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VoicesCanBe posted:From what I remember Civ doesn't have an economic victory condition, right? It has technology but nothing explicitly tied to economics. That seems like a pretty silly oversight. its called civilization not dollars
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Jan 10, 2024 20:27
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skooma512 posted:lol the diplomatic victory. Ok so you've somehow managed to create a power bloc and can just make the world vote you as the winner. I always turn that one off because it's so loving stupid. this works better in alpha centauri because you're forcing six people to pledge fealty instead of the entire world
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Jan 10, 2024 20:36
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VoicesCanBe posted:From what I remember Civ doesn't have an economic victory condition, right? It has technology but nothing explicitly tied to economics. That seems like a pretty silly oversight. Space requires industry. Alpha Centauri has the cornering the credit market wincon.
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Jan 10, 2024 20:38
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the economy is but a means to conquer through some other method. there should be a cabal victory condition where you use spies to infiltrate and control other countries without conquering them
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Jan 10, 2024 20:48
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in endless legend money is literally magic and if you get enough you can magic your way to ascendancy. I have no idea how that maps to ideology but it’s certainly novel.
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Jan 10, 2024 20:57
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skooma512 posted:lol the diplomatic victory. Ok so you've somehow managed to create a power bloc and can just make the world vote you as the winner. I always turn that one off because it's so loving stupid. Diplomatic victory is great. In Alpha Centauri you need 3/4s of the total population to vote for you and factions can disagree and start a war to stop you. If your power bloc has that much of an advantage then you've basically won already you're just skipping the mopping up step. There are a few ways to cheese it a bit, using the legalistic/diplomatic fuckery of the UN Peacekeepers and the psychically-assisted diplomacy of the Empath Guild. Best Friends posted:in endless legend money is literally magic and if you get enough you can magic your way to ascendancy. I have no idea how that maps to ideology but it’s certainly novel. Dust is nanomagic/nanotechnology. On a related note, there is one victory type I would like to see. You should be able win by control of strategic resources. Specifically maintaining a total monopoly on a single resource (like Spice) or having overall control of 2/3s of total strategic resources.
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Jan 10, 2024 21:24
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atelier morgan posted:germany is the heart of the european project, raised no objection to the us blowing up it's energy imports and is deindustrializing at a double digit percent rate The apparatuses that physically maintain control over populations will have to fall apart or become so weak that a population raised completely devoid of the bread and circuses that once kept their parents/grandparents docile and loyal forms various militias that break the decrepit back of what used to be their government and then form a new one, presumably opening itself up to BRICS investment since the remaining western nations will have jack of poo poo to offer. So I suppose technically you are right: There is no way the governments that currently stand will allow major change, and any situation where the land they occupy turns a new leaf on China basically requires the country to fall apart and be retaken by force from within by it's proletariat. EDIT: Given how fast various governments have been hollowing out their ability to even enforce their ridiculous control elsewhere, it may be sooner in some countries than one thinks. It will probably happen from the outside in first though, so starting with Africa, South America, various parts of Asia/Oceania, then slowly working into Europe east to west, and North America south to north. Likely America, France, UK, Canada and Australia are last. Any order to them is difficult to discern though, besides America probably being last. thechosenone has issued a correction as of 21:34 on Jan 10, 2024 |
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Jan 10, 2024 21:30
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Zodium posted:deng saved the world.
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Jan 10, 2024 22:17
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The Oldest Man posted:Speak of the Taiwanese nationalism myth-making devil and he shall appear lol goddamn. The tone is just about what we were joking about too eh?
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Jan 10, 2024 23:08
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VoicesCanBe posted:From what I remember Civ doesn't have an economic victory condition, right? It has technology but nothing explicitly tied to economics. That seems like a pretty silly oversight. No, but Alpha Centauri did. It was the cost to mind control the remaining bases. I guess you could compare that to the cost for the US to buy the loyalty of the elite in every country. We've already got Europe.
