(Thread IKs:
Roth)
|
Stop telling people to "go to gbs or bss" when u dislike their opinions. You can ignore posts you think are bullshit, or if they're they warrant it, report them to me or ping Roth.
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 18:56 |
|
|
Papercut posted:Yeah for real the sequel trilogy is dramatically better than his work I have not seen rebel moon but snyder has definitely made movies better than the st.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:09
|
|
|
To me the issue is that Disney Star Wars is taking inspiration from Star Wars itself so it's just retelling and referencing its own stories. Star Wars under Lucas was a remix of his various interests into something new. You can see this in a video where they go over ship designs. The OT and PT have them talking about various influences Geoge Lucas had and liked, and thematic reasons for why ships are designed that way. Then they get to the stuff Disney has produced and they can barely say more than "We added some little details to the X-Wing". Rebel Moon wears its influences on its sleeve, but it is also remixing Star Wars and Kurosawa with Warhammer 40K and Heavy Metal to try making something that's uniquely Snyder's take on it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:10
|
|
|
It's like poetry, it rhymes
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:12
|
|
|
The way I do it is that when somebody says it's a homage, they liked the movie, and when they say it's derivative they didn't.  I actually tried to say this earlier but nobody took the bait so I'll try again: Rebel Moon is not particularly Star Wars influenced IMO, I find it MUCH more influenced by late 70s/early 80s Heavy Metal magazines, which would make the "chain of ripoffs" 1930s pulps -> 1950s Science Fiction -> Star Wars -> 1980 Heavy Metal Magazine -> Rebel Moon. Of course you can keep extending in back from 1930s pulps or making it more granular if you like but that's the relevant stuff IMO. So the question is not why Rebel Moon doesn't look like a Star Wars but why Snyder wasn't able to make those extremely niche comics connect and I'll tell you why: nobody read the 1980s Heavy Metal comics for the story. You read it because it had a gorgeous naked babe riding a dragon and shooting a laser gun. A "PG-13 Heavy Metal comic" is an oxymoron. I think that, and excising an hour of character vignettes, is probably why the movie is suffering. I am fully expecting the director's cut of the movie to get much closer to it's source inspiration and therefore improve. It still may not be "good" though. The issue is, of course, that 1980s Heavy Metal is very dated, from a simpler time where getting great art of near-naked gladiator women (I know I keep harping on this, but you have to understand that the Badass Almost Naked Warrior Warrior was a huge thing in that era, for better or worse - mostly worse) in a weird science-fiction setting was enough to sustain monthly teen readership. You can certainly update that and pull a Foundation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCPKoiks7yE) and get some gorgeous man to also run around near-naked to update it, but ultimately it's gonna concern itself with showing cool images of attractive, built people doing "cool poo poo" on alien planets. Heavy Metal very much focused on mixing the violence with the erotic and the great art first and foremost and this had a massive effect on Snyder; in our current era of neo-prudism I'm not sure anyone under the age of 30 is buying. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Jan 4, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:18
|
|
|
I REALLY don't see the 40k influence
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:19
|
|
|
Synder remains effective as his films continue to elicit strong emotional responses after dumping ip.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:25
|
|
|
I might do a movie battle between Rebel Moon and Magnificent Seven. It's easier to do than Seven Samurai because it's shorter but it's also more fresh in my memory (it's on Prime if you have it). Magnificent Seven and Reble Moon has a lot of their characters in the same kind of circumstances too. I think some folks may be setting themselves up for disappointment if they're hoping the real cut fills up the recruitment process. I think it'll flesh out the lead up to them (such as the movie jumping to the group sharing and elevator with Nemesis, skipping over the initial meeting) and jarring things like that but the rapid-fire back-to-back recruitment is just an aspect of this kind of film. Just as a quick example that ties those two films together: Robert Vaughn's character in Magnificent Seven has the same recruitment process as Djimon Hounsou's character in Rebel Moon - they're both in not good situations and join up after a quick conversation. One lured by 20 dollars, the other with revenge. People complained how brief the encounter with Titus since he has an established level of importance the other recruits don't have but I don't think we'll get much backstory on him until the second film where it makes more sense to draw parallels between the first time he lead people against the empire, now leading these farmers against it and the lessons he learned from the mistakes he made. I theorize that because the editing in the first half of the film's action sequences cut out the violence it creates this disconnect between the film and the viewer. Your brain notices these weird gaps and it stays that way for the entire film. What are simply genre conventions become holes and what you think may be missing was never there to begin with. But there are also obvious things missing so it reinforces that feeling and leaves you cold. Jimbot fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Jan 4, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:32
