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Hughmoris
Apr 21, 2007
Let's go to the abyss!

Internet Explorer posted:

Whenever I've tried to figure out what I wanted to do next, or whenever I'm talking to someone in a similar position, I try to keep in mind what's adjacent to them now.

If someone who currently does helpdesk wants to learn how to do IaC and DevOps, more power to them. That poo poo is awesome. But the people making that jump are few and far between and finding a company who will hire you to do DevOps because you have your AWS SA Pro and your previous experience is tier 1 helpdesk are fewer than those who will hire you modernize their endpoint and identity systems with a cert more relevant to what you do every day.

I promise you there are plenty of people making plenty of money doing Intune/Azure AD. Just because you don't find it interesting doesn't mean it's not interesting to others, a good career path, or even a good stepping stone.

...

Extremely well said

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Cenodoxus
Mar 29, 2012

while [[ true ]] ; do
    pour()
done


tokin opposition posted:

What's the best way to do cloud stuff that's applicable to AWS, Azure, and GCS? And how do I learn to use docker and Terraform? I've been meaning to put up a home server box to start on a lab, using an old desktop to get it done on the cheap. Just play around in a VM until I break something or skynet comes for me?

I signed up for the AWS free tier and used that as a testbed to play around with Terraform a few years ago. Now I lead a team that basically lives and breathes Terraform. You'll need to watch your bill like a hawk - make sure you stay within the free tier limits, and don't leave things running overnight. Always, always, always run a terraform destroy at the end of a lab session. Too many horror stories of people ending up with four or five-digit AWS bills because they forgot about something they had provisioned or didn't understand the free tier limits and walked away from it for a few weeks. AWS won't fix it because it's an endless supply of either revenue or goodwill, depending on how generous they're feeling at that moment.

There are some pretty good Terraform courses on the various training sites, really depends on what you have easy access to.

As for Docker, the beauty of it is you can do that all yourself, all 100% free, just by installing Docker on your PC and farting around with it on the desktop and through the command line. Use and abuse the containers, spin them up and treat them like a VM that you can wipe away and re-provision in an instant if you manage to gently caress something so hard that it's not worth figuring out how to unfuck it. :science:

The Iron Rose posted:

Edit: also take two hours and read the Wikipedia page on public key cryptography.
gently caress yeah. When it comes to scenarios that can turn highly experienced IT people into stunned deer, PKI and networking are right at the top of the list. Certificates are everywhere now, too, because plaintext is bad bad bad, so when certs expire or some root gets revoked somewhere, all hell breaks loose. Between knowing certificates and knowing networking, you can be the hero in so many Sev-1s.

tehinternet
Feb 14, 2005

Semantically, "you" is both singular and plural, though syntactically it is always plural. It always takes a verb form that originally marked the word as plural.

Also, there is no plural when the context is an argument with an individual rather than a group. Somfin shouldn't put words in my mouth.

Cyks posted:

I bath in the blood of tickets I close immediately with “again, this must go through HR like the last three times I told you. Ticket closed.”

No, I’m not going to create an account for Jane Doe with no other information per request by a non manager employee (unless that person has HR in their title).

Reading this one handed

Yeah, these tickets are very much my poo poo and one of the few times I’ll go hard on our tier 1 guys (because they know better than to enable that kind of dumb poo poo).

Hotel Kpro
Feb 24, 2011

owls don't go to school
Dinosaur Gum

KillHour posted:


A what? I don't think that exists here. :confused:

Wingstop is a chain chicken wing fast food place seemingly all over the country except for Buffalo. I dunno why someone would want to go to one in such a specific location, they’re everywhere and just okay

Hughmoris
Apr 21, 2007
Let's go to the abyss!

KillHour posted:

A what? I don't think that exists here. :confused:

Hotel Kpro posted:

Wingstop is a chain chicken wing fast food place seemingly all over the country except for Buffalo. I dunno why someone would want to go to one in such a specific location, they’re everywhere and just okay

It was a joke reference to Michael Scott being in NYC and excitedly running to Sbarro's for a slice. I love wings and I'd make it my mission to find the best spots if I ever travel to Buffalo.

That episode is almost 18 years old. Holy poo poo I'm getting old.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


Hotel Kpro posted:

Wingstop is a chain chicken wing fast food place seemingly all over the country except for Buffalo. I dunno why someone would want to go to one in such a specific location, they’re everywhere and just okay

There is a Buffalo Wild Wings here and I genuinely do not understand how it says open. Who the hell goes there? Why?

Anyways if you actually find yourself in Buffalo, there are lots of great non-wing foods you should try. But if you insist that it must be wings from specifically a wing place, go to Wingnutz.

Hughmoris posted:

It was a joke reference to Michael Scott being in NYC and excitedly running to Sbarro's for a slice.

That episode is almost 18 years old. Holy poo poo I'm getting old.

We all are, friend. We all are.

jaegerx
Sep 10, 2012

Maybe this post will get me on your ignore list!


Internet Explorer posted:

Whenever I've tried to figure out what I wanted to do next, or whenever I'm talking to someone in a similar position, I try to keep in mind what's adjacent to them now.

If someone who currently does helpdesk wants to learn how to do IaC and DevOps, more power to them. That poo poo is awesome. But the people making that jump are few and far between and finding a company who will hire you to do DevOps because you have your AWS SA Pro and your previous experience is tier 1 helpdesk are fewer than those who will hire you modernize their endpoint and identity systems with a cert more relevant to what you do every day.

