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Mette Frederiksen should be impeached and charged with treason.
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Dec 20, 2023 12:17
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SplitSoul posted:Mette Frederiksen should be impeached and charged with treason. V. Illych L. posted:and an argument that copenhagen was strictly separate from any danish national polity that may have existed because of the language spoken in its institutions and germanophilia of much of its elite. the latter case is imo the most interesting here, but it needs a lot of work before it can do what you want it to do. V. Illych L. posted:my position is that while denmark-norway started out as a coalition between danish and norwegian nobility, the danes got the upper hand fairly quickly, to the point of abolishing or subjugating norwegian-leaning institutions such as the catholic church and placing danish nobles in charge of major norwegian governmental positions (båhus, akershus and bergenhus in particular). this culminated in a situation where norway was officially a province "like any other" under the danish crown. while this integration never fully worked out for various reasons and the norwegian territories in practice had greater autonomy than e.g. fyn, it in my view is quite incompatible with denmark-norway being constitutionally a partnership between equals and therefore means that historical culpability for danish-norwegian policies rest to a greater degree in copenhagen than in e.g. bergen or christiania, and thus to a greater degree in denmark than in norway.
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Dec 20, 2023 12:54
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from the mountains to the fjords, norway will not be yours
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Dec 20, 2023 18:43
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Literally the reason given for voting against it was "But it doesn't condemn Hamas". Our politicians are dogs.
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Dec 20, 2023 21:32
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The social-democrats just can't stop themselves, they have to do it. https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincens_Lunge https://nbl.snl.no/Hartvig_Krummedike https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Pontoppidan off the top of my head. if you can find cases of norwegian transplants ending up as major danish statesmen on a regular basis you have a case here, but i can't think of any - tordenskiold, i guess? e. to supplement, check the list of stattholders of norway and look where they're born: https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stattholdere_i_Norge A Buttery Pastry posted:The equality is in the territory and people of Denmark and Norway being ruled by the same people, who did not see a meaningful difference in how they should approach them. Hence trying to limit Norwegian autonomy. Our modern conception of nations, at least as much a product of our nation states as those states were the product of our nations, is not particularly relevant to a period where legitimacy flowed entirely from somewhere else. ok then neither modern denmark nor modern norway is culpable at all for the crimes of the triangular trade etc - if this holds and there is no institutional connection between the danish state of today and the monarchical state pre-1814 (and similarly, if there is no meaningful continuity of the norwegian national polity until national-romanticism). this does not seem to follow from your previous statements on the subject, however. V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Dec 21, 2023 |
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Dec 21, 2023 00:11
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Inferior Third Season posted:The prime minister demonstrating her comprehensive knowledge of history: 
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Dec 21, 2023 07:10
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Løkke is very obviously banking on getting another freebie as prime minister when the current one is ousted. No one likes Frederiksen, and her lust for power at all costs, even destroying one half of our bloc system in the progress, is playing right into Løkke's fat-fingered hands. I'm not sure we can recover from this, not that we had much ground to begin with.
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Dec 21, 2023 09:33
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V. Illych L. posted:ok then neither modern denmark nor modern norway is culpable at all for the crimes of the triangular trade etc I agree, but we also need to acknowledge that both Denmark and to a lesser extent Norway have benefited from slavery. How much or little that helped to build two wealthy nations is up for debate, but the negative effects it had to the gold coast is unquestionable That the Portugese, British and Dutch were worse isn't an argument
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Dec 21, 2023 10:48
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DR made the "mistake" of giving viewers the false impression that a Palestinian mosque had its muezzin shout "Slaughter the Jews". Just a little whoopsie, no biggie, haha. https://politiken.dk/kultur/medier/...etter-de-fejlen quote:Indslaget fra Israel blev bragt i TV Avisen 18. december. Her talte DR’s udsendte journalist Steen Nørskov med Rami Cohn, der er dansk-israelsk og far til en soldat i den israelske hær. På et tidspunkt i indslaget står de på Rami Cohns tag og har følgende samtale om et bønnekald fra en muezzin (udråberen) i nærheden, der kalder muslimer til bøn.
