect build, complete consistency" sense from "optimized" in the "every card contributes to the deck's plans, regardless of the deck's power level and regardless of whether there are better versions of the card" sense.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:42
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disaster pastor posted:The trick that causes misunderstanding is that "optimal" and "fun" are not on the same axis but people sometimes treat them like they are. One of the most common conflicts in this thread is someone posts a deck, someone else makes some suggestions, and the suggestions get brushed off as "ah, this deck is for fun and doesn't need to be competitively optimized" when really the suggestions were pointing out the possibility that the deck won't be fun. Especially when the decklist is based off a precon and still includes cards that are off-plan, too slow, or active impediments to the deck's plan. There's a difference between optimal and functional, and it's just semantics, but that's what you're getting at. I'd totally rather have a 3 that I can actually play the game with than a 10 where I sit around and do nothing until I just win on the spot (cough, narset, cough).
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Dec 12, 2023 17:58
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Part of the problem is that players have been fed a narrative for years about "optimization", "tryhards", "casuals" and other gatekeeping terms. When people come here for advice, one of the very first things they are always told is "fix your manabase". Often times, detailed changes/instructions are given, but players spurn them because (a) it's not the flashy/sexy way to upgrade your deck (b) they've been told that there's no reason they can't play a bunch of Manaliths (after all, Gavin does it) and (c) there is still, to this day, a misunderstanding that manabases have to be expensive if "optimized" that makes peoples' eyes immediately glaze over. But, repeatedly, we tell them that the reason you have to fix this first, is that not having the correct/enough mana is the #1 way to not get to play the game and have a bad time, and many players are not familiar enough with the stats behind it (or don't care to look at the math) to understand that this is what's making them have bad/inconsistent times and just instead chalk it up to "luck" or "not having the right cards". Fixing your mana base has absolutely never been easier. Outside of ABUR duals, there's absolutely a ton of fetchable lands out there now, a lot of conditionally untapped duals, and beyond that, there's a ton of reasonably efficient mana rocks. Just as an example, if you were building a dimir deck (a.k.a. a no-treasure/no-dorks/no-wild growths) deck, which absolutely is going to want some rocks for ramp, you'd start by looking at this list:
Now, sure, a lot of people just tune out after the first 5 and jam whatever came in their precons, because they've convinced themselves that only big-spender tryhards will dump half their deck's cost into a manabase and therefore nothing matters, but that's obviously not true. You have literally a dozen rock bottom budget options at 1-2 mana that aren't the least bit situational and can slot into evey UB deck until the end of time, that there's no reason to even look down at the last 7 items on the list because they are very extremely bad and will lose you games. But Gavin and WotC continue to jam all these manaliths with a million excuses, and people parrot that forever. If people are telling you "play a Swords to Plowshares" or "stop running Commander's Sphere" it's not because they hate fun, it's the opposite: They want you to have a deck that can actually play its cards and not roll over 20% of the time so that you, too, can be having fun.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:10
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What do you think about wayfarer's bauble and other kinds of effects that put lands onto the battlefield? Im digging them more lately as they don't wreck my game if someone plays a vandalblast effect.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:22
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Spanish Manlove posted:What do you think about wayfarer's bauble and other kinds of effects that put lands onto the battlefield? Im digging them more lately as they don't wreck my game if someone plays a vandalblast effect. They're good
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Dec 12, 2023 18:26
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Wayfarer's Bauble is borderline unless you have a bunch of landfall triggers. It's an amortized manalith.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:43
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Kind if like hiw Cultivate/Reach aren't good enough.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:44
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Toshimo posted:Wayfarer's Bauble is borderline unless you have a bunch of landfall triggers. It's an amortized manalith. Amortizing mana is very good, being able to ramp on 2 with it in the opening is stronger than a manalith, and being able to hold up interaction before cracking it is stronger than a manalith.
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Dec 12, 2023 20:28
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I tend not to do a 1-10. Because, I can't define a 7 over an 8, or a 1 over a 4. I usually run on a three levels. Low Power: Pre-Cons. Slightly Upgraded Pre-Cons. Mid Power: No fast mana (Mana dorks are okay), no quick combos, no tutors High Power: Whatever, unless it's not on my play group's ban list. We have added to the ban list for our play group, mostly for certain cards not being fun (Mindslaver for one). Then CEDH stuff is it's own level. We don't really play that, so it's not really an issue, but CEDH has it's own quick goals of being super efficient. If I were to build a CEDH deck, I probably wouldn't play it with my group.
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Dec 12, 2023 21:57
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I still don't know how to run "good manabases" but I try to when I can. This thread has helped me a lot with my decks!
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Dec 12, 2023 22:03
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I just open palm slam as many untapped duals as I can in a deck and sometimes include a tapland or two, like a triome and maybe Field of the Dead or Boseiju, Who Shelters All.
