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IMO evading 10.5 tacklers on a kick return is a very different skillset than cutting a route and finding a gap between the corner and safety.
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Dec 28, 2023 20:54
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SKULL.GIF posted:IMO evading 10.5 tacklers on a kick return is a very different skillset than cutting a route and finding a gap between the corner and safety. It's not. That's called agility and speed. Many, many WRs, RBs, and DBs possess that and would probably be better than Hester or Cribbs or any of them but they're too valuable to waste there.
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Dec 28, 2023 20:56
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Doltos posted:It's not. That's called agility and speed. Many, many WRs, RBs, and DBs possess that and would probably be better than Hester or Cribbs or any of them but they're too valuable to waste there. While I agree, I do think doing something that either no one else has done or only a few other players all time have done, should get you into the Hall. In Hester's case it'd be the superbowl kick return. I also think any RB who rushes for 2,000 yards should be in the hall.
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Dec 28, 2023 20:59
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No defensive back should be in the hall of fame, because they're just wide receivers who couldn't catch
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Dec 28, 2023 21:00
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you're gonna sit there and tell me randy moss wouldn't be the greatest corner to ever play the position? get all these schmucks out of here. only the best in the hall
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Dec 28, 2023 21:01
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Doltos posted:The Basketball Hall of Fame is what people want the NFL HOF to turn into because then all their favorite players who were pretty good get the award and then they feel good. That's not the NFL HOF. You have to be literally the best. A returner who didn't even play offense is not that. He could have been fungible with any other skill position and the fact that no one wastes their best players on returning is a testament to how meh Hester career was. Do you remember the Devin Hester as a WR experiment, lmao
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Dec 28, 2023 21:03
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there are only 3 positions in my new, superior hall of fame: fast and agile (wrs/rbs), strong and tough (linemen), intelligent and precise (qb/kickers), all other positions are populated by strictly inferior players and will not be counted
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Dec 28, 2023 21:04
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Ok I actually downloaded and crunched all the numbers. There are 39 people who are on the pro football stats page that have both kickoff and punt returns for touchdown. Top all time yards per punt return: pre:Player punt Rt Yds ret yds/punt Billy Johnson 282 3317 11.76241135 Devin Hester 315 3695 11.73015873 Mel Gray 252 2753 10.92460317 Brian Mitchell 463 4999 10.79697624 Jo-Jo Townsell 127 1360 10.70866142 Josh Cribbs 222 2375 10.6981982 Dave Meggett 349 3708 10.62464183 Dante Hall 216 2261 10.46759259 Deion Sanders+ 212 2199 10.37264151 Jakeem Grant 119 1228 10.31932773 pre:Player punt Rt tds tds/punt ret Devin Hester 315 14 0.044444444 Jakeem Grant 119 4 0.033613445 Jamal Agnew 124 4 0.032258065 Leodis McKelvin 99 3 0.03030303 Eddie Drummond 140 4 0.028571429 Eric Metcalf 351 10 0.028490028 Deion Sanders+ 212 6 0.028301887 Dante Hall 216 6 0.027777778 Darren Sproles 311 7 0.022508039 Clarence Verdin 178 4 0.02247191 pre:Player ko Rt Yds yds/ko ret Abe Woodson 193 5538 28.69430052 Jacoby Jones 183 4940 26.99453552 Josh Cribbs 426 11113 26.08685446 Leodis McKelvin 95 2471 26.01052632 Andre Roberts 260 6751 25.96538462 Dwayne Harris 163 4204 25.79141104 Jamal Agnew 122 3112 25.50819672 Ron Smith 275 6922 25.17090909 Darren Sproles 332 8352 25.15662651 Devin Hester 295 7333 24.85762712 pre:Player ko Rt tds tds/ko ret Jacoby Jones 183 5 0.027322404 Abe Woodson 193 5 0.025906736 Steve Smith Sr. 98 2 0.020408163 Deion Sanders+ 155 3 0.019354839 Josh Cribbs 426 8 0.018779343 Jakeem Grant 110 2 0.018181818 Tamarick Vanover 226 4 0.017699115 Devin Hester 295 5 0.016949153 Jamal Agnew 122 2 0.016393443 Billy Johnson 123 2 0.016260163 pre:Player tot Rt Yds total yds/ret Josh Cribbs 648 13488 20.81481481 Abe Woodson 316 6494 20.55063291 Mel Gray 673 13003 19.32095097 Dante Hall 642 12397 19.30996885 Tyrone Hughes 445 8410 18.8988764 Reggie Swinton 340 6230 18.32352941 Allen Rossum 821 15003 18.27405603 Eddie Drummond 390 7091 18.18205128 Devin Hester 610 11028 18.07868852 Andre Roberts 479 8631 18.01878914 pre:Player tot Rt tds total tds/ret Devin Hester 610 19 0.031147541 Jakeem Grant 229 6 0.026200873 Deion Sanders+ 367 9 0.024523161 Jamal Agnew 246 6 0.024390244 Abe Woodson 316 7 0.022151899 Steve Smith Sr. 278 6 0.021582734 Leodis McKelvin 194 4 0.020618557 Billy Johnson 405 8 0.019753086 Jacoby Jones 459 9 0.019607843 Eric Metcalf 631 12 0.019017433 pre:Player total points Devin Hester 203 Jamal Agnew 189 Jakeem Grant 180 Leodis McKelvin 180 Josh Cribbs 176 Dante Hall 171 Abe Woodson 167 Tamarick Vanover 154 Deion Sanders+ 153 Billy Johnson 152 Mel Gray 149
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Dec 28, 2023 21:04
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Yeah, it's purely agility and speed, nothing else. That's why Trent Richardson was one of the best RBs of all time.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:04
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Nodoze posted:Do you remember the Devin Hester as a WR experiment, lmao Exactly.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:05
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Are we really using counting stats against a guy in the same breadth as mentioning that every team avoided giving him the ball to rack up said counting stats? I think those teams were afraid of the TD success rate he had (14) and hall of very good should count extra for a special teamer imo