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Dec 21, 2023 13:15
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V. Illych L. posted:ok then neither modern denmark nor modern norway is culpable at all for the crimes of the triangular trade etc - if this holds and there is no institutional connection between the danish state of today and the monarchical state pre-1814 (and similarly, if there is no meaningful continuity of the norwegian national polity until national-romanticism). this does not seem to follow from your previous statements on the subject, however. SplitSoul posted:DR made the "mistake" of giving viewers the false impression that a Palestinian mosque had its muezzin shout "Slaughter the Jews". Just a little whoopsie, no biggie, haha.
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Dec 21, 2023 15:32
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A Buttery Pastry posted:We accepted the sins of empire as our own when we took over the institutions that perpetrated them, in the kind of respectful and moderate manner in which we did it. Had we executed every monarch and noble, every (beneficiary) descendant of slavers, we could argue that those sins were not ours - but we did not. It seems to me you're setting up an impossible situation where we could either go limp and die out (not something humans have a habit of doing, otherwise we wouldn't be here - so I don't really consider it an option), or commit more atrocities which in no way absolve us of the atrocities we already committed. That's Hobson's choice, and just perpetuates a circle of violence.
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Dec 21, 2023 16:28
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:I'm curious about this part, because I find it difficult to square. Why are those the two only choices?
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Dec 21, 2023 22:10
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A Buttery Pastry posted:There is an institutional connection between the states though. The fact that the vast vast majority of Norwegians and Danes had no say in how the state was run for centuries, does not change the fact that both states evolved into our modern nation states during the long 19th century. We accepted the sins of empire as our own when we took over the institutions that perpetrated them, in the kind of respectful and moderate manner in which we did it. Had we executed every monarch and noble, every (beneficiary) descendant of slavers, we could argue that those sins were not ours - but we did not. ok, so there is some institutional connection between the modern states and the periods we've been discussing, including both absolutism and the earlier elective monarchy. then my point about the relative marginalisation of norway is valid, and so is the existence of a whole wing of the norwegian national project which is explicitly anti-danish to the point of making a whole different dictionary and grammar to de-danicise the new norwegian nation.
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Dec 21, 2023 23:22
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Anders posted:Why are those the two only choices?
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Dec 21, 2023 23:47
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V. Illych L. posted:ok, so there is some institutional connection between the modern states and the periods we've been discussing, including both absolutism and the earlier elective monarchy. then my point about the relative marginalisation of norway is valid, and so is the existence of a whole wing of the norwegian national project which is explicitly anti-danish to the point of making a whole different dictionary and grammar to de-danicise the new norwegian nation.
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Dec 22, 2023 14:56
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"Jeg tror ikke, at der er en tilfældighed i Hamas' angreb på Israel. Hamas arbejder ikke på egen hånd. De er finansieret og støttet af andre kræfter, ikke mindst Iran, som har en tæt sammenhæng med Rusland." - Statsministeren
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Dec 22, 2023 19:02
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every conflict is now a part of the russia-ukraine cinematic universe
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Dec 22, 2023 19:18
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Megamissen posted:every conflict is now a part of the russia-ukraine cinematic universe I wonder if she's aware that literally more than a million Israeli Jews have connections to Russia.
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Dec 22, 2023 19:27
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It's not the most stupid thing she's said about foreign policy the last week. But mostly because she said that American soldiers aren't going to commit horrible crimes
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Dec 22, 2023 19:53
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BonHair posted:It's not the most stupid thing she's said about foreign policy the last week. But mostly because she said that American soldiers aren't going to commit horrible crimes That's fair.
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Dec 22, 2023 19:57
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A Buttery Pastry posted:No. That the states were turned into nation states does not somehow confer a national character backwards in history. I dunno. It's definitely true that it's an often made mistake to project modern nationalism onto the past where such sentiment didn't yet exist, but on the other hand the nationalism was built on things that already existed. Nationalism as a phenomenon in 1800s Europe is historically often referred to as an 'awakening', meaning it is recognising things that are in common to a population that should be the basis for a political entity. As such I don't think there's a clean break between the political entities before nationalism and after, it's more like a political development and a process that's probably still going on.