|
|
|
I think it's potentially an interesting conversation comparing the Rebel Moon: Bad Cut to the Star Wars sequel trilogy, both in terms of them taking influence from the older SWs and also in terms of how well they do as a modern space operas. I think it's maybe a bit too close to release to discuss that in very good faith, especially with the amount of thinly veiled trolling going on, but I do think there's an interesting dynamic there. For my take, I would say it's definitely not remotely as sloppy as RoS, which has the same problems with editing, but has even more ridiculous plot points ("sold you to save you" plus the knife map beats any silly/dumb thing in RM for sure) but is maybe saved on an personal level by having pre-established characters that people are invested in. TFA is a harder comparison because it banks so hard on nostalgia and in fact hews extremely closely to New Hope so while it is probably better it is so in a cynical way? Would love to see opinions on TLJ vs RM:BC because TLJ is probably the most different from other Star Wars while still being a Star War.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:32
|
|
|
YggdrasilTM posted:I REALLY don't see the 40k influence There are very strong aesthetic influences in certain visual designs and naming practices. The alien bartender with candles on his shoulders stands out, as does the commissar-like antagonist, the use of Roman/latin names and titles, the designs of the people working in that weird teleportation chamber are very reminiscent of the adeptus mechanicus, etc etc.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:33
|
|
|
Like, to bolster my point, here's some random early 1980s Heavy Metal Magazine covers. If you've never seen this stuff and are sensitive to male gaze/pinup stuff, don't click the link. https://shop.heavymetal.com/collections/back-issues It's important to realize that this is is real formative years stuff for Snyder; when he had enough clout to make his own movie he made Sucker Punch, which is a direct response to this sort of thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:33
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:I might do a movie battle between Rebel Moon and Magnificent Seven. It's easier to do than Seven Samurai because it's shorter but it's also more fresh in my memory (it's on Prime if you have it). Magnificent Seven and Reble Moon has a lot of their characters in the same kind of circumstances too. I think some folks may be setting themselves up for disappointment if they're hoping the real cut fills up the recruitment process. I think it'll flesh out the lead up to them (such as the movie jumping to the group sharing and elevator with Nemesis, skipping over the initial meeting) and jarring things like that but the rapid-fire back-to-back recruitment is just an aspect of this kind of film. My problem is less the recruitment and more how the characters are a giant nothing. I don't want flashbacks I want characters that are not 'just there'. TMS has a lot of character interactions, be it between the Seven, between them and the village, or between them and the bad guys. Again, this is half of the story so I hope there is something more in the second part. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jan 4, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:41
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:There are very strong aesthetic influences in certain visual designs and naming practices. The alien bartender with candles on his shoulders stands out, as does the commissar-like antagonist, the use of Roman/latin names and titles, the designs of the people working in that weird teleportation chamber are very reminiscent of the adeptus mechanicus, etc etc. That bartender struck me more as a JRPG/Dark Souls boss. But also just a hilariously bad design for a bartender.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:50
|
|
|
YggdrasilTM posted:My problem is less the recruitment and more how the characters are a giant nothing. I don't want flashbacks I want characters that are not 'just there'. TMS has a lot of character interactions, be it between the Seven, between them and the village, or between them and the bad guys. That's the thing I'd point out in a theoretical movie battle. Rebel Moon runs up to them arriving at the village. The Magnificent Seven isn't part one of two; until they arrived at the village the seven barely talk to each other. It's Chris, Vinn and Harry who have the most interactions outside of Chico who comes and goes. In Rebel Moon Kora is Chris and the villagers rolled into one character. Gunnar filled the villagers and Chico roles and that's why Kora talks to him the most. Telling him her backstory and taking him out into the universe. It's why he's in focus for almost all the reaction shots - this stuff is new to him. It's interesting because Rebel Moon combines a lot of these archetypes into singular characters. graventy posted:That bartender struck me more as a JRPG/Dark Souls boss. But also just a hilariously bad design for a bartender. Now this is just prejudiced. What, a person can't wear their candle mantle while serving drinks? Get the hell out of here with that nonsense!
