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Woolie Wool posted:LS-120 floppy drive on a near daily basis.
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Dec 31, 2023 14:03
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Pipewire question: I have a 7.1 soundbar/speaker package (LG SP11RA). Because I do not (yet) have a sufficiently long HDMI cable, I have connected it to my PC via S/PDIF optical. I was under the impression that optical could normally carry stereo, and possibly Dolby Digital / DTS (but definitely not 7.1 or Atmos). However, when I look at the S/PDIF output in the audio settings, I have a dropdown with "HD 5.1" and "HD 7.1" options. Though, if I click "Test", both those options only show stereo channels. My question is (1) Do those options mean anything? and (2) Is there anything I can do to get actual DTS? I've got a few DTS media files but they don't seem to play in surround mode. 
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Dec 31, 2023 15:42
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NihilCredo posted:
So in Windows I know that Dolby / DTS output via spdif was only possible if the sound card specifically supported it. Even with an AC3 encoded file there was no way to just force it through, the digital out couldn't be directly accessed like that. So the main Q I'd have is what type of sound card or interface you have. As for what pipewire is showing there, it may be using 5/7.1 mode in the mixer and then down mixing to stereo? That's a thing you can do in Windows, it used to be somewhat useful for games from the early era of surround sound that didn't have internal HRTF support, or relied on EAX. "Fake" 5.1 to stereo gave you more surround than stereo from the game.
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Dec 31, 2023 16:16
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Woolie Wool posted:A bigger case won't get you a bigger motherboard with more slots to put cards in, the days of 7-slot boards are unfortunately long gone and even 5 slot boards are vanishing Nah, you just gotta look in the right places: https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=EPYCD8-2T#Specifications Could make it 9 slots with those OCuLinks, I think.
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Dec 31, 2023 16:49
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Klyith posted:So in Windows I know that Dolby / DTS output via spdif was only possible if the sound card specifically supported it. Even with an AC3 encoded file there was no way to just force it through, the digital out couldn't be directly accessed like that. I always have to gently caress with pavucontrol no matter what, its annoying.
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Dec 31, 2023 17:09
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Klyith posted:So in Windows I know that Dolby / DTS output via spdif was only possible if the sound card specifically supported it. Even with an AC3 encoded file there was no way to just force it through, the digital out couldn't be directly accessed like that. Good point! It's a Realtek ALC4080 chip, and searching reddit it appears that a lot of people have issues with 5.1 and/or optical audio on that particular chip. Fortunately I don't have any of the other, more severe issues reported (stutters, delays, static); unfortunately my motherboard (MSI B650) doesn't have any firmware upgrades available, only windows drivers. And I'm on Fedora Rawhide so I'm *pretty sure* I already have the latest Linux drivers actually. I'll try to find a long enough HDMI cable ASAP, but as an alternative - are there any recommended Linux dedicated sound cards? Might be a chaper option.
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Dec 31, 2023 17:12
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:A lot of newer cases will have two or three daughterboard slots mounted perpendicular to the motherboard but far enough away that you can put a GPU there using a PCIe extention cable, and still have room to add all the full-height daughterboards that the motherboard can fit. That is where the PCI adapter goes, it replaces the bracket and extension cable for a vertical GPU. What would really be oldschool  would be to have that adapter to run legacy IDE and midi cards and also have the TPM to ISA adapter and put in an ISA floppy controller to run a 5.25" floppy drive, but there is probably not a case in the world that can make that work, not to mention there might not be any drivers for the ISA card for any OS more modern than Windows 95 (though I did get Debian to recognize my ISA Sound Blaster AWE64, after some modprobe commands, when I installed it on my Athlon for shits and giggles).Still having a working 5.25" drive on a modern system would be amazing and make working with retro poo poo easier. Download 5.25" disk images off the interwebs and flash them directly to a disk without having to switch computers. As far as I know nobody has come up with a PCIe floppy controller, despite all the  boutique retro cards out there these days.Eletriarnation posted:Nah, you just gotta look in the right places: https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=EPYCD8-2T#Specifications it must be nice to afford epyc for your home rig  mystes posted:Why??? I have an AMD Athlon rig for retro gaming. Floppy disks are by far the most convenient way to get small amounts of data in and out of the DOS side of that rig. CD-Rs are disposable and take way too long to burn (and just as long for DOS to mount), and my network card in that computer has no DOS drivers. Without a floppy drive in my main rig I would have to copy the data to a floppy anyway and keep switching between Windows XP (which has SMB1 connections to my main rig running Linux) and DOS, whereas with the LS-120 drive I can mount a disk and copy the files over in Linux (or dd to /dev/sde if it's an image), and then pop the disk back out and put it into the Athlon, without the Athlon having to go back to Windows (which requires me to power down the machine completely and pull a CF card containing the DOS system out of the back). Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Dec 31, 2023 |
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Dec 31, 2023 18:34
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Woolie Wool posted:Still having a working 5.25" drive on a modern system would be amazing and make working with retro poo poo easier. Download 5.25" disk images off the interwebs and flash them directly to a disk without having to switch computers. 5.25'' slots in a modern case still have a use: USB/SD card/whatever else bays. Yes, maybe for the average person, they don't copy to/from media cards every day, but if you're working with embedded systems that can only boot from such cards, it's extremely convenient. There are ways around it, of course, but why settle for workarounds when you can have a proper thing?
