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mellonbread posted:Roll a D12 and a D2. If the D2 comes up 2, add 12 to the D12. yeah, i played a one shot of DCC and all the weird rear end dice can be done like that with a little thought.
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Dec 29, 2023 02:27
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Silver2195 posted:Not sure this is the right thread for this, but: I remember "Death to ability scores!" being a common catchphrase here at one point. What I find odd about it is that I can't actually think of any tabletop RPGs (aside from maybe some ultra-rules-lite ones) that don't have ability scores. I can think of a few systems that superficially don't have them, but actually have them in disguise. What are these ability-score-less systems that people were calling for D&D to imitate? I could be misremembering but it was more about moving away from a score that meant nothing other than what tier bonus you got to just explicitly listing the bonus. Like, no more 18 constitution that gives you a +3 just say you have a +3 constitution since it's the same thing.
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Dec 29, 2023 02:33
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Silver2195 posted:Not sure this is the right thread for this, but: I remember "Death to ability scores!" being a common catchphrase here at one point. What I find odd about it is that I can't actually think of any tabletop RPGs (aside from maybe some ultra-rules-lite ones) that don't have ability scores. I can think of a few systems that superficially don't have them, but actually have them in disguise. What are these ability-score-less systems that people were calling for D&D to imitate? Both LANCER and Strike! RPG are heavily 4e inspired and don't have anything that comes with nearly half the baggage of the big six. Blades in the Dark also does it so very differently that I would struggle to call insight prowess and resolve ability scores in the d&d sense.
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Dec 29, 2023 02:37
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Silver2195 posted:Not sure this is the right thread for this, but: I remember "Death to ability scores!" being a common catchphrase here at one point. What I find odd about it is that I can't actually think of any tabletop RPGs (aside from maybe some ultra-rules-lite ones) that don't have ability scores. I can think of a few systems that superficially don't have them, but actually have them in disguise. What are these ability-score-less systems that people were calling for D&D to imitate? Plenty of games have 'skills' but not ability scores. Fate, anything BitD, the upcoming Icon, Risus, etc The problem is specifically that ability scores in DnDesque games are a non-choices because there are always some that are optimal for your build and therefore they also restrict your skill choices (e.g. a Fighter is not going to have a reason to boost Cha high enough to be good at Persuasion, for example, while still being an optimal fighter). If you want to conceptualise what this looks like in play just imagine any given DnD edition but every PC's scores are 18 or 20 across the board.
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Dec 29, 2023 02:59
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Griddle of Love posted:Both LANCER and Strike! RPG are heavily 4e inspired and don't have anything that comes with nearly half the baggage of the big six. Blades in the Dark also does it so very differently that I would struggle to call insight prowess and resolve ability scores in the d&d sense. I guess you could argue that BitD has "saves" rather than "ability scores," and they're derived from skills instead of the other way around. But they're still broad categories of competence tied to skills. I admit I'm not very familiar with the rules of LANCER and Strike! Come to think of it, I guess FATE doesn't have ability scores, although I don't often see FATE held up as a model to be emulated. Edit: There's also some games that have "skills" but not "ability scores," though the fewer skills you have, the more they resemble ability scores (and the more skills you have, the more complex character creation becomes). I think FATE dodges this dilemma by leaving skill lists up to the GM instead of having a fixed list. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Dec 29, 2023 |
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Dec 29, 2023 03:04
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It really just depends on the kind of game you're designing, there's perfectly valid reasons to have Attributes/Ability Scores, though obviously D&D's implementation of them have been contentious at best (lugging around old baggage from a half-century old offshoot of a miniatures wargame will do that). In some games there's literally no reason to measure broad traits like that if everything can be defined easily using skills, like Blades in the Dark, and "attributes" are just saving throws to encourage a degree of versatility in skill builds. LANCER also does not have ability scores per se, the closest equivalent are the pilot mech skills for giving common bonuses to all of the mechs in a pilot's stable, modifying their Hull, Agility, Systems, and Engineering by a set amount. All of those modify base capabilities which are fully determined by the mech's own stats. As a LANCER mech is functionally like a Job Class in a Final Fantasy sort of sense, this basically obviates the need for broader tracking of a pilot's Strength, Dexterity, etc. For everything a pilot might do out of combat, those are tracked by a pretty hand-wavey wibbly wobbly skill system but the mechanical rigor of LANCER's gameplay loop is like 98% combat, and 2% noncombat. There's a reason ICON, the fantasy followup to LANCER, straight up bolts FitD to their signature post-D&D4e LANCER-style combat. Amusingly, in Fragged Empire and its spinoffs, Attributes are extremely important stats for combat but have very limited applicability to Skills (which govern both conventional Skill checks as well as the Acquisition rolls that affect the better portion of your character progression), and both Attributes and Skills are treated pretty importantly because the balance of the gameplay loop is a lot more balanced and both have clearly defined niches in the system.