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:52
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:I’m not arguing that it isn’t derivative, but I don’t really see a meaningful difference between the derivativeness of one vs the other. They’re both derivative in their own ways, and there’s nothing wrong with that in itself. Ok, you need to be more clear what you’re talking about. The aesthetic of Rebel Moon is nothing like Star Wars at all; it’s way further into ‘high fantasy’ territory. Just look at how they depict the concept of a giant spider monster, as an example. Even Lord Of The Rings has a more scientifically plausible giant spider, but that’s obviously not the point because Rebel Moon is just straight-up like ‘yeah this is basically a centaur’. The aliens are closer to orcs, and there’s a dang gryphon right out of Harry Potter. If you think of Dex’s Diner from Star Wars 2, that’s at the extreme end of the Star Wars aesthetic but still recognizably a retro diner as filtered through upscale, urban Star Wars. The farm at the start of Rebel Moon goes way further, being ‘just’ an old European-style farmstead with automatic Star Trek doors added in almost as a joke. In that specific case, it’s because the characters are some kind of space-conservatives who deliberately constructed their village that way - but it’s fairly consistent across the rest of the film. The arena looks like The Coliseum, and so-on. The characters’ distinct planets are more like genres. There are references to Star Wars in the narrative, but they’re overt where they exist. The introduction to Gryphon dude is ripped directly from the podracing subplot with baby Anakin from Star Wars 1, and everyone knows that Hunnam is playing a variant of Han Solo. However, this has nothing to do with the film’s aesthetic, except insofar as both it and Star Wars included references back to gladiator movies, westerns, etc. The overall narrative of the film is unlike any Star Wars movie - except maybe Star Wars 9, when it collapses into poo poo in the edited second half. Rebel Moon: The Netflix Cut Part 1 looks like a “putting a team together” movie but, as I believe I’ve noted earlier, it uses the new recruits as macguffins rather than as actual characters. And of course the plot isn’t like any Star Wars movie either. Even the closest example, Rogue One, was about three characters going on a mission behind enemy lines and picking up a few stragglers along the way. Rebel Moon’s not that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:53
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ok, you need to be more clear what you’re talking about. I literally have no clue what you're talking about or why you're responding to me with your post. Nothing you wrote contradicts or contends with what I said: that Rebel Moon has aesthetic differences from Star Wars, but I don't consider those differences to be enough to fully distinguish it as non-derivative of Star Wars, or that one isn't derivative while the other is.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 18:58
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:I literally have no clue what you're talking about or why you're responding to me with your post. Nothing you wrote contradicts or contends with what I said: that Rebel Moon has aesthetic differences from Star Wars, but I don't consider those differences to be enough to fully distinguish it as non-derivative of Star Wars, or that one isn't derivative while the other is. If aesthetic differences don’t count, what does as far as defining a work derivative or not? It’s a visual medium after all. Also do you not see levels in how derivative something is?
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 19:11
|
|
|
checkplease posted:If aesthetic differences don’t count, what does as far as defining a work derivative or not? It’s a visual medium after all. I think you're all reading into what I'm saying. Rebel Moon is derivative of many works, including Star Wars. The Force Awakens is also derivative of many works, including Star Wars (and moreso, A New Hope). I don't care to get into a pointless argument about the distinction between something that is more or less derivative than something else. There is nothing inherently wrong with or inherently good about being derivative. What matters to me is if the end result is successful in its attempt to tell a fun story.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 19:15
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:I literally have no clue what you're talking about or why you're responding to me with your post. Nothing you wrote contradicts or contends with what I said: that Rebel Moon has aesthetic differences from Star Wars, but I don't consider those differences to be enough to fully distinguish it as non-derivative of Star Wars, or that one isn't derivative while the other is. You wrote that the aesthetic isn't different enough to fully distinguish it from Star Wars, but the aesthetic is kinda extremely different. I've mostly pointed out the production design, but other things like the shot choices and the controversial LENS are unlike Star Wars. There's no dialogue in Star Wars that's shot and edited like the Jimmy scene. So, what are you referring to, then? Because it doesn't seem to be the plot or narrative either.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 19:21
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:You wrote that the aesthetic isn't different enough to fully distinguish it from Star Wars, but the aesthetic is kinda extremely different. I've mostly pointed out the production design, but other things like the shot choices and the controversial LENS are unlike Star Wars. There's no dialogue in Star Wars that's shot and edited like the Jimmy scene. In the post that you initially quoted, I said "I don’t consider the aesthetic or lore differences to be wide enough to distinguish it as anything remarkable", not "I don't think it's visually different from Star Wars".