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Dec 31, 2023 18:45
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NihilCredo posted:I'll try to find a long enough HDMI cable ASAP, but as an alternative - are there any recommended Linux dedicated sound cards? Might be a chaper option. Are you limited to digital inputs on the receiver, or do you have analog? I have an old Asus Xonar card that supports AC3/DTS out via digital... But I never really hosed around with that even on windows. I'm a headphones guy. The card was supported in Linux. I have a receiver I could test it with if you're interested, tho it'll be a while as I'm away from home for a while. Now I use a USB DAC/amp, but the super-standard thing for USB audio (UAC1/2) is afaik stereo only. I think all the USB "sound cards" that have 5.1 out are either doing virtual upmixing or have special drivers. Edit: also yeah the Realtek ALC4080 seems to majorly suck, like above and beyond the usual realtek. Klyith fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Dec 31, 2023 |
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Dec 31, 2023 18:50
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Volguus posted:5.25'' slots in a modern case still have a use: USB/SD card/whatever else bays. Yes, maybe for the average person, they don't copy to/from media cards every day, but if you're working with embedded systems that can only boot from such cards, it's extremely convenient. There are ways around it, of course, but why settle for workarounds when you can have a proper thing? Being able to work with 3.5" floppy disks on my modern rig is extremely convenient, and being able to work with 5.25" disks as well would be more convenient. Though having a 5.25" floppy drive would be another thing requiring a bigger case, my case has only two bays, which are occupied by the LS-120 drive (using a bay adapter) and my Blu-Ray drive. For me, using a card reader (which I have as a USB dongle) to work on the DOS CF card directly is the workaround, popping in a disk and typing A:\INSTALL or whatever is the proper thing. Especially since taking out the CF card means powering down the machine (as far as DOS is concerned, that would essentially be ripping out the hard drive since it doesn't have access to the real hard drives on that machine), while using a floppy disk does not. Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Dec 31, 2023 |
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Dec 31, 2023 18:51
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For retro data moving purposes, could you use a compactflash card and a CF to IDE adapter on the old side? Larger and faster than the LS-120 drive, and less likely to develop mechanical issues.
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Dec 31, 2023 19:11
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Computer viking posted:For retro data moving purposes, could you use a compactflash card and a CF to IDE adapter on the old side? Larger and faster than the LS-120 drive, and less likely to develop mechanical issues. This is literally how the DOS side of Athlon boots. The CF card adapter is plugged into primary master and there's an IDE hard drive on primary slave that contains Windows 98 and XP. When I insert the CF card the Windows boot loader is pre-empted and the computer boots into DOS. However, as I mentioned, the CF card is essentially DOS's hard drive, it can't just be hot swapped while the system is running. And also, if I go through the trouble of building a retro rig, why would I not use floppy disks? If all I cared about was raw basic functionality I could have just used DOSBox. I want to make it convenient to do things the way things were done in the '90s, using authentic hardware and authentic media. Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Dec 31, 2023 |
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Dec 31, 2023 19:44
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Woolie Wool posted:And also, if I go through the trouble of building a retro rig, why would I not use floppy disks? If all I cared about was raw basic functionality I could have just used DOSBox. I want to make it convenient to do things the way things were done in the '90s, using authentic hardware and authentic media.