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Dec 12, 2023 22:13
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I built a pauper cEDH deck just to see and it was cheap without needing to proxy anything, played it against normal non-pauper normal goofball decks. I had forgotten the combos or what the deck did by the time I tried it, so it was a slow start but all the pieces did the things my commanders wanted, so once I had enough of those in play it snowballed and steamrolled quick. Even with pauper limits it's just so much more efficient and laser focused than a normal deck.
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Dec 12, 2023 22:32
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MrL_JaKiri posted:I just put Don Andres in my Evelyn deck and called it a day How about reanimator? Meren is pretty easy to build.
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Dec 13, 2023 03:10
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Embrace the mycotyrant
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Dec 13, 2023 03:55
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PicklePants posted:
That rules. I was a friend to thallids and spikes when I was young.
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Dec 13, 2023 05:03
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Bring back the Nantuko.
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Dec 13, 2023 05:18
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If only there were enough Homarids. Sigh.
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Dec 13, 2023 11:08
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Not to prolong the power level discussion, but I always find the problem is that "how fast can I win?" ignores the two other major axes of a deck of "how consistently does that happen?" and "how likely am I to be able to stop someone else winning?". I see a lot of people with decks that are fine, have a win-con they are playing to etc., but they have a piece or two of fast mana. A tutor or two. Some games they will beast out and win as early as Turn 4 and everyone goes "that's not a 7!", others they will meander around and do nothing at all until Turn 10+. Their deck is then wildly hard to match up because it's power level on the table is totally inconsistent. This then also runs into the second one heavily. Interaction doesn't help you win, and a lot of people only include cards that play into their theme/wincon, so unless their theme is doing some controlly staxy stuff they won't bother including a lot of it. But interaction does massively derail decks that are inconsistent, and can even lead to some bad feels because countering or removing their one key piece leaves them dead in the water for the rest of the game. Some people do really like the "race" gameplay - where you take 4 decks that are medium power, but wildly inconsistent around that, and have barely any interaction, and essentially draw cards to see who goes off. It's certainly a fun and fast way to rifle through a lot of games in an evening and have some wild stuff happen in each one - which is preferential to having a game of low-powered consistency with tonnes of removal where everything keeps getting reset and takes 3 hours. There's a hard to hit groove where you get a good pod were everyone has decks that aren't all insanely powerful, but are interacting with each other - people saying "In Response" to activate abilities and cast spells, and that those decks have enough redundancy and card draw that everyone stays invested right up to the line. TL;DR - Run interaction - Run card draw - Have redundancy - If you can't have redundancy run tutors
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Dec 13, 2023 11:48
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Batterypowered7 posted:How about reanimator? Meren is pretty easy to build. Or Raffine likewise
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Dec 13, 2023 12:06
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Toshimo posted:Part of the problem is that players have been fed a narrative for years about "optimization", "tryhards", "casuals" and other gatekeeping terms. Making my deck consistent and optimal is fun to me. playing tapped lands in a 5 color deck against others is the worst feeling, but yeah financially it's crushing to try and get cards to work with, so my alternative is to find more affordable cards.
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Dec 13, 2023 13:32
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Spanish Manlove posted:Embrace the mycotyrant mike is cool and good and a fun commander
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Dec 13, 2023 15:03
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Why doesn't the TCG Player App load cards into your collection when you scan them in!?>!?!?!?!?
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Dec 13, 2023 16:56
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Spanish Manlove posted:Embrace the mycotyrant Mycotyrant is the commander that I opened in prerelease prize packs and I want to build and just haven't had time to dig into, so, yeah. Interested in seeing other people's decks/ideas, though!
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Dec 13, 2023 17:02
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disaster pastor posted:Mycotyrant is the commander that I opened in prerelease prize packs and I want to build and just haven't had time to dig into, so, yeah. Interested in seeing other people's decks/ideas, though! Here's my latest version, I made a few changes recently to put in things to shuffle my graveyard back into my deck as I've accidentally milled myself out a few times. It's won a few games through effects like craterhoof or sacrificing 30 creatures while meathook and murkwood are out, but it's a slow deck where you make a compost pile that gets very scary for other people until they realize your fungi can't block. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/x8mMquITd0KloPPdNTgB5g Due to the wording on Descend, I didn't want to miss a trigger so each card in there is a permanent. I'd love to be able to run some of the instants and sorceries that would work extremely well in the deck (living death, reanimate, lich knights conquest) but it was fun to try to use some restrictions. People at my LGS keep trying to talk me into modifying it so I can run Omori as a companion and I don't think it's worth it. You lose so much just to have an already low to the ground deck be 1 less mana to cast. Some options in trying to shoehorn in: Yawgmoth for "removal" and card draw Jarad as an alt win con Greater Good for extreme card draw
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Dec 13, 2023 17:47
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Spanish Manlove posted:Here's my latest version, I made a few changes recently to put in things to shuffle my graveyard back into my deck as I've accidentally milled myself out a few times. It's won a few games through effects like craterhoof or sacrificing 30 creatures while meathook and murkwood are out, but it's a slow deck where you make a compost pile that gets very scary for other people until they realize your fungi can't block. No Deadbridge Chant?