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 19:25
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:I think you're all reading into what I'm saying. Fair enough if they don’t matter to you.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 19:29
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:In the post that you initially quoted, I said "I don’t consider the aesthetic or lore differences to be wide enough to distinguish it as anything remarkable", not "I don't think it's visually different from Star Wars". Right, and that would mean that you consider the aesthetics and "lore" of the movies are 'too similar'. When asked what you mean by 'similar lore', though, you repeatedly dodge the question. In this case, you are also writing that the differences are 'unremarkable' and therefore you won't remark on them either.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 19:30
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Right, and that would mean that you consider the aesthetics and "lore" of the movies are 'too similar'. When asked what you mean by 'similar lore', though, you repeatedly dodge the question. Again, I think you're reading into what I'm saying. You're taking my statement of "I like pancakes" and comprehending it as "so you hate waffles?". I don't think the movie is remarkable, as in the textbook definition meaning worthy of attention. I didn't say the differences aren't vast enough, I said the differences that are there don't make the end product remarkable. Please, try to interpret posts charitably.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 19:33
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:I didn't say the differences aren't vast enough, I said the differences that are there don't make the end product remarkable. Ok, being as charitable as possible here. The only pertinent difference between these phrases: "The differences aren't vast enough". and "The differences that are there don't make the end product remarkable." is the concept of "enough" - implying that no amount of difference [from Star Wars' aesthetics and lore] could make the film remarkable to you. There cannot be enough. But, then, we can go back to the earlier post, where you say the exact opposite: "I’ll give Rebel Moon some credit for telling a modified version of that story, but I don’t consider the aesthetic or lore differences to be wide enough to distinguish it as anything remarkable." So, to summarize: "I don’t consider the ... differences to be wide enough". and "The differences aren't vast enough." those are two similar phrases, but only one of those is your true opinion, you claim. So what's going on here? Are you quibbling over the difference between 'width' and 'vastness' as metaphorical distance, or are you just not in control of your thoughts and actions?
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 19:53
|
|
|
I'm done responding to this pointless back and forth where you misinterpret what I write, and then shift tactics, respond with several paragraphs and demand I rebut your new points. It's tedious and meaningless and going no where, and it bores me.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 19:54
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:I'm done responding to this pointless back and forth where you misinterpret what I write, and then shift tactics, respond with several paragraphs and demand I rebut your new points. It's tedious and meaningless and going no where, and it bores me. I am the ultimate killing machine. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 19:59
|
|
|
Verisimilidude posted:Please, try to interpret posts charitably. So what I think is causing some confusion/frustration here is that what you are effectively trying to say is "derivation is not a meaningful metric to judge a film by" but instead of saying that your first post was only engaging in comparisons of the derivativeness of RM vs TFA and then you largely never backed down from that point. To use your own analogy: sure you said "I like pancakes" which doesn't automatically mean "I hate waffles" but you did so by replying to a debate about pancakes vs waffles which made everyone think you might be engaging with the debate. Then you also kept saying "I don't think there's a meaningful distinction between pancakes and waffles, but just want to also be clear again that I like pancakes"
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 20:22
|
|
|
sorry to dogpile but also your statement is really broad, more so after clarifications, and I think people are arguing in an attempt to hook on to something Star Wars famously influenced almost all mainstream Western media for like the last half-century... that's a lot of derivation! e: and while you feel like "derivative" has no positive or negative connotations, I think the original use of it was in a pejorative sense which is how most people read it! Lt. Danger fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Jan 4, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 21:00
|
|
|