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Dec 28, 2023 21:05
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Sunday Morning posted:Classic Doltos sweet thursday posted:Put him in the Hall Ehhhh, I don't know. Do we really think Doltos is on the level of someone like Kawalimus or Cavauro? Seems more like a hall of very good poster than a HoF one imo.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:07
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When I include overall rankings and not just per-category, the gulf gets wider:pre:Player Overall Total Devin Hester 508.5 Josh Cribbs 460.5 Dante Hall 459.5 Brian Mitchell 447.5 Mel Gray 433 Darren Sproles 407 Allen Rossum 388 Jacoby Jones 381 Eric Metcalf 371.5 Tamarick Vanover 370
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Dec 28, 2023 21:09
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I hate agreeing with Daltos but he is right on this one
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Dec 28, 2023 21:10
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Obviously some positions are less valuable than others, but in any sport, if you are the best at your position then you deserve in the hall. I think Hester qualifies as such.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:10
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Nervous posted:Ehhhh, I don't know. Do we really think Doltos is on the level of someone like Kawalimus or Cavauro? Seems more like a hall of very good poster than a HoF one imo. They hate me because I'm the only rational person on these forums instead of falling for stats and narratives
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Dec 28, 2023 21:10
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We should keep Gronkowski out of the hall because of that one time he played safety and got completely embarrassed.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:10
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Flikken posted:Man I really want to agree that Cribbs belongs in the hall but he is borderline at best. His extremely high counting stats are probably a result of just how godawful the Browns were for his tenure. Lots of teams scored a lot on the Browns so he had lots of oppurtunities to return kicks. Cribbs was just a weird freakish athlete good at everything other than normal football. Like he sucked at being a receiver, running back, or quarterback, but was good to elite at running gadget/trick plays and wildcat. He's one of the few people I remember actually not hating throwing WR screens to because you just needed to find ways to actually get the ball in his hands. As you said he also was also very good in kick/punt coverage and everyone knows he was elite in kick returns and well above average in punt returns. I guess his biggest counting stat would be KR TDs and all purpose yards but being 2nd in KR TDs and 31st in all purpose yards isn't that impressive. He did manage to lead the league in APY once and came in second by just 6 yards another. The one he came in second is 6th all time, unfortunately Fred Jackson had the 5th best all time the same year. Cribbs belongs in the hall of "weird freakish athletes nobody could find a consistent use for on offense but was fun to watch". I guess the argument for Cribbs is similar to Hester in that he was uniquely talented at returns and certainly a top 10 return man all time, but I don't really know if that is enough unless we start letting in a lot of specialists. Hester is a step above Cribbs in that regards because Cribbs definitely has peers in the same tier as him at kick return, while Hester seemed a tier above everyone else all time at punt return.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:10
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Master Stur posted:Are we really using counting stats against a guy in the same breadth as mentioning that every team avoided giving him the ball to rack up said counting stats? I think those teams were afraid of the TD success rate he had (14) and hall of very good should count extra for a special teamer imo His counting stats put him over the top when you properly contextualize them. He's head and shoulders above any contemporary as a whole, and his punt return game is untouchable. He only doesn't have more yards per return because he housed so many.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:11
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Doltos posted:They hate me because I'm the only rational person on these forums instead of falling for stats and narratives you were literally using stats to say why he didn't deserve it like two posts ago
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Dec 28, 2023 21:12
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seiferguy posted:Obviously some positions are less valuable than others, but in any sport, if you are the best at your position then you deserve in the hall. I think Hester qualifies as such. If that's true Steve Tasker would be in.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:12
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Doltos posted:They hate me because I'm the only rational person on these forums instead of falling for stats and narratives You tried to cite counting stats as a reason to keep Hester out.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:12
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Doltos posted:They hate me because I'm the only rational person on these forums instead of falling for stats and narratives Doltos posted:Are you kidding me
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Dec 28, 2023 21:13
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Mr. Nice! posted:His counting stats put him over the top when you properly contextualize them. He's head and shoulders above any contemporary as a whole, and his punt return game is untouchable. He only doesn't have more yards per return because he housed so many. I agree with you but in my phone posting took too long to type that out before your post. You put to words what I wish I had the ability to articulate better. He warped the game because of his high rate of housing it so it's natural is raw yardage isn't special.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:14