I promise you there are plenty of people making plenty of money doing Intune/Azure AD. Just because you don't find it interesting doesn't mean it's not interesting to others, a good career path, or even a good stepping stone.

If I had to guess, I probably make more than the vast majority of people in this thread. I don't know how to code. I don't do IaC. I don't run my own home K8s cluster. Hell, don't tell the NAS thread, but I have a Synology NAS instead of rolling my own. And despite the username, I don't and have never worked for Microsoft and my current role doesn't even involve any of their stack.

Not that it's not all good advice, but I think the world is more complicated than "just learn Terraform and Kubernetes." That may be a hard transition for someone. They may get discouraged because it's so far from what they're doing today that they don't get enough time during the day to use it. For someone like me, simply learning IaC things would not have advanced my career at any point. I find DevOps stuff really interesting. It's just not close enough to my day to day to matter.

[Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's good advice to learn how to code, do IaC, do DevOpsy things. If that interests you, go for it. But I don't think it's a truism and I don't agree with it being the only path for someone in tech. Sysadmin isn't a popular title these days not because the concepts don't exist anymore, but because we've all gotten specialized enough that it's not a useful term. It's not the first time titles evolve and I'm sure it won't be the last.]

TLDR

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005





KillHour posted:

There is a Buffalo Wild Wings here and I genuinely do not understand how it says open. Who the hell goes there? Why?

My in-laws seem to love the place. I assume based off of that it's good for people who don't like food.


look,

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003


it's one of those chains where the food is ancillary to serving beer while sports play on big tvs

kensei
Dec 27, 2007

He has come home, where he belongs. The Ancient Mariner returns to lead his first team to glory, forever and ever. Amen!


I used to rewatch UFC PPVs at BWW, so sports is their bread and butter so to speak

Hotel Kpro
Feb 24, 2011

owls don't go to school
Dinosaur Gum

Hughmoris posted:

It was a joke reference to Michael Scott being in NYC and excitedly running to Sbarro's for a slice. I love wings and I'd make it my mission to find the best spots if I ever travel to Buffalo.

That episode is almost 18 years old. Holy poo poo I'm getting old.

That went right over my head. Pretty sure I was watching It’s Always Sunny instead

Wings are great, we had found a good spot here in Ft Collins but uhhhh the wings (okay they were tendies) betrayed us one time too many.

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

BWW was decent for a wings chain like 10-15 years ago. Then private equity got their slimy mitts into it and it cratered fast. Food quality dropped, the menu went bland, and they switched to Pepsi (surest sign of a decline).

The wings were never amazing, but they worked in a pinch. Now it's completely inedible.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005





kensei posted:

I used to rewatch UFC PPVs at BWW, so sports is their bread and butter so to speak

Ah, that makes sense in this case. They do like to watch UFC. And eat lovely food.

Hotel Kpro
Feb 24, 2011

owls don't go to school
Dinosaur Gum
Bdubs still has Caribbean jerk which is pretty good. I feel like it’s not easy finding that around here. I don’t live in Toronto where I can pop on down to the nearest Indian Jamaican fusion restaurant and grab something amazing on my lunch break

The Iron Rose
May 12, 2012

:minnie: Cat Army :minnie:

Internet Explorer posted:


[Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's good advice to learn how to code, do IaC, do DevOpsy things. If that interests you, go for it. But I don't think it's a truism and I don't agree with it being the only path for someone in tech. Sysadmin isn't a popular title these days not because the concepts don't exist anymore, but because we've all gotten specialized enough that it's not a useful term. It's not the first time titles evolve and I'm sure it won't be the last.]

I entirely agree the world is more complicated than terraform and kubernetes, which is why I mentioned terraform once and kubernetes zero times.

Instead, I suggested learning about setting up an off the shelf ad-blocking DNS filtration system, making it highly available, optionally adding a VPN since that’s something you actually support as a sysadmin, to focus on azure since that’s where most cloud identity and modern management stuff lives, and to learn to code. All very key skills for any competent systems administrator! Helpful recommendations, because just as you said, sysadmin roles are the essential next step since nobody will hire an devops engineer from an helpdesk background and you need that baseline experience to jump to more specialized and interesting roles.

But all this is sort of besides the point because the tools don’t really matter. They are useful means to an end to learn the important underlying concepts that underly the reliable development of information technology systems.


there’s a larger very skippable rant below that you’ve all heard me say before.


I disagree with the rest of your post. The sysadmin role is dying not only because the posters in this thread have grown beyond it, but because the concepts it espouses have been utterly outcompeted by engineering concepts developed and adopted over the past two decades. You’re right that there are good jobs doing endpoint management and sysadmin work and intune and many of them pay well. And you could not be more wrong that new development philosophies are irrelevant to your work. You’re right that you don’t need them to be successful or to feel fulfilled, and that is enough. But they will help you achieve even greater excellence, and excellence is worth aspiring to!

The cloud is an amazing layer of abstraction and enabler for these new ideas, but these concepts are practices for systems management writ large, not just enterprise software! Whether it’s version control, automation, continuous integration, rapid deployment and iteration, observable and secure system design, zero downtime deployments... these are ideals applicable regardless of whether you’re managing fleets of laptops, fleets of docker containers, fleets of container ships, fleets of satellites, or fleets of messenger RNA. The requirements and error budgets differ, but many of these ideas remain useful, from the macro scale to the micro scale. My partner is studying for medical school and we can even have surprisingly intelligent conversations about cellular networking, microbiological signalling cascades, or even the adaptive immune response that benefit from the synthesis of our areas of studies. if I can help my partner apply devops practices to cellular microbiology graduate projects I’m confident you can find your way to applying similar practices to entra ID and intune deployment rings.