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Dec 23, 2023 09:27
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Grimnarsson posted:I dunno. It's definitely true that it's an often made mistake to project modern nationalism onto the past where such sentiment didn't yet exist, but on the other hand the nationalism was built on things that already existed. Nationalism as a phenomenon in 1800s Europe is historically often referred to as an 'awakening', meaning it is recognising things that are in common to a population that should be the basis for a political entity. As such I don't think there's a clean break between the political entities before nationalism and after, it's more like a political development and a process that's probably still going on.
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Dec 23, 2023 10:01
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A Buttery Pastry posted:But Denmark only controlled Norway for the first decade or so of the 19th century. This period of national awakening largely happened while Norway was controlled by the Swedish state, and appears to then have been projected back into the past in the emerging national conscious. Not that this projection is unique to Norway. Like, it hardly makes sense to think of Danish rule over Norway as Danish national rule, when the courtly language was French and the language of commerce was German. As I mentioned earlier, the first real inkling of a proto-awakening in Denmark is the Struensee debacle, and the outcome of that was not nationalism, but patriotism: Struensee wasn't seen as bad because he was German, but because he came from outside the territories of the Danish empire. That's only about 40 years before Denmark and Norway parted ways. It was more of a commetn about nationalism(s) in general, I'm definitely not equipped to get in to the weeds about any particular nationalism. In as much as nationalism of any particular kind is a continuation, formalisation etc, of an identity, language, culture, region etc, a big exception I'd say is the Greek one where they skipped the thousand years of Roman identity and went back to Hellenism.
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Dec 23, 2023 13:07
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https://da.se/2023/12/teslas-avtal-om-munkavle-har-redan-drabbat-anstalld-inkallad-till-hr-avdelningen/quote:En anställd ska redan ha kallats in till Teslas HR-chef för hans fru skrivit om företaget på plattformen X.
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Dec 23, 2023 14:56
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I opened my local newspaper on a machine without adblock and got ads from equinor about how fossil fuels aren't that bad. Sure do love privatization.
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Dec 23, 2023 19:43
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Why would you disable your antivirus?
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Dec 23, 2023 20:28
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There is a reason Norway celebrates Constitution Day on 17th of May and freedom from Denmark rather than Independence Day June 7th from Sweden Norway was de facto province of Denmark post 1660, and in a personal Union with Sweden
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Dec 23, 2023 21:55
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Anders posted:There is a reason Norway celebrates Constitution Day on 17th of May and freedom from Denmark rather than Independence Day June 7th from Sweden
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Dec 23, 2023 22:33
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The rich and the powerful loved Denmark. I don't know for sure how popular Norwegian nationalism was with the common man, but considering the enduring legacy I don't think one can discount it.
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Dec 23, 2023 23:02
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it’s a sort of poetic irony in how a Dane think they understand Norwegian identity and conditions under Denmark’s rule, and the following independence movement and national romanticism better than Norwegians 
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Dec 24, 2023 00:24
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Since it's officially christmas eve God Jul! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okmVzTKvLc0
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Dec 24, 2023 00:30
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ulvir posted:it’s a sort of poetic irony in how a Dane think they understand Norwegian identity and conditions under Denmark’s rule, and the following independence movement and national romanticism better than Norwegians
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Dec 24, 2023 06:56
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The narrative put forward relies on a Norwegian understanding of identity and conditions across the realm ruled from Copenhagen though. That the people of Norway were mistreated is not what's up for debate, it's whether they were especially mistreated, to the point that they fall squarely in the victim box and should not reflect on their role in the Triangular Trade and the institution of slavery in Denmark-Norway. As opposed to the people of Norway being both victims of various kinds of lovely monarchies, as well as willing participants in the imperial crimes of those lovely monarchies, to varying degrees depending on the person/class. Just accept that you are bad guys imo. As a scanian I take no responsibilty for swedish atrocities, though.
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Dec 24, 2023 08:00
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Like grid pizza
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Dec 24, 2023 08:06
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Fox Cunning posted:Just accept that you are bad guys imo. As a scanian I take no responsibilty for swedish atrocities, though.