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Dec 29, 2023 03:19
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As a matter of genre emulation, I would expect a mecha RPG to have stats for pilots along the lines of “Reflexes,” “Technical Knowledge,” “Hot-Bloodedness,” and maybe some sort of stat for Newtype/Geass powers. How does LANCER model those things? Edit: I guess the mech pilot skills Runa mentions would cover some of those, although they mostly seem like subsets of technical knowledge. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Dec 29, 2023 |
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Dec 29, 2023 03:30
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ICON, the fantasy follow-up to Lancer, has no attributes. In narrative play you have skills and abilities. In tactical combat, you have zero numerical metrics that are not determined exclusively by your class.
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Dec 29, 2023 03:57
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Ferrinus posted:They're right if you just understand "wizards" as shorthand for "full spellcasters". How does a rogue signify that they're breaking the emergency glass because the situation calls for them to go all-out? Well, by trying to line up and deliver a sneak attack, same as they do every other round. A fighter's at least got their per-short-rest action surge, but they conspicuously don't get a special move or combat stance so outrageously powerful that it'd be ridiculous to let them do it more than once per day. We've both been on this forum long enough for me to know that our perspectives on RPGs are irreconcilable, so I'm not going to argue this with you - feel free to have the last word! I'll just post this for others to ruminate on and investigate in their own play: For the majority of the 5e leveling curve, the "break the glass and go all out" trigger for rogues and fighters is drinking the Good Potions and then obliterating the encounter, plus the aforementioned Action Surge. Consumables and Weird Trick items are meant for those classes, and it's a failing of the (very bad) 5e Player's Handbook and (somewhat less bad) DMG that it doesn't call this out explicitly in big bold capital letters. D&D 5e is a bad system and I am eternally grateful to be free of it at last, but after seven straight years of weekly D&D 5e sessions, hundreds of sessions and around 2,000 hours of play and around that many hours of weekly prep, taking multiple parties from levels 1 to 20, the overwhelmingly dominant combatants in the campaigns I've run have been the rogues and the fighters, and it wasn't even particularly close. Does this have something to do with the players of my rogues and fighters being active, engaged participants who are thinking about what's happening the table, creating advantageous fictional positioning, and using their resources appropriately? Yeah, it does, but that should be the standard around which we design. Does it also have something to do with the mechanics as written, where the level 20 fighter's damage output was so high, durability, and mobility were so extreme that I had to create an entirely separate boss in the final fight just for him so he wouldn't end the fight in two rounds? Yes, that is also true.
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Dec 29, 2023 04:23
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Silver2195 posted:Not sure this is the right thread for this, but: I remember "Death to ability scores!" being a common catchphrase here at one point. What I find odd about it is that I can't actually think of any tabletop RPGs (aside from maybe some ultra-rules-lite ones) that don't have ability scores. I can think of a few systems that superficially don't have them, but actually have them in disguise. What are these ability-score-less systems that people were calling for D&D to imitate? Aside from some already mentioned there are systems that don't have attributes/abilities and instead are more personality/approach rating. Like L5R or Fate Accelerated. You aren't strong or weak, instead you are better at doing things gracefully, explosively/passionately, under pressure, and so on rather than being strong, tough, wise, or agile.