These changes in IT are just a microcosm of the changes we see everywhere. Just as we have so profoundly evolved beyond shipping changes to production websites via FTP, storing code on the single senior engineer’s laptop based shares, or casually cloning Active Directory security groups and GPO memberships, we have similarly evolved in many other domains. Of course companies and countries great and small still do things the old way, but frankly they are being outcompeted left and right by those who are faster, flexible, scalable, and more open to new ideas.

It is awe-inspiring to hear stories of how much we’ve advanced and developed and produced in a scant few decades, and the results are nothing short of extraordinary. Thousands of businesses, millions of jobs, entire industries and corporate economies bigger than many countries exist because of ideas born of the Information Age, and we’re developing new transformative ideas in every single technology domain. Whether it’s disease resistant GMOs, rapid development of effective mRNA vaccines for COVID and cancer alike, or breaking the back of OPEC and fuelling the energy transition, advanced technology and production practices are transforming our world in profound ways and producing consistently better standards of living for humans across the entire globe. Not all of these new technologies are good… but many of them are!

So yes, the truisms and practices we espouse today are not universal, and they will be outcompeted in turn in twenty years, and I am so excited to see what futures those new philosophies will reveal.

The old concepts you speak about still exist in zombie corporations, highly regulated industries, NGOs, and your mom and pop organizations consistently posting 5-10% YOY growth. If your dream is to earn a paycheque, go home at 5pm every night, find personal fulfillment outside of your craft, in family or social causes, I truly encourage you to pursue career choices and personal development opportunities accordingly. These are just as legitimate and in many ways do more good for the world than pursuing professional success and furthering frontiers in your future fields.

But whenever people ask for advice, I will always advocate for ambition.

The Iron Rose fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Jan 3, 2024

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005





The Iron Rose posted:

I entirely agree the world is more complicated than terraform and kubernetes, which is why I mentioned terraform once and kubernetes zero times.

The Iron Rose posted:

Literally any networking cert and a few Python projects on a public GitHub page. Terraform and any amount of public cloud experience is a nice to have.

Coincidentally this is also the profile I’d love for a Junior DevOps position but they’re basically the same role except one sucks a lot more.

You mentioned it in your first response. I brought up K8s because you talk about it a lot and are obviously very knowledgeable about the topic.

The Iron Rose posted:

Instead, I suggested learning about setting up an off the shelf ad-blocking DNS filtration system, making it highly available, optionally adding a VPN since that’s something you actually support as a sysadmin, to focus on azure since that’s where most cloud identity and modern management stuff lives, and to learn to code. All very key skills for any competent systems administrator! Helpful recommendations, because just as you said, sysadmin roles are the essential next step since nobody will hire an devops engineer from an helpdesk background and you need that baseline experience to jump to more specialized and interesting roles.

But all this is sort of besides the point because the tools don’t really matter. They are useful means to an end to learn the important underlying concepts that underly the reliable development of information technology systems.

Like I said, all good advice. It sounds like we're mostly on the same page here, unless I am misunderstanding something.

The Iron Rose posted:

there’s a larger very skippable rant below that you’ve all heard me say before.

I disagree with the rest of your post. The sysadmin role is dying not only because the posters in this thread have grown beyond it, but because the concepts it espouses have been utterly outcompeted by engineering concepts developed and adopted over the past two decades. You’re right that there are good jobs doing endpoint management and sysadmin work and intune and many of them pay well. And you could not be more wrong that new development philosophies are irrelevant to your work. You’re right that you don’t need them to be successful or to feel fulfilled, and that is enough. But they will help you achieve even greater excellence, and excellence is worth aspiring to!

The cloud is an amazing layer of abstraction and enabler for these new ideas, but these concepts are practices for systems management writ large, not just enterprise software! Whether it’s version control, automation, continuous integration, rapid deployment and iteration, observable and secure system design, zero downtime deployments... these are ideals applicable regardless of whether you’re managing fleets of laptops, fleets of docker containers, fleets of container ships, fleets of satellites, or fleets of messenger RNA. The requirements and error budgets differ, but many of these ideas remain useful, from the macro scale to the micro scale. My partner is studying for medical school and we can even have surprisingly intelligent conversations about cellular networking, microbiological signalling cascades, or even the adaptive immune response that benefit from the synthesis of our areas of studies. if I can help my partner apply devops practices to cellular microbiology graduate projects I’m confident you can find your way to applying similar practices to entra ID and intune deployment rings.

I don't think I said anything about those philosophies being irrelevant. Half of the things you listed can and have been done for a long time without needing to know IaC or coding. And a good number of them are not a requirement for many, many solutions. And yes, you can apply many of the concepts to Entra ID and Intune. You even learn those concepts when learning about those topics, something you advised not doing. Like I said, I get it. I was turning Citrix servers into "cattle not pets" in... I think it was 2006 with Windows 2003. It had version control, automation, continuous integration, rapid deployment and iteration, observable (lol maybe not secure) system design, zero downtime deployments. Hopefully you're nodding along because this is to your point. My point is that it was more or less without code. I think there was a few basic batch scripts. The most complex part was user profile management, which had a bit of AutoHotkey. So while we're agreeing on "the philosophies are good," hopefully I've driven home my point, which again, you seem to be agreeing with, is that those philosophies are in lots of places in the IT world and you'll learn them when they're relevant to your goals.