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Dec 24, 2023 11:18
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we do accept blame wrt slavery, maybe not collectively among the public, but legally and academically https://www.norgeshistorie.no/grunnlov-og-ny-union/1322-Slaveri-hjemme-og-ute.html a couple of choice excerpts: «(…)I fem år forpaktet en storkjøpmann fra Bergen, Jørgen Thor Møhlen, slavetrafikken.(…)» «Slaveeierne hadde rett til å straffe slavene. Domstolene på øyene dømte slavene til de frykteligste straffer for forsøk på opprør. En av dommerne var den norske juristen Engebret Hesselberg, som i 1759 tok i bruk tortur som radbrekking og henging etter foten for å få fram tilståelser.»
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Dec 24, 2023 12:59
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sure, businesses participated indirectly by power of the union since Denmark also shipped goods and raw materials up here as well, but there’s nothing to indicate that Norway wouldn’t willingly participate in slavery if we were independent at the time.
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Dec 24, 2023 13:09
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https://twitter.com/t0ebias/status/1738471982306304087?s=46&t=G1x8XWIwrNxUQoXItlkh2w
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Dec 24, 2023 13:21
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Responsibility is not lessened by sharing it with the Norwegians, I just want them to accept they are bad guys too. this is not what we've been arguing about. if these were the stakes, there would be no disagreement since i've explicitly accepted that it's reasonable to apportion some degree of blame to the sovereign norwegian state here. the stakes of this discussion is the relationship of the union to the national states and projects of denmark and norway, specifically your initial assertion that: quote:Norway was just as complicit as Denmark in our colonialism and slavery. Hell, "Danish" slavery in the Caribbean was started by a Norwegian merchant from Bergen, even if it was obviously at the behest of the Danish king. The Kingdom of Denmark-Norway was a partnership between (upper-class) equals, which explains why the Norwegian upper class immediately attempted to rejoin Denmark at the end of the Napoleonic wars. which, as i have imo demonstrated, is highly ahistorical. it also stirs in me recollections of my personal and ideological contempt for a certain kind of narrow-minded danish bourgeois chauvunism. it brings me a certain visceral joy to contradict this attitude, and so i keep posting about it. it also doesn't work unless you subscribe to a highly convoluted and probably untenable theory of nationality: as far as i can tell, such guilt is inherited through institutions which both sprang from the Royal government. this government had no national character, because the national projects of both denmark and norway emerged ex nihilo during the 19th century, after the dissolution of the union (whence comes this idea of 'norway' in 1814? one must marvel at the originality exhibited at eidsvoll!). however, the institutions carry such blame regardless of actual ideology or policy, and cannot be expunged through either political action or institutional reform and drift; the content of the political project is not relevant, because the institutional legacy is immutable and eternal. any influence goes strictly from the bureaucracy to the national project and cannot go the other way around. iirc the empirical facts that have been mobilised to support these rather radical claims is the existence of a cadre of olaf ryes and the participation of norwegian merchant capital in the slave trade. this latter is undoubtedly true and that remains a topic of intermittent discussion and controversy in norway - by my own theory of nationalities, by which some form of more-or-less identifiable norwegian polity has existed since the middle ages, norwegian blame for slavery stems from this participation in a fairly straightforward way, and the institutions descending from and built by this merchant capital carry most of the stains of it. this serves to justify "[norwegians must] accept that they are bad guys too", but not that "Norway was just as complicit as Denmark in our colonialism and slavery.", which is a dramatically stronger statement and is most intuitively supported by an incorrect view of the character of the state of denmark-norway - incidentally, an incorrect view which goes a long way to justifying a modern danish national-chauvinist view of the period. V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Dec 27, 2023 |
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Dec 27, 2023 19:41
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Precisely, it's like claiming Ireland is as complicit in the British slave trade because some merchants (mostly with English heritage or born English - comparable to Norway) engaged in the slave trade Norway was only a part of the Union because the kingdom was in debt to England and Denmark offered to buy it out in return for access to natural resources It's not like Norway didn't benefit at all (the Danish bureaucracy gave the foundation for a society with low corruption), but Denmark benefited more from the union
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Dec 29, 2023 12:34
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