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Dec 29, 2023 04:25
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Kestral posted:For the majority of the 5e leveling curve, the "break the glass and go all out" trigger for rogues and fighters is drinking the Good Potions and then obliterating the encounter, plus the aforementioned Action Surge. Consumables and Weird Trick items are meant for those classes, and it's a failing of the (very bad) 5e Player's Handbook and (somewhat less bad) DMG that it doesn't call this out explicitly in big bold capital letters. Is this even intended, at all? And what's stopping the casters from using those consumables to do the same thing?
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Dec 29, 2023 04:27
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Does the 5e DMG give an expected potions or loot per level system?
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Dec 29, 2023 04:30
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Terrible Opinions posted:Does the 5e DMG give an expected potions or loot per level system? You know it doesn't, that snacks of 4e and thus must be rigorously avoided.
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Dec 29, 2023 04:34
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Is this even intended, at all? And what's stopping the casters from using those consumables to do the same thing? Well the effects of those potions probably synergize better with physical classes, as Potion of Giant Strength or Potion of Growth can be very strong in the hands of a class that gets mileage out of physical attacks, a Potion of Invincibility would be best put on someone tanking damage from the front, and a Potion of Haste's bonus action economy benefit is limited to non-casting actions.
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Dec 29, 2023 04:53
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Terrible Opinions posted:Does the 5e DMG give an expected potions or loot per level system? 5e just... doesn't give information like that and it's real annoying because they're trying really hard to pass the buck to your gm but not giving any guidance or indication that much thought was put into the system.
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Dec 29, 2023 04:59
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yeah that's D&D5e for you
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Dec 29, 2023 05:04
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Silver2195 posted:Not sure this is the right thread for this, but: I remember "Death to ability scores!" being a common catchphrase here at one point. What I find odd about it is that I can't actually think of any tabletop RPGs (aside from maybe some ultra-rules-lite ones) that don't have ability scores. I can think of a few systems that superficially don't have them, but actually have them in disguise. What are these ability-score-less systems that people were calling for D&D to imitate? Over the Edge comes to mind. More recently, FATE. In my opinion, Gumshoe games don’t have ability scores but there’s a decent argument that some of the General skills are the ability scores in disguise you mention.
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Dec 29, 2023 05:24
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Silver2195 posted:Not sure this is the right thread for this, but: I remember "Death to ability scores!" being a common catchphrase here at one point. What I find odd about it is that I can't actually think of any tabletop RPGs (aside from maybe some ultra-rules-lite ones) that don't have ability scores. I can think of a few systems that superficially don't have them, but actually have them in disguise. What are these ability-score-less systems that people were calling for D&D to imitate? Strike! and ICON, I guess, are both close to the D&D-sphere and don't use ability scores at all. Practically speaking, ability scores make sense as a check against excessive multiclassing; 4e is pretty mechanically dense and has a robust multiclassing system to justify ability scores existence, Strike! just doesn't allow it at all, and ICON expects if not outright requires you to go hog-wild with mixing classes and jobs. On the other hand, with 5e you could probably replace just about every instance of "ability modifier" with "proficiency bonus" and the game probably works better for it. Off hand, at minimum you'd make most PCs more consistent in their proficient knowledge skills, reduce the amount of random competency at untrained skills in your good stat, and also solve the problem weak saves never scaling.
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Dec 29, 2023 05:56
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Nessus posted:How tae gently caress do you roll a d24? Asking the computer to do it doesn’t count They do make d24's you know lexxyth posted:The DCC dice sets come with an actual d24, as well as the other unusual dice https://goodman-games.com/store/product-category/dice/ Yeah I think I've got one of those true d100's lying around(think it was part of that big pile of dice I got gifted after most of my original dice collection got stolen back in 2018)
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Dec 29, 2023 06:32
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Ominous Jazz posted:5e just... doesn't give information like that and it's real annoying because they're trying really hard to pass the buck to your gm but not giving any guidance or indication that much thought was put into the system. So it's not intended, and effectively just another case of 'the system is FINE as long as you use my extensive houserules that are unrecognisable to how one would reasonably expect the game to be played based on its actual rules'.