The Iron Rose posted:

These changes in IT are just a microcosm of the changes we see everywhere. Just as we have so profoundly evolved beyond shipping changes to production websites via FTP, storing code on the single senior engineer’s laptop based shares, or casually cloning Active Directory security groups and GPO memberships, we have similarly evolved in many other domains. Of course companies and countries great and small still do things the old way, but frankly they are being outcompeted left and right by those who are faster, flexible, scalable, and more open to new ideas.

It is awe-inspiring to hear stories of how much we’ve advanced and developed and produced in a scant few decades, and the results are nothing short of extraordinary. Thousands of businesses, millions of jobs, entire industries and corporate economies bigger than many countries exist because of ideas born of the Information Age, and we’re developing new transformative ideas in every single technology domain. Whether it’s disease resistant GMOs, rapid development of effective mRNA vaccines for COVID and cancer alike, or breaking the back of OPEC and fuelling the energy transition, advanced technology and production practices are transforming our world in profound ways and producing consistently better standards of living for humans across the entire globe. Not all of these new technologies are good… but many of them are!

So yes, the truisms and practices we espouse today are not universal, and they will be outcompeted in turn in twenty years, and I am so excited to see what futures those new philosophies will reveal.

All I can say is that I think this is where we disagree. There are plenty of places that have plenty of old crud and aren't being "outcompeted" because of it. This is some survival of the fittest, market wins, meritocracy crap. Yes, the future is amazing. Yes, things change. But your visibility into the future isn't the only one and doing DevOps-adjacent work isn't any more valid of a career path than suggesting someone who is looking to get into a jr. sysadmin role to look at modern endpoint and identity management. So again, I'm not saying you're wrong in your recommendation to look at DevOps stuff, but my criticism is the rate at which you poo-poo things that you view as "old" because they don't interest you, even when they are very modern solutions.

The Iron Rose posted:

The old concepts you speak about still exist in zombie corporations, highly regulated industries, NGOs, and your mom and pop organizations consistently posting 5-10% YOY growth. If your dream is to earn a paycheque, go home at 5pm every night, find personal fulfillment outside of your craft, in family or social causes, I truly encourage you to pursue career choices and personal development opportunities accordingly. These are just as legitimate and in many ways do more good for the world than pursuing professional success and furthering frontiers in your future fields.

What old concepts are you talking about? I haven't mentioned any. Certainly Entra ID / Intune aren't what we're talking about here? And I suspect if we look a little careful at the orgs outside of your umbrella categorization, we'll certainly find plenty of outdated concepts.

The Iron Rose posted:

But whenever people ask for advice, I will always advocate for ambition.

It's hard for me not to respond to this in some sort of pithy manner, so I'll just say that my advice isn't "look at adjacent things" because it's lazy or unambitious. It's my advice because I think it's a better approach for most people, myself included. If someone did decide to go that route, they shouldn't be considered unambitious. I honestly think that's a bit insulting.

Anyways, not looking to do nerd battle. Just trying to explain my perspective in that DevOpsy things are cool and good, but there's a whole wide world out there that people can find interesting, or even make a good living in.

Internet Explorer fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Jan 3, 2024

sudo rm -rf
Aug 2, 2011


$ mv fullcommunism.sh
/america
$ cd /america
$ ./fullcommunism.sh


Charliegrs posted:

This is probably a dumb question but how the hell do I upload a Cisco Nexus switch with a new NX-OS image without it timing out? It's a C93180YC-FX model that I'm trying to update to version 9.3.12. The image is really big, almost 2 gigs and I guess our SCP server isn't on the fastest connection in the world so it takes absolutely forever. So long that the connection times out. Unfortunately I have to do this through the switch CLI because this model Nexus isn't supported by Cisco prime and that's the only app we have that can upload images to a device.

i ran into this recently on an asr-1002hx and the solution was to increase the ssh and tcp window size. just don't forget to switch it back.

https://community.cisco.com/t5/network-management/slow-scp-transfer-asr-router/td-p/2428164

sudo rm -rf
Aug 2, 2011


$ mv fullcommunism.sh
/america
$ cd /america
$ ./fullcommunism.sh


Antioch posted:

"This year, we're going all in on AI! 2024 is going to be The Year of AI! AI AI AI! We're gonna do it! AI! Woo!"


....but, we make dog food. How is AI going to..?

"AI! A! I! It's everywhere! We have to get it! You're going to training! AI!"



...gently caress.

every time i come across the word 'ai' i start to hear caboose from red vs blue.

The Iron Rose
May 12, 2012

:minnie: Cat Army :minnie:

Internet Explorer posted:


All I can say is that I think this is where we disagree. There are plenty of places that have plenty of old crud and aren't being "outcompeted" because of it. This is some survival of the fittest, market wins, meritocracy crap. Yes, the future is amazing. Yes, things change. But your visibility into the future isn't the only one and doing DevOps-adjacent work isn't any more valid of a career path than suggesting someone who is looking to get into a jr. sysadmin role to look at modern endpoint and identity management. So again, I'm not saying you're wrong in your recommendation to look at DevOps stuff, but my criticism is the rate at which you poo-poo things that you view as "old" because they don't interest you, even when they are very modern solutions.

What old concepts are you talking about? I haven't mentioned any. Certainly Entra ID / Intune aren't what we're talking about here? And I suspect if we look a little careful at the orgs outside of your umbrella categorization, we'll certainly find plenty of outdated concepts.