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Dec 31, 2023 20:40
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Computer viking posted:For retro data moving purposes, could you use a compactflash card and a CF to IDE adapter on the old side? Larger and faster than the LS-120 drive, and less likely to develop mechanical issues. I was gonna argue about dosbox too but realized I'm in the LINUX THREAD and immediately deleted my post after I typed it
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Dec 31, 2023 20:47
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mystes posted:I will accept this but only if you have complete period accurate room for your retro rig I know that a lot of the people here are bitter old IT workers who want to kill themselves but some people didn't make it the source of all their career regrets and actually still like messing with computers. If you think the Athlon and the bits of the Ryzen that exist to service it then you'd probably go apoplectic at my socket 8 Pentium Pro project with SCSI, an attempt (not successful so far, I haven't been able to boot it from CD yet) of building a 1996-era professional workstation. You know, to play DOS games. Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Dec 31, 2023 |
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Dec 31, 2023 21:06
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ziasquinn posted:I was gonna argue about dosbox too but realized I'm in the LINUX THREAD and immediately deleted my post after I typed it Dosbox runs on linux, it's on topic  Also, I can confirm that USB Zip drives work perfectly in modern Linux - they show up as removable drives in Fedora/Gnome/Nautilus, pressing eject actually ejects the disk, you can format it as whatever file system you like, and so on. I have a 250MB Zip disk with BTRFS and a few files, and I wonder how many like it exist on earth.
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Dec 31, 2023 21:16
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mystes posted:I will accept this but only if you have complete period accurate room for your retro rig The computer history museum in Seattle had this around a CRT TV with an Atari (or NES?) plugged in.  that place was cool; got to use a next box and saw a pdp
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Dec 31, 2023 21:22
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Computer viking posted:Dosbox runs on linux, it's on topic I just mean to say that like, why am i gonna argue about the way to go about running old software in the linux thread, the thread for freaks
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Dec 31, 2023 22:53
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I spun up a Debian VM to try out Trinity Desktop Environment, I didn't have high hopes but this is somehow worse than expected. Trinity has a version of Krusader (orthodox file manager, the one I use as my primary FM on my real computer running KDE Plasma) which is different from KDE Plasma's version (trying to install Krusader through apt makes it want to install dozens of KDE 5 libraries). They have a git repository for a TDE version of Krusader, but the install documentation is LITERALLY COPIED AND PASTED DIRECTLY FROM THE OLD KRUSADER CVS FROM 2008. The instructions tell you to use apt-get build-deps krusader, which of course gives you deps for the KDE 5 Krusader. The configure script calls for files that don't exist in the source folder. And of course they don't have a "tde-krusader" package or the like because that would be too easy. Yeah my beard isn't long enough for this poo poo. E: there is a package but you have to go rooting through the ppa in your browser because the names of packages aside from the base package are all undocumented! 
Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jan 1, 2024 |
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Jan 1, 2024 03:23
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Is there a reason why wayland doesn't have a sane permissions system where you can... say... grant an application access to the screencast portal permanently rather than having to grant it every. single. time.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:25
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Nitrousoxide posted:Is there a reason why wayland doesn't have a sane permissions system where you can... say... grant an application access to the screencast portal permanently rather than having to grant it every. single. time. I think the answer to any question like "why doesn't wayland have a sane _____" is "wayland doesn't implement _____ at all and every desktop has its own bespoke implementation"
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Jan 2, 2024 16:32
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mystes posted:Aren't "portals" not even part of wayland itself? Yup. "Wayland" doesn't implement anything, it's just a spec. And then yes, there are layers of unique implementation for each desktop. xdg-desktop-portal it the main thing everyone is using to manage permissions, it supports restoring a previous session (ie no permission popup), and the xdg-desktop-portal-gnome and -kde versions of that also have support. Other desktops may be lagging. But then the app itself needs to support restoring the previous session. So OBS can do this (assuming everything else in the chain also supports it) but other apps may be SOL. And each app may have a unique method to actually use it. So OBS I think does it automatically but KDE connect you have to edit a config file.