checkplease posted:Force awakens is the most derivative sequel. It’s got good music and looks nice but why were we ok with another Death Star but planet size and another empire but new name again. Does it have Jimmy, though? I liked it, but I didn't love it. I hope to love the director's cut, and the sequel. The last 30-40 minutes of this movie fucks. Until that point it's a long series of character introductions, and thin ones. I only feel like I really know Kora, Gunnar, and kinda Kai. Oh, and Darrian was great, for how little we got of him. Everyone else is kinda there, and silent after their intros. I was hoping for a lot more of Titus. Again, I have high hopes for the longer cut and sequel. But while I liked this, I didn't love it like I hoped to. Decent intro, though. checkplease posted:The dreadnaught can just bomb the surface with its cannons, similar to warships of today and takes time. The one time we see it used, it destroys anything habitable extremely fast. I'd say it's comparable. But only comparable, not a direct rip or anything. I agree that calling this movie "basically Star Wars" is wrong (outside of the obvious lightsabers, but whatever, those were cool, so I'll allow it). It mostly felt like a unique world, that I want to explore more. I just hope we get a chance to. So far it just feels surface level of a potentially impressive universe.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 21:34
|
|
|
Papercut posted:I tend to enjoy things and not tear down art The Rise of Skywalker is not art. It's commercial fodder. There's a difference!
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 21:43
|
|
|
Papercut posted:Yeah for real the sequel trilogy is dramatically better than his work That said, I would never say The Rise of Skywalker is the worst movie I've ever seen though. That's just dumb. Producer driven, commercial fodder has its place in entertainment and I can acknowledge effort and passion when I see it even among the blockbuster tentpole, box office driven genre. What I say gently caress TROS, what I mean is I really don't like the studio politics that led to TROS ending up being this sort of reactionary film to TLJ's divisive reception. Hope that clears this up for you. [edit] grammar teagone fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jan 4, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 21:48
|
|
|
teagone posted:The Rise of Skywalker is not art. It's commercial fodder. There's a difference! What about artistic fodder?
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 21:50
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:What about artistic fodder? Being sincere when I say I'd likely vibe with most "artistic fodder", i.e., I guess you could described that in one way as movies with strong visuals but mediocre character and plotting. Rebel Moon's Netflix cut could be labeled artistic fodder maybe, lmao. If I find the visual language of a film interesting/pretty, I'd probably enjoy it on some level even if I don't find the story too engaging.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 21:56
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:I am the ultimate killing machine. Free SMG
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 22:22
|
|
|
Free SMG Jail MZ
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 22:24
|
|
|
Also I don't know how you can see this and not see the comparison to 40K.  
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 22:32
|
|
|
All these ST defenders making me truly question my sicko status
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 22:32
|
|
|
The coat isn't big enough (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 22:36
|
|
|
I know next to nothing about Warhammer 40k, but I'm very aware of its aesthetic through nerd culture osmosis -- Rebel Moon looks very 40k.Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Rebel Moon is not particularly Star Wars influenced IMO, I find it MUCH more influenced by late 70s/early 80s Heavy Metal magazines, which would make the "chain of ripoffs" 1930s pulps -> 1950s Science Fiction -> Star Wars -> 1980 Heavy Metal Magazine -> Rebel Moon. Snyder did say in a press junket interview that the movie is more a loveletter to 70s/80s science fantasy and does cite Star Wars for the obvious marketing angle, but also namedrops Excalibur (because of course) and Conan the Barbarian (an evident homage because lmao just look at Tarak  , the Bloodaxe gang warpaint styling, and a character named Milius).
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 22:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 18:56 |
|
|
speaking of 40k, someone pointed out earlier that "Issa" is pretty close to the Arabic name for Jesus; I don't speak Arabic and can't really speak to it myself but it's also just a breath away from "Isha," the Eldar goddess of Life in Warhammer 40k -- the last survivor of her family, and still alive but a prisoner of the god of disease, who she engages in subtle rebellion against by divinely inspiring cures in the minds of doctors and healers
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2024 22:43
|
|