It's hard for me not to respond to this in some sort of pithy manner, so I'll just say that my advice isn't "look at adjacent things" because it's lazy or unambitious. It's my advice because I think it's a better approach for most people, myself included. If someone did decide to go that route, they shouldn't be considered unambitious. I honestly think that's a bit insulting.

Anyways, not looking to do nerd battle. Just trying to explain my perspective in that DevOpsy things are cool and good, but there's a whole wide world out there that people can find interesting, or even make a good living in.

I’m snipping the response prior to here because I think we agree with most of it. I also want to say I appreciate your in depth, thoughtful response.

However, if you feel that my post was an argument for DevOps methodologies specifically, then I failed to make myself sufficiently clear. I believe DevOps methodologies are superior to traditional methodologies of system administration, particularly those embodied by Tokin’s workplace. But DevOps is not the end of history by any stretch of the imagination. My argument is that one should constantly strive to learn new things, even when they are adjacent to your current field of study, because they can inspire you to solve problems in new and better ways than they have been solved previously.

Speaking personally, I went to school for political science and gender studies, self taught myself everything I know about information technology and software engineering, and I’m now learning medical microbiology and finding that there’s a surprising amount of overlap! The political science degree helps me communicate effectively and navigate corporate politics, the tech skills earn me a living, and the biological studies are a work in progress but one that I hope culminates in a shared research paper or two with my partner and I.

For example - and it’s late and I’m phoneposting and forgive any minor errors here - I recently learnt about action potentials. I was shocked to learn how slow intercellular communication occurred! Obviously there’s many other forms of intercellular communication - cytokines, chemical and hormonal signalling, gap junctions, etc. Action Potentials are electrical impulses and they are a key mechanism by which cell to cell communication occurs. sodium and calcium play key roles here (sodium primarily generates and propagates the action potential, calcium is critical for neurotransmission). electrical transmission and signal processing of course occur through the rise and fall of electrical amplitude which is the voltage change during depolarization (when you get lots of positively charged sodium ions). There’s the additional wrinkle of amplitude strength which isn’t exactly represented by raw ones and zeros, once more proving the brain is vastly more efficient at many methods of computation due to the breadth and compactness of signal ranges and the information contained therein.

Now, even though the rise and fall in amplitude occurs in fractions of a millisecond, most neurons emit less than a hundred electrical signals per second! some are even far slower than that. This was shocking to me when I learnt it, because we have only about 86 billion neurons in the human brain (far more throughout the body, we’re still not sure exactly how many), as this compares surprisingly competitively with silicon transistor chips. Obviously neuron signal processing is vastly more efficient because of the extraordinary levels of parallelism and enriched signal possibilities, which we’re only juuuuust starting to see with quantum computing. With traditional microprocessors you get logical operations in more sequential and fixed manners, and you largely operate on binary ones and zeros, and so even if the counts of computing entities (where each neuron is analogous to a transistor) are similar the brain has vastly more flexible procsssing capabilities. Still, it is profoundly inspiring to know we’re producing competitive processing engines, even if only at sequential levels. and the sequential barrier is fading too! the attention mechanism of LLM transformers is a revolutionary way of relating some of the efficient parallel processing of input sequencing that relates and captures contextual relationships between words, thereby enabling the model to process different parts of the input sequence simultaneously, just as the brain performs parallel processing through massive numbers of parallel neural electrical signalling cascades! And obviously you can create parallel processing architectures using sequential processors as building blocks. There’s efficiency limits, but we’re building brains and that’s loving fascinating and we’re creating real products that make real impacts with them! Neuromorphic computing is still in its infancy, and if you’ll forgive the florid turn of phrase, I eagerly await our collective apotheosis in the course of creating our silicone homunculi.

I say all this not to encourage all IT engineers to get biology degrees. I say this to emphasize that even domains as disparate as enterprise software and cellular signalling can combine to produce revolutionary changes in our collective human experience and there’s lessons to be learned across domains. And hey, as we start loving with mRNA and programmable cellular structures more, we probably want to make sure they’re observable and version controlled too!

The inverse applies too obviously. My partner is building Jupityr notebooks and taking automated readings from lab machines and creating statistical models in R, version controlled in GitHub, and they are waltzing through one of the world’s toughest medical undergrad program with 90+ averages in hard sciences. When they worked as a vet tech they read documentation for the patient medical record and processing system, developed better and automated workflows, and realized that if the single shared laptop complained about not being able to talk to the ancient file share based EMR system then someone probably turned the server stored in the public bathroom off by accident so they could press a button instead of calling the MSP tech. You don’t need to be at the forefront of technology to implement better practices and improve productivity and produce better products and patient outcomes.

When I was a baby sysadmin in my second or third job, I leapt at the opportunity to study everything I could about what was then a new and exciting world of infra as code, the cloud writ large, modern authentication protocols like oauth, zero trust access modules, etc. my boss and my role demanded none of that from me, but I took that knowledge and I used it to create my own projects and drive transformative results.

I’m not saying Tokin should spin up a k8s cluster to learn terraform to get a DevOps job from a helpdesk role. Im saying she should learn everything that interests them, that many DevOps practices are relevant and useful to traditional IT duties, and that disparate domains can combine in fascinating, unprecedented, and transformative ways. To do this is ambitious and admirable. To do otherwise is… normal, traditional, and a well trod pathway to success! That’s not a bad thing, and certainly not something to be condemned, and I’ve repeatedly said that there are many many other ways people can find purpose and value in life. I do, however, apologize for the implicit insult in implying that failing to do something silly like marry neural processing and IT is not ambitious. I don’t apologize for the implicit insult in implying that failing to learn something, anything new, even if it’s only cursorily related or several levels above you, is unambitious (which I appreciate was not your argument).