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Jan 2, 2024 17:37
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mystes posted:I think the answer to any question like "why doesn't wayland have a sane _____" is "wayland doesn't implement _____ at all and every desktop has its own bespoke implementation" I was reading a rant about this and it seems like wayland is just not very well designed or planned out. Lot of reinventing the wheel and the wayland team refusing to play ball with anyone and just saying "that isnt waylands responsibility". Apparently they only had copy paste protocols implemented in the last couple years?? Admittedly i dont know anything about X or wayland. I kind of hate that fedora is dropping X cause I am STILL constantly getting blocked by random poo poo in wayland. Been debating moving to arch but thats its own set of tedium
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Jan 2, 2024 17:43
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Mr. Crow posted:I was reading a rant about this and it seems like wayland is just not very well designed or planned out. Lot of reinventing the wheel and the wayland team refusing to play ball with anyone and just saying "that isnt waylands responsibility". Apparently they only had copy paste protocols implemented in the last couple years??
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Jan 2, 2024 17:49
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Wayland feels extremely second-system-syndrome to me. It’s like they saw the OSI stack and thought “ooh, let’s have that level of abstraction and impracticality in our desktop rendering system” or something I mean, X sucks, but “X with some breaking changes” feels like it might have got us to somewhere better
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Jan 2, 2024 17:57
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Mr. Crow posted:I was reading a rant about this and it seems like wayland is just not very well designed or planned out. Lot of reinventing the wheel and the wayland team refusing to play ball with anyone and just saying "that isnt waylands responsibility". Apparently they only had copy paste protocols implemented in the last couple years?? Assuming you're referring to the 'wayland breaks everything!' rant, Nate Graham from KDE has written a response. I don't think it's a great response, but it makes a few important point. I think the money quote is this: quote:Absolutely nobody writes an “X11 app”; their app may use functionality in X11 for something that there’s no better way to do, but the app will use Qt, GTK, KDE Frameworks, or whatever for 99.9% of its functionality. I'm getting almost Python3 vibes from this strategy (PipeWire is amazing, but it came eight years after Wayland), but the takeaway isn't totally unreasonable: X11 as a monolith had to be replaced by multiple different projects, of which Wayland is only one, but people got the impression that Wayland was supposed to replace all of it. Which was understandable since the FreeDesktop / RedHat crowd doesn't exactly have a PR budget worth mentioning. NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jan 2, 2024 |
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Jan 2, 2024 18:19
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NihilCredo posted:I think the money quote is this: Ahem! https://github.com/9wm/
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Jan 2, 2024 18:20
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I hope the thread is comforted by the thought that there are still weirdos left in the world. e: holy hell, I wrote xss 17 years ago?
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Jan 2, 2024 18:21
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Is there any VNC server that works with Wayland? I know TurboVNC has an entire fork of Xorg in its code base and I am sure how that interacts with the rest of things. I am satisfied with X and use XFCE most of the time.
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Jan 2, 2024 18:22
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mawarannahr posted:Is there any VNC server that works with Wayland? I know TurboVNC has an entire fork of Xorg in its code base and I am sure how that interacts with the rest of things.
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Jan 2, 2024 18:23
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cruft posted:I hope the thread is comforted by the thought that there are still weirdos left in the world. That made me wonder what the suckless guys are up to these days. Turns out they released two new programs in the past two years: - slstatus is a small tool for providing system status information to other programs over the EWMH property of the root window (used by dwm(1)) or standard input/output. It is designed to be as efficient as possible by only issuing the minimum of system calls required  .- lchat (line chat) is a line oriented front end for ii-like chat programs. It handles the input from keyboard and output file in parallel. Thus, you are able to type messages while new chat lines are arriving  Its main focus is on usability and simplicity.
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Jan 2, 2024 18:28
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NihilCredo posted:- lchat (line chat) is a line oriented front end for ii-like chat programs. It handles the input from keyboard and output file in parallel. Thus, you are able to type messages while new chat lines are arriving Requirements: libgrapheme quote:libgrapheme is an extremely simple freestanding C99 library providing utilities for properly handling strings according to the C99? What the gently caress? Don't talk to me unless you compile with -ansi -pedantic -Wall. Enshittification touches everything nowadays.