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Dec 29, 2023 06:36
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are you guys getting a bunch of game shops opening up in your dead malls? one near me has a tabletop spot right across from one that only does Japanese card games
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Dec 29, 2023 07:06
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"Death to ability scores" came from the fact that ability scores were actively detrimental to character building in the context of combat and completely redundant with the skills system outside of combat. They should have just had scaling primary, secondary, and maybe tertiary bonus values: attack rolls and damage get +primary, most riders get +secondary, and maybe a few things get +tertiary or just have the power spell out the correct number. Outside of combat, ability scores are a perfectly cromulent system, and so are skills, but you don't need both. You never needed both and having both in the same game just came from the same old school of design that had you rolling on a table to determine what die to roll to set the target for a d20 roll. Whatever the opposite of elegant design is.
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Dec 29, 2023 07:56
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John Romero posted:are you guys getting a bunch of game shops opening up in your dead malls? one near me has a tabletop spot right across from one that only does Japanese card games We had a couple new ones open up in some strip malls, one of them being the second or third location for the owners. I'm in a college town so that may play into things but I take it as an overall good sign.
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Dec 29, 2023 08:05
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EverettLO posted:If you remember, can you post what that was? I am interested. I honestly can't. I think it may have been Game Studies Study Buddies https://rangedtouch.com/game-studies-study-buddies/, but I went searching through their episode records and nothing rings a bell. It may have been on a topic discussing The Forge, but it may not have been. Or a completely different podcast altogether. Sorry for not being more help. 
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Dec 29, 2023 08:17
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Jimbozig posted:"Death to ability scores" came from the fact that ability scores were actively detrimental to character building in the context of combat and completely redundant with the skills system outside of combat. I do kinda think it's somewhat reasonable to differentiate a sort of baseline of potential and the various things a person can know in a system. But I think having both things just kinda constantly go up makes them somewhat redundant. But then i think somewhat simulative aspects of RPGs get short shift on this forum. I think GURPS's voluminous skill list is a really useful way of getting at what a character can and can't do in a greater sense that often more vague, more 'elegant' lists often miss.
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Dec 29, 2023 10:22
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Silver2195 posted:Not sure this is the right thread for this, but: I remember "Death to ability scores!" being a common catchphrase here at one point. What I find odd about it is that I can't actually think of any tabletop RPGs (aside from maybe some ultra-rules-lite ones) that don't have ability scores. I can think of a few systems that superficially don't have them, but actually have them in disguise. What are these ability-score-less systems that people were calling for D&D to imitate? On a phone so I'm just going to paste something I posted in an paper thread: In 5e you pick a <e: heritage now>, a class, a background, and an archetype, <e: and a starting feat now>, that's a huge range of interactions to determine your to-hit, damage, saves, AC, initiative, and very good/good/OK/bad skills. Ability scores actually interfere with this. I've picked a warlock with the academic background and chosen arcana as a proficient skill, why do I also need to put points into intelligence to get my +5 to Know Demon Stuff? I've already picked Know Demon Stuff three times! Other systems or versions of D&D vary. And in some systems ability scores are good! STA uses them very effectively, but it's a classless point buy system built around ability scores/skills/focuses/drives dealies. Splicer fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Dec 29, 2023 |
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Dec 29, 2023 10:45
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Panzeh posted:I do kinda think it's somewhat reasonable to differentiate a sort of baseline of potential and the various things a person can know in a system. But I think having both things just kinda constantly go up makes them somewhat redundant. But then i think somewhat simulative aspects of RPGs get short shift on this forum. Splicer fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Dec 29, 2023 |
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Dec 29, 2023 10:49
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Is this even intended, at all? And what's stopping the casters from using those consumables to do the same thing? They're casting spells instead
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Dec 29, 2023 11:27
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Splicer posted:Same answer. In gurps your character is built entirely from individually purchased abilities. In D&D your character is built from a huge list of assorted package deals. With the way D&D customises your guy, requiring a weird little point buy game at character creation detracts from the advantages of the bits D&D does well. And that is pretty true- if you're dumping people with a package deal anyway, it is kinda weird to have this thing on top of it.