Ultimately I think we’re violently agreeing with one another with about 80% of what we’re saying here. But as far as ambition goes, combining disciplines in weird and non-obvious ways can produce fascinating outcomes, cross-field applied science is ambitious and rare and something to be celebrated, and DevOps techniques and traditional IT operations are one of the more natural and happier marriages out there.

Edit:

Old tools have their place too, and incumbency and scale let you get away with a lot. For example, I’d never suggest a bank replace their mainframe with open shift clusters for credit card transactions!

But I do think there’s a much more interesting future in India or China’s digital payments infrastructure freed from the hidebound nature of American - or worse, Japanese - traditional banks that enables economic growth and micro finance we can never replicate with traditional clearing house based technologies. And I think those newer techniques will outperform traditional finance methodologies in many key and important ways over the coming century.


edit 2:

re: old concepts. I am several years out of date, but most DevOps bullshit courses teach you some of those fancy new software dev best practices alongside the how to X in Y tool. My concern is that endpoint management certs are more tool than concept oriented. Focusing on the latter will, I feel, more effectively teach you skillsets are that let you thrive in many many different domains. Learning how to do entra/intune endpoint management will more effectively teach you the entra/intune endpoint management skillset and i fear will not going to be as easily generalized. In this way, terraform certs (lol) are largely a waste, but networking and some of the professional cloud certs are less so. Purely from the perspective of the knowledge you gain, I make no claim on the ease of finding work with one versus the other!

The Iron Rose fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Jan 3, 2024

SyNack Sassimov
May 4, 2006

Let the robot win.
            --Captain James T. Vader


The Iron Rose posted:

I entirely agree the world is more complicated than terraform and kubernetes, which is why I mentioned terraform once and kubernetes zero times.

Instead, I suggested learning about setting up an off the shelf ad-blocking DNS filtration system, making it highly available, optionally adding a VPN since that’s something you actually support as a sysadmin, to focus on azure since that’s where most cloud identity and modern management stuff lives, and to learn to code. All very key skills for any competent systems administrator! Helpful recommendations, because just as you said, sysadmin roles are the essential next step since nobody will hire an devops engineer from an helpdesk background and you need that baseline experience to jump to more specialized and interesting roles.

But all this is sort of besides the point because the tools don’t really matter. They are useful means to an end to learn the important underlying concepts that underly the reliable development of information technology systems.


there’s a larger very skippable rant below that you’ve all heard me say before.


I disagree with the rest of your post. The sysadmin role is dying not only because the posters in this thread have grown beyond it, but because the concepts it espouses have been utterly outcompeted by engineering concepts developed and adopted over the past two decades. You’re right that there are good jobs doing endpoint management and sysadmin work and intune and many of them pay well. And you could not be more wrong that new development philosophies are irrelevant to your work. You’re right that you don’t need them to be successful or to feel fulfilled, and that is enough. But they will help you achieve even greater excellence, and excellence is worth aspiring to!

The cloud is an amazing layer of abstraction and enabler for these new ideas, but these concepts are practices for systems management writ large, not just enterprise software! Whether it’s version control, automation, continuous integration, rapid deployment and iteration, observable and secure system design, zero downtime deployments... these are ideals applicable regardless of whether you’re managing fleets of laptops, fleets of docker containers, fleets of container ships, fleets of satellites, or fleets of messenger RNA. The requirements and error budgets differ, but many of these ideas remain useful, from the macro scale to the micro scale. My partner is studying for medical school and we can even have surprisingly intelligent conversations about cellular networking, microbiological signalling cascades, or even the adaptive immune response that benefit from the synthesis of our areas of studies. if I can help my partner apply devops practices to cellular microbiology graduate projects I’m confident you can find your way to applying similar practices to entra ID and intune deployment rings.

These changes in IT are just a microcosm of the changes we see everywhere. Just as we have so profoundly evolved beyond shipping changes to production websites via FTP, storing code on the single senior engineer’s laptop based shares, or casually cloning Active Directory security groups and GPO memberships, we have similarly evolved in many other domains. Of course companies and countries great and small still do things the old way, but frankly they are being outcompeted left and right by those who are faster, flexible, scalable, and more open to new ideas.

It is awe-inspiring to hear stories of how much we’ve advanced and developed and produced in a scant few decades, and the results are nothing short of extraordinary. Thousands of businesses, millions of jobs, entire industries and corporate economies bigger than many countries exist because of ideas born of the Information Age, and we’re developing new transformative ideas in every single technology domain. Whether it’s disease resistant GMOs, rapid development of effective mRNA vaccines for COVID and cancer alike, or breaking the back of OPEC and fuelling the energy transition, advanced technology and production practices are transforming our world in profound ways and producing consistently better standards of living for humans across the entire globe. Not all of these new technologies are good… but many of them are!

So yes, the truisms and practices we espouse today are not universal, and they will be outcompeted in turn in twenty years, and I am so excited to see what futures those new philosophies will reveal.

The old concepts you speak about still exist in zombie corporations, highly regulated industries, NGOs, and your mom and pop organizations consistently posting 5-10% YOY growth. If your dream is to earn a paycheque, go home at 5pm every night, find personal fulfillment outside of your craft, in family or social causes, I truly encourage you to pursue career choices and personal development opportunities accordingly. These are just as legitimate and in many ways do more good for the world than pursuing professional success and furthering frontiers in your future fields.