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Jan 2, 2024 18:54
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NihilCredo posted:- slstatus is a small tool for providing system status information to other programs over the EWMH property of the root window (used by dwm(1)) or standard input/output. It is designed to be as efficient as possible by only issuing the minimum of system calls required I was the guy that convinced Anselm to use the root window name for the status. Previously I think it was using stdin, and I think if your status program died, you had to restart your entire session. My patch reduced the size of dwm and made it more robust. I thought xsetroot -name was a pretty nice solution. I remember thinking maybe I'd write a standalone program to do this, but, whatever, xsetroot is good enough, everybody has it, and seriously who would want a dedicated program just to avoid having an extra argument to an existing and perfectly serviceable 30-year-old tool. Welp, this is why inventers need hype men, I guess! I would never have guessed anybody cared enough to compile and install a whole new program. e: I've got to say, I really enjoyed working with Anselm and the, like, two other core developers. Honestly, it was probably the most fun I've ever had contributing to somebody else's code. But their fanbase was the most obnoxious group of idiots I'd ever encountered. cruft fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jan 2, 2024 |
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Jan 2, 2024 18:55
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mawarannahr posted:C99? What the gently caress? Don't talk to me unless you compile with -ansi -pedantic -Wall. Enshittification touches everything nowadays. One time I fixed a bunch of bugs in the first ever web server to use the new sendfile system call. I sent the patches up and the author fixated on the fact that I was compiling against glibc instead of their own libowfat. I was like, okay, look, I just wanted to use glibc, can we focus on the fricking segmentation fault? Nope, it was just "why would you even use glibc, what's wrong with you". So I wrote up a shell script to demonstrate all the bugs, hoping that maybe the author would, like, run it, and see that, oh, hey, maybe I should fix these. Nope. And that is why I forked fnord. My fork distributes the shell script to break fnord. Last I checked, the bugs were still unpatched. Like, 20 years later. e: yep, still segfaults. The author even released another version after I sent in the script to demonstrate the problems, and every single problem is still there in the newer version. cruft fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jan 2, 2024 |
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Jan 2, 2024 19:01
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Mr. Crow posted:I was reading a rant about this and it seems like wayland is just not very well designed or planned out. I don't know poo poo either, but here's how I judge it: all the people who actually write DEs and GUI infrastructure are running to Wayland and seem to think it's way better than X. Ranting is easy. You can write a rant about how wayland is worse than x11, or systemd is worse than init, or linux is worse than sysv. If the ranter isn't picking up a shovel and working on xorg / init / sysv then the rant is just yelling at clouds. The fact that there are a half-dozen different implementations of Wayland is weird... But think of it like this: x11 was also a protocol, not a piece of software. There was never anything stopping every DE from having its own unique X server. They couldn't because it was too much for anyone but all of them together. Viewed that way, the multiple Wayland servers is a sign that it is good, not bad. Mr. Crow posted:I kind of hate that fedora is dropping X cause I am STILL constantly getting blocked by random poo poo in wayland. Been debating moving to arch but thats its own set of tedium Fedora is dropping X because Redhat wants to stop paying for xorg. At this point they are main maintainers of xorg (in terms of employing people who make the commits) and they don't want to do it anymore. Subjunctive posted:I mean, X sucks, but “X with some breaking changes” feels like it might have got us to somewhere better I may be wrong but I've read that there was an idea of "X12" at one point and it collapsed under its own weight. And so it was like, if we're gonna break compatibility let's just clean-sheet.
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Jan 3, 2024 02:06
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Subjunctive posted:Wayland feels extremely second-system-syndrome to me. It’s like they saw the OSI stack and thought “ooh, let’s have that level of abstraction and impracticality in our desktop rendering system” or something I think that part of it is them attempting to learn from X -- the core X protocol had a lot of terrible abandoned features that nobody used for anything, meanwhile X's extension mechanism and things like ICCCM/NetWM kept X useful for decades. So when it came time to design X's replacement they put the bare minimum in the core protocol with the intent to extend it out in various different ways to suit the needs of mouse & keyboard desktops vs. automotive touch interfaces vs. game consoles vs. whatever. Unfortunately, the core design is still fundamentally flawed, with things like using implicit sync or forgetting to include any kind of surface loss events so GPU recovery is an optional feature that no apps support; meanwhile they defined a bunch of "unstable" extensions that immediately became permanent unchangeable ABIs because nobody understand how to design ABIs and basic features like HDR are still missing because they want to get it right the first time and nobody is investing any money in Linux GUIs anyway. On top of that, instead of having a single implementation that everything can build against, you have GNOME vs. KDE vs. a bunch of grognard also-rans each doing their own incompatible thing. The end result is that the Wayland user experience is across-the-board worse than X while none of the important issues are getting fixed.