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I also took the source material for the stats and showed that they support hester above everyone else. Just ranking by total yards doesn't contextualize the actual performance. You have to look at how many returns they had and what they did on every one. Doing so shows Hester is a clear head and shoulders above the rest of the pack. No one else is even close.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:14
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The Hall of Him
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Dec 28, 2023 21:15
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Nervous posted:Ehhhh, I don't know. Do we really think Doltos is on the level of someone like Kawalimus or Cavauro? Seems more like a hall of very good poster than a HoF one imo.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:15
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sweet thursday posted:The Hall of Him Bam Margeras ears perk up.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:15
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The arrogance is really something else, isn't it? I'm still waiting to hear how "it's just speed and agility" explains why all 32 teams don't just put the fastest sprinter they can find out at returner. There's plenty of really fast men who can't catch a ball. Why don't NFL teams maximize every advantage they can get? Are they stupid?
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Dec 28, 2023 21:16
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wilderthanmild posted:Cribbs was just a weird freakish athlete good at everything other than normal football. Like he sucked at being a receiver, running back, or quarterback, but was good to elite at running gadget/trick plays and wildcat. He's one of the few people I remember actually not hating throwing WR screens to because you just needed to find ways to actually get the ball in his hands. As you said he also was also very good in kick/punt coverage and everyone knows he was elite in kick returns and well above average in punt returns. I guess his biggest counting stat would be KR TDs and all purpose yards but being 2nd in KR TDs and 31st in all purpose yards isn't that impressive. He did manage to lead the league in APY once and came in second by just 6 yards another. The one he came in second is 6th all time, unfortunately Fred Jackson had the 5th best all time the same year. Would love to have him in this offense doing those direct snaps Stefanski loves so much.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:16
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Ville Valo has a new gig
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Dec 28, 2023 21:17
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seiferguy posted:Obviously some positions are less valuable than others, but in any sport, if you are the best at your position then you deserve in the hall. I think Hester qualifies as such. and on this note, punters are criminally ignored by the hall if Hester gets in, we need some punters in there too. the yin to the yang. Ray Guy changed the punt game but he was mediocre compared to current-day punters. Sam Koch for HoF
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Dec 28, 2023 21:17
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N: https://x.com/rapsheet/status/1740466941901652316?s=46&t=OK6AvWM-NBtlIQDYnQH66w v: 
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Dec 28, 2023 21:18
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Acebuckeye13 posted:you were literally using stats to say why he didn't deserve it like two posts ago I'm allowed to do it
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Dec 28, 2023 21:20
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The Hall should have only 10 spots at each position and each year the Elders gather to decide who should be elevated and who removed to make way for the Ascended. There will be hall of famers and former hall of famers. Big ceremony where they melt down the old guy's bust and recast it into the visage of the new. ONLY THE BEST.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:22
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Flikken posted:Would love to have him in this offense doing those direct snaps Stefanski loves so much. He would definitely take a direct snap while in motion then pass the ball downfield for a first down or TD at least once and it would rule. That 2020 season where there were tons of trick plays I remember thinking Cribbs would be really fun to watch in that offense.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:26
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sirtommygunn posted:We should keep Gronkowski out of the hall because of that one time he played safety and got completely embarrassed. It makes sense why mahomes was crying about kelce not getting in, now.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:26
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if PR/KR is a position for the Pro-Bowl/All-pro teams. It should count as a position for hall of fame consideration imo. So yeah, I'm fine with like Hester, and like Patterson even to get in there.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:27
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Fat Jesus posted:The Hall should have only 10 spots at each position and each year the Elders gather to decide who should be elevated and who removed to make way for the Ascended. There will be hall of famers and former hall of famers. Big ceremony where they melt down the old guy's bust and recast it into the visage of the new. ONLY THE BEST. sounds like a TFF offseason project, but top 8? we do a tourney style voting bracket to see who survives to the quarterfinals
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Dec 28, 2023 21:28
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If you can put a game plan in the hall for its influence or impact in a Super Bowl you should put Hester in for housing one on the opening return. Also put the Saints onside kick in. Yes I know the bears lost anyways but it's the bears let them have this one.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:29
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