But whenever people ask for advice, I will always advocate for ambition.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




The Iron Rose posted:

as a long term note… you can go pretty far into the middle of your career without needing to code. past a certain point, you really do have to be able to program in a language or two, or have very very deep niche subject domain expertise people are willing to pay for (networking, database poo poo, etc - and those domains are enhanced by programming knowledge too!).

I'm not talking to TIR, I'm talking to desktop folks who aren't sure where to start with the whole "learning to code" thing:

Use the command line more.

That's it, that's where you start.

Is someone's AD account[1] locked? Don't open ADUC, open a PowerShell terminal and use Get-ADUser to pull the Enabled property.
Need to move an object into a different OU? That's about 6 lines of PowerShell.
Same for adding a group membership. Work out how to do it on the command line and make a script to do it.
Somebody wants to know how many machines running 1809 have checked in to AD in the last 90 days? Get-ADComputer with a really hairy -Filter.
Make Get-Content and Foreach your best friends. They'll let you turn simple things you can do to one AD object into things you can do at scale.
Old-school sysadmin work may be old hat now, but being able to manipulate your environment at scale will always be your step up from L1/L2/L3 work.

I'm still going through InTune trainings, so I'll probably be making the same post with different examples this time next year.

[1] I'm in a super regulated industry. We'll have on-prem AD for years to come, Autopilot maybe in 2025. For my sins, I may be part of setting up an InTune environment for new GxP systems.


e. I do not want to back to school for Biology, Organic Chem, or any of that squishy bullshit, no matter how much sense TIR makes. Nobody can make me.

mllaneza fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Jan 3, 2024

vanity slug
Jul 20, 2010

at helldesk i just joined folks on their smoke break (i don't smoke) and we shot the poo poo, then when a position opened up at the noc they told me to apply for it.

you can learn all the programming languages you want but don't forget about good ol' nepotism.

Collateral Damage
Jun 13, 2009

It would be curious to see how people's impression of what is obsolete in the IT world differs based on if they work in a company where IT is also their product, or one where IT is a tool to deliver another product.

ziasquinn
Jan 1, 2006

Fallen Rib
https://github.com/bregman-arie/devops-exercises

seems interesting for getting your feet wet at least, tokin

***

last night I set up and plugged in a docker openai whisper endpoint on my home server for my Obsidian notebook to utilize for speech to text instead of paying openai pennies to use their servers.

works great!!

Gonna see if I can start using it to automatically feed shows from jellyfin and generating subtitles ... could be sick

johnny park
Sep 15, 2009

Handsome Ralph
Sep 3, 2004

Oh boy, posting!
That's where I'm a Viking!


guppy
Sep 21, 2004

sting like a byob

Collateral Damage posted:

It would be curious to see how people's impression of what is obsolete in the IT world differs based on if they work in a company where IT is also their product, or one where IT is a tool to deliver another product.

I think this is a major factor, yeah. In my opinion the tech industry frequently forgets that non-tech industries exist.

mattfl
Aug 27, 2004

guppy posted:

I think this is a major factor, yeah. In my opinion the tech industry frequently forgets that non-tech industries exist.

Hell even here at the hospital we still have a full data center of on prem servers and that goes for the 75+ hospitals in our system. That doesn't include in main data center at corporate with hundreds of on prem servers. We still have a team of traditional "sys admins" that work on nothing but on prem servers. I'm looking at a team of 20 of them in our org.

The Iron Rose
May 12, 2012

:minnie: Cat Army :minnie:

Collateral Damage posted:

It would be curious to see how people's impression of what is obsolete in the IT world differs based on if they work in a company where IT is also their product, or one where IT is a tool to deliver another product.

mattfl posted:

Hell even here at the hospital we still have a full data center of on prem servers and that goes for the 75+ hospitals in our system. That doesn't include in main data center at corporate with hundreds of on prem servers. We still have a team of traditional "sys admins" that work on nothing but on prem servers. I'm looking at a team of 20 of them in our org.

Servers and on prem infrastructure obviously aren’t obsolete, but the principals of version control, automation, error budgets, SLIs/SLOs/SLAs, gitops, versioning, CI/CD, application performance monitoring, decoupling of deployments from features, actionable if not automated alerts, autohealing, auto scaling, and the like are all *ideas*, not tools, and ones that can and should be applied whether you work in a SaaS company, or a hospital, or a factory line.

I’m not saying clickops and yolo-ing changes to your ancient fleets of servers are dead guys, or even that they should be. I’m saying that the things that the cloud gives us basically out of the box are often good practices whether your deployment target is a computer you own or a computer you rent. And I’m saying that assuming all else being equal, organizations that adopt these ideas are better situated for success than organizations that do not.


And I’m also saying we should be more open to new ideas as they come, of which the recent pendulum swing back to monolithic application design is an excellent example!

The Iron Rose fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Jan 3, 2024

tokin opposition
Apr 8, 2021

I don't jailbreak the androids, I set them free.

WATCH MARS EXPRESS (2023)
My coworker closed a ticket about getting popups after the user did a quick scan in Windows defender. didn't even ask what popups she got or when it happened or anything. Just closed the ticket without telling anyone or making sure nothing leaked. It's like watching a toddler play IT

I'll respond to y'all's posts in more details later but this is the senior it technician as of this year.