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Jan 3, 2024 04:30
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The Pipewire change over was (largely) a all-around improvement to my sound experience on Linux. Maybe Wayland has some security or performance improvements in the back end, but it's in no way visible to me, the user. And the UX with it has been awful with how tons of apps just can't stream or screen capture. poo poo like having to physically sit at my computer to accept a wayland share screen dialogue box for steamlink is just loving terrible UX. The fact that you cannot capture the mouse (on the desktop, I believe only software a rendered mouse like in games is ever visible) in screen recording even with loving root access is mind-boggling. It's just been all around a worse experience to me, the user, than X11. And I didn't even start on X11. I started using Linux when Wayland was already starting to be rolled out. So I don't have any rose-tinted glasses for the good ol' days.
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Jan 3, 2024 05:16
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I'm still waiting for the y window system. also my work laptop's touchpad sucks without the synaptics driver 😩
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Jan 3, 2024 06:17
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Klyith posted:I don't know poo poo either, but here's how I judge it: all the people who actually write DEs and GUI infrastructure are running to Wayland and seem to think it's way better than X. X11 was designed before anybody knew what was going to unfold when it came to graphics on computers. Wayland has the benefit of seeing what decades of user interfaces had in common. Some things that jump to mind immediately: X11 has at least two different clipboard standards, and every app has to implement both. It was based around 8-bit characters, so handling unicode requires yet another funky extension. 9wm (my window manager) just sidestepped the whole issue, getting to claim "hey we're a legacy Window Manager that's mostly of historical interest". Because rendering unicode strings requires fancy extensions and libraries and bonkers font setup on the server, nobody bothers: they just use GTK+ or Qt. Not only that, subpixel glyph antialiasing isn't implemented by the X server, so unless you like the 1997 look of chunky pixellated fonts on your 72dpi monitor, you have to render fonts client-side (in the app). That means you also have to reimplement text selection and all the other text crap that the server provides. Every modern app is pretty much just sidestepping the bulk of what X11 provides, doing rendering locally, and telling X "please update the screen based on this bitmap in shared memory". It's pretty much a klunkier version of Wayland's frame buffer model. Your fancy local-font-rendering app also has to track every mouse movement, which is sent over a Unix domain socket, because X was designed to be network transparent. There's a ton of back-and-forth in a select loop, triggering pantloads of system calls and context switches just to move the damned mouse. This is not what X was designed to do. If you use something written to use Athena widgets, like, say, xclock, or xfontsel, it's super fast. You can even run it on a remote system and display on your local workstation, and it uses the locally installed fonts. It probably seems bonkers to modern desktop users that you'd want to launch an app on a remote system and have it see your local fonts and widget preferences (theme), but that's what X was designed to do. You could even run an X server on low-cost desktop hardware and run the window manager and everything else on a big beefy server. This is how my roommate and I were set up in college: he used a Sun 3 with a 60 pound black and white cathode ray tube, that network booted from my Linux workstation, so everything he did was on my Linux box, including the window manager, login screen, and basically everything but the graphics. And I'm just focusing on the two or three things I know about : there are dozens of problems with X11 like mode switching, multi-monitor dot pitches, and other things I'm not even aware of. You don't need to understand anything I just wrote, though. It's enough to remember that X11 is from like 1982, and it's just old and creaky.
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Jan 3, 2024 06:31
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Any Synergy users here? First day of work today and somehow it was fully broken on my main machine (Fedora 39). Luckily I had the previous version's RPM lying around but I spent a long time today trying to figure out the issue, never did. Broken version is 3.0.78.1, working version 3.0.77.2. The only clues I found were references to gdm. The packages from Symless say they're for Fedora 38, did something change around gdm for 39?
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Jan 3, 2024 08:18
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