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Dec 29, 2023 11:50
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John Romero posted:are you guys getting a bunch of game shops opening up in your dead malls? one near me has a tabletop spot right across from one that only does Japanese card games Man. I wish. I’d kill for some boutique shops, especially a high end collectibles store. Every used section of every shop is the same 30 game in poo poo condition. Where’s my rare shop?
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Dec 29, 2023 13:03
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John Romero posted:are you guys getting a bunch of game shops opening up in your dead malls? one near me has a tabletop spot right across from one that only does Japanese card games Yeah. We've always had 3 stable ones within a 30 minute drive but have had a few opening over the past few years. At least one was someone who got into reselling during COVID who opened a physical store after receiving an inheritance.
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Dec 29, 2023 17:26
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Silver2195 posted:As a matter of genre emulation, I would expect a mecha RPG to have stats for pilots along the lines of “Reflexes,” “Technical Knowledge,” “Hot-Bloodedness,” and maybe some sort of stat for Newtype/Geass powers. How does LANCER model those things? LANCER isn't a Gundam RPG, it's an Armored Core RPG.
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Dec 29, 2023 17:54
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Panzeh posted:And that is pretty true- if you're dumping people with a package deal anyway, it is kinda weird to have this thing on top of it. I can see this, although I feel like the logical conclusion of this is likely to be reinventing ability scores in the guise of classes or subclasses. (E.g., all Warriors are strong, but they come in six types: Fighters are even stronger, Swashbucklers are also dexterous, Barbarians are also tough, MacGuyvers are also intelligent, Rangers are also wise, and Warlords are also charismatic.) Though maybe that’s a pro rather than a con.
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Dec 29, 2023 17:58
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:LANCER isn't a Gundam RPG, it's an Armored Core RPG. Ah, a mecha game in the sense that it has giant robot fights, not in the sense that it has masked antiheroes and idealistic princesses and so forth. Now I’m wondering if there’s a mecha game that does lean into those kinds of tropes. I assume someone has made one, although most of the mecha RPGs I’m familiar with seem to draw on Evangelion rather than Gundam for some reason (often with rather tasteless results).
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Dec 29, 2023 18:08
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Silver2195 posted:Ah, a mecha game in the sense that it has giant robot fights, not in the sense that it has masked antiheroes and idealistic princesses and so forth. Battle Century G E: actually that's more close to super robot series gaogaigar and getter than real robot series like gundam
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Dec 29, 2023 18:10
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star light brigade
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Dec 29, 2023 18:12
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:LANCER isn't a Gundam RPG, it's an Armored Core RPG. I'd put it closer to like Front Mission. Which was, you know, a grid based mecha strategy rpg
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Dec 29, 2023 18:13
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Plutonis posted:I'd put it closer to like Front Mission. Which was, you know, a grid based mecha strategy rpg Front Mission tech is way too tame to match up with LANCER, and even with the advantage of being a turn-based game the mechs in it aren't nearly mobile enough. also you can literally ask the dev on discord what his influences are lol
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Dec 29, 2023 18:30
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A real Gundam RPG, and I say this with love in my heart for Gundam, would need rules for monologuing someone to death. LANCER is more like a magical girl or other type of Super Sentai RPG, where after Tuxedo Catfish posted:also you can literally ask the dev on discord what his influences are lol I believe it spells it out in the (free) book as well. But the only influence I remember listed is d&d 4e. EDIT: I think I was hallucinating that actually. Maybe it was twitter posts I was thinking of? Griddle of Love fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Dec 29, 2023 |
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Dec 29, 2023 18:32
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Plutonis posted:Battle Century G It's both because BCG is the unofficial Super Robot Wars RPG. It's explicitly designed so that it can mechanically support everything from one end to the other of the real/super robot scale, fighting alongside each other and against enemies from their respective genres. You can also just reflavour everything to only do one of those genres if you really want to. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Dec 29, 2023 |
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Dec 29, 2023 19:38
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