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Dec 13, 2023 17:52
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It was a lot of mana and I got to a point where I'm running out of things to cut without kneecapping myself
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Dec 13, 2023 17:53
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I can't wait until there's enough raccoons to make a trash panda deck. it will be terrible and i will love it.
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Dec 13, 2023 23:23
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Ancient One looks fun for mill or self-mill.
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Dec 15, 2023 07:20
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Gyruda is way more fun, but Ancient One slots nicely in the 99
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Dec 15, 2023 13:48
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Silhouette posted:Gyruda is way more fun, but Ancient One slots nicely in the 99 Big Gyruda stan here
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Dec 15, 2023 15:14
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Batterypowered7 posted:Some sort of ETB-focused deck might be up your alley. Roon, Inalla, Riku, and Yarok come to mind. They all have Blue so you can play the new Virtue, Thassa, Conjurer's Closet, Panharmonicon, etc. Roon has White for Teleportation Circle and Elesh Norn. Roon and Yarok looks real interesting. They kinda look like kill on sight commanders though, since they double the stuff your boardstate does? Zurai posted:You could try Isshin Two Heavens As One "control", which is basically a "let's you and him fight" deck. Lots of goad, "draw if you attack my opponents", "take damage if you attack me" kind of effects, with black card draw and white removal. It plays very differently from a typical EDH deck, very political, but instead of being stax-y, it actually encourages your opponents to swing hard... just not at you. It wins by encouraging your opponents to weaken each other by goading their creatures and making it punishing to attack you, then knocking them out with standard Isshin stuff like Duelist's Heritage and Fervent Charge. You make Isshin sound fun, and describe a playstyle very different from my impression of him from reading the card. Which theme does your deck fit in? Doesn't look like the top themes on EDHrec fits. Im fine with using expensive cards. (I just use proxies for everything, though the price "cap" is fetches for lands and $40ish for other cards)
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Dec 17, 2023 12:48
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Ineptitude posted:You make Isshin sound fun, and describe a playstyle very different from my impression of him from reading the card. Which theme does your deck fit in? Doesn't look like the top themes on EDHrec fits. I honestly don't know that there's an EDHrec theme that quite fits the deck. The closest would be either Pillow Fort or Group Slug, I guess? Though neither are really accurate. If you want to look at my list, it's here. I haven't updated it for Lost Caverns of Ixalan yet, and if you're open to proxies I'm sure there are plenty of tweaks you can make (like adding the shock lands into the mana base).
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Dec 17, 2023 20:28
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i'm curious and cant easily find the answer; what is the florida rude cut
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Dec 17, 2023 22:54
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Ignite Memories posted:i'm curious and cant easily find the answer; what is the florida rude cut Batterypowered7 posted:* slaps the top half of your deck across the table * "We call that the Florida Rude Cut."
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Dec 17, 2023 22:59
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I was wondering about that, too, and if it was similar to the Professor's cut where he just takes the top card of your deck, puts it on the bottom, then shows it to you and says, "That's the card you don't get to have," or something along those lines.
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Dec 17, 2023 23:22
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W.T. Fits posted:I was wondering about that, too, and if it was similar to the Professor's cut where he just takes the top card of your deck, puts it on the bottom, then shows it to you and says, "That's the card you don't get to have," or something along those lines. I call that the "Special Card Cut". Sometimes I also set the top seven cards aside, cut the rest of the deck, put the seven cards back on top, and tell them I picked their starting hand.
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Dec 18, 2023 00:02
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Okay so after trying out the pre-con, I decided to use guides online to upgrade my Veloci-Ramp-Tor deck. Here's the Pre-Con list: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/JYmnf92gJkac_I7WCBBTVA Here's my upgraded decklist: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/twMvM0N1XkWoFdJqWB2tCw In the Considering list below the decklist has cards I could potentially (and some I really want to) add. If you have any idea on some one-to-one swaps, I'd appreciate it. One more thing I'd like to do: I want to cut three to four land to make room for other spells. Would going from 39 land to 35-36 be okay? I have dork and rocks along with a handful of spells to grab lands. Mainly think of replacing them with protection spells and additional land/mana helpers like Exploration and Jurassic Park. Waffleopolis fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 04:11
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What's with Monster Manual jumping to ~$11? Did it do some work on Game Knights or something?
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Dec 24, 2023 23:23
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:What's with Monster Manual jumping to ~$11? Did it do some work on Game Knights or something? Hasn't shown up on Game Knights or Extra Turns that I can recall off-hand, but it was one of their recommended upgrades for the Ixalan Dinosaur precon, since it's a way to cheat a creature into play on an opponent's turn to get a Pantlaza trigger.
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Dec 25, 2023 00:06
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Waffleopolis posted:In the Considering list below the decklist has cards I could potentially (and some I really want to) add. If you have any idea on some one-to-one swaps, I'd appreciate it. Throw in that Godzilla for fun, and maybe consider Polyraptor. I’m also using that Huatli you’re considering.
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Dec 26, 2023 03:17
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