Rhymenoserous
May 23, 2008

tokin opposition posted:

My coworker closed a ticket about getting popups after the user did a quick scan in Windows defender. didn't even ask what popups she got or when it happened or anything. Just closed the ticket without telling anyone or making sure nothing leaked. It's like watching a toddler play IT

I'll respond to y'all's posts in more details later but this is the senior it technician as of this year.

Our entire helpdesk are basically a pack of helpless bunnies who don’t know how to do anything unless I wander down from my mountain and explicitly show them.

And anything I do show them becomes the magic fix of the month for every unrelated problem. I wish I could record instances of them flushing the dns cache on every pc they touch. It’s like the second Great War is over and these guys are building the poo poo out of wicker airplanes in hopes that the cases of beans will come back to their little islands.

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003


The Iron Rose posted:

Servers and on prem infrastructure obviously aren’t obsolete, but the principals of version control, automation, error budgets, SLIs/SLOs/SLAs, gitops, versioning, CI/CD, application performance monitoring, decoupling of deployments from features, actionable if not automated alerts, autohealing, auto scaling, and the like are all *ideas*, not tools, and ones that can and should be applied whether you work in a SaaS company, or a hospital, or a factory line.

There exists enterprises that don't do their own app development and none of this actually applies.

BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006

I got a ticket escalated to me by helpdesk that went from a tier 1 tech, their supervisor, and their manager all the way to me because they thought some endpoint security software may have been blocking a users internet access. I asked why they thought that as there were NO notes in the ticket. Not a thing, they said, they just didnt know what else it could be because they didnt "see anything wrong with the computer". I had to politely walk them through what ipconfig /all was, what an APIPA address is and what it means, and how to do an ipconfig /release and renew. I'm always polite working with helpdesk, I was once a new IT employee learning everything and anything I could. But good loving lord, do the bare minimum before escalating to us jesus. No notes, no indication that they had done anything besides looking that the wifi was connected.

How that gets through several layers of management is just maddening.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert

Internet Explorer posted:

I promise you there are plenty of people making plenty of money doing Intune/Azure AD. Just because you don't find it interesting doesn't mean it's not interesting to others, a good career path, or even a good stepping stone.

Just a datapoint, I grossed 157K total cash comp last year doing on prem AD. If you specialize in something and find the right company that values that specialization, you can make some good money.


Do not let your skills lapse though, I make a point to stay up to date on modern authentication and all the bits and pieces among other things.

Blurb3947
Sep 30, 2022
MSP interview ate me alive, so many basic questions on things I haven't touched like Cisco and Dell network stuff that I wasn't able to even guess. Doubt they'll want to bring someone into that position with little experience in how much they touch, but maybe I dodged a bullet.

tokin opposition
Apr 8, 2021

I don't jailbreak the androids, I set them free.

WATCH MARS EXPRESS (2023)

Rhymenoserous posted:

Our entire helpdesk are basically a pack of helpless bunnies who don’t know how to do anything unless I wander down from my mountain and explicitly show them.

And anything I do show them becomes the magic fix of the month for every unrelated problem. I wish I could record instances of them flushing the dns cache on every pc they touch. It’s like the second Great War is over and these guys are building the poo poo out of wicker airplanes in hopes that the cases of beans will come back to their little islands.

BaseballPCHiker posted:

I got a ticket escalated to me by helpdesk that went from a tier 1 tech, their supervisor, and their manager all the way to me because they thought some endpoint security software may have been blocking a users internet access. I asked why they thought that as there were NO notes in the ticket. Not a thing, they said, they just didnt know what else it could be because they didnt "see anything wrong with the computer". I had to politely walk them through what ipconfig /all was, what an APIPA address is and what it means, and how to do an ipconfig /release and renew. I'm always polite working with helpdesk, I was once a new IT employee learning everything and anything I could. But good loving lord, do the bare minimum before escalating to us jesus. No notes, no indication that they had done anything besides looking that the wifi was connected.

How that gets through several layers of management is just maddening.

keep in mind that I'm her subordinate and the "tier 1" helpdesk person is giving the magic solutions to the tier 3 and above people.

god drat now i really understand why so many of you were drinking constantly 10-15 years ago

The Iron Rose
May 12, 2012

:minnie: Cat Army :minnie:

The Fool posted:

There exists enterprises that don't do their own app development and none of this actually applies.

If you think none of the above concepts can be applied to domains other than self-developed software you’re living up to your username more than usual.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


tokin opposition posted:

god drat now i really understand why so many of you were drinking constantly 10-15 years ago

were?

Cyks
Mar 17, 2008

The trenches of IT can scar a muppet for life
Wingstop’s Louisiana dry rub and ranch is totally my poo poo and yes I can afford to drop about 70 pounds. The company isn’t really comparable to b dubs but it’s better imo.

Blurb3947 posted:

MSP interview ate me alive, so many basic questions on things I haven't touched like Cisco and Dell network stuff that I wasn't able to even guess. Doubt they'll want to bring someone into that position with little experience in how much they touch, but maybe I dodged a bullet.

Was it a networking position? It’s hard to expect somebody to have experience in all the networking equipment an MSP might support if they don’t force standardizing (they should, but that’s a different discussion) but I do think having a familiarity with Cisco catalyst is important for any network administrator. At minimum they could at least teach you the equivalent commands and workflow for other vendors.

A little more difficult if your knowledge is limited to something like the Unifi GUI.

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Blurb3947
Sep 30, 2022
It was a senior engineer position, which I'm guessing is perfect for someone in a junior position at any other MSP.

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