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Jan 10, 2024 23:16
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Frosted Flake posted:lol goddamn. The tone is just about what we were joking about too eh? yeah right down to quote:On the other side are those who feel deeply Taiwanese. They see Beijing as yet another colonising foreign power, like Chiang and the Japanese before him. colonialism! means! whatever! we! saaayyyy quote:There are also 600,000 or so indigenous peoples who trace their ancestry back thousands of years. quote:Lōa Ēng-hôa began learning Taiwanese about five years ago. Now he only speaks in Taiwanese, or English, but refuses to speak in Mandarin. imperialialmalisms quote:When they travel abroad, they say they are from Taiwan. "We do not want people to think we are from China." As opposed to the natural state of those places which is to be carved up for parts like a loving ham by the British The entire Atlantic article is even more of a lol but this part especially quote:A struggle between autocracy and democracy is playing out over the 100-mile strait that separates Taiwan from the Chinese mainland. And at the moment, a peaceful resolution appears improbable, perhaps even impossible. On one side is a Communist regime determined to assert its power on the world stage as its difficulties mount at home; on the other is a vibrant democratic society that has grown secure in its identity and desperate to preserve its freedom. just mainstreaming the notion that any kind of peaceful status quo is impossible as hard as i loving can while i beat the drum for war being good actually
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Jan 10, 2024 23:28
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The Oldest Man posted:As opposed to the natural state of those places which is to be carved up for parts like a loving ham by the British Somebody show me a graph of the HDI over the last 40 years of Tibet, Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia again?
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Jan 10, 2024 23:31
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taiwan is jefferson davis in 1865 running to puerto rico and setting up a government, claiming that was the real united states of america
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Jan 10, 2024 23:38
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JAY ZERO SUM GAME posted:taiwan is jefferson davis in 1865 running to puerto rico and setting up a government, claiming that was the real united states of america that'd be about as real as any other part of this fake rear end country Orange Devil posted:Somebody show me a graph of the HDI over the last 40 years of Tibet, Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia again? communism is an automatic -10000 on HDI just like "being white" is +10000 on the pandemic readiness index The Oldest Man has issued a correction as of 23:45 on Jan 10, 2024 |
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Jan 10, 2024 23:41
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The Oldest Man posted:yeah right down to Their use of language has all of the same fingerprints all over it. Mandarin is an imperialist language in East Asia but English isn't? Nobody pushed back on that?
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Jan 10, 2024 23:47
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zetamind2000 posted:this works better in alpha centauri because you're forcing six people to pledge fealty instead of the entire world Alpha Centauri's endings rule because on anything other than the one where you actually solve the main problem (that the planet you are on is a sleeping god which is starting to wake up), they all end with kind of an uncertain and inconclusive tone, like, sure, you've technically united humanity, but you haven't really saved human civilization yet, you have at most just bought time for it.
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Jan 10, 2024 23:56
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Frosted Flake posted:Their use of language has all of the same fingerprints all over it. English is the mother tongue of the East Asian Democracian Peoples
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Jan 10, 2024 23:59
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atlanticists are fuckin wild man
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Jan 11, 2024 00:06
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The Oldest Man posted:yeah right down to Teaching liberals the words imperialism and colonialism has had drastic consequences
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Jan 11, 2024 00:11
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Once they got ahold of "oligarch" all bets were off.
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Jan 11, 2024 00:27
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Tying this to the Ukraine thread because gosh it's so interesting how grassroots prodemocracy activists are the ones who discovered the distinctive memory of Taiwan as definitely not China, and maybe Japanese occupation wasn't so bad: Before the emergence of the democracy movement in the late 1970s (Ngo, 1993), Taiwan had one official history which served legitimizing the rule of the ruling party, the Nationalist Party. According to this version, the government ruling on the island of Taiwan was the true government of whole China. Taiwan claimed to be the place where authentic Chinese culture was preserved and exhibited at the time when the communist government’s campaigns were eradicating this culture in mainland China (Hamlish, 1995). Museums and school curricula propagated the Nationalist version of history. The government held ceremonies commemorating events fitting to this history. To make Taiwan look more like northern China and less like Japan which had ruled Taiwan before the Nationalists took over in 1945, the Taiwanese saw their own heritage demolished or reconstructed to fit better to the Nationalist ideal of Chinese culture (Allen, 2012; Johnson, 1994). This history was neglectful of local Taiwanese experiences. Problematically, many narratives legitimating the Nationalist rule had taken place in China, not in Taiwan which was then under the Japanese rule. In terms of historiography, the democracy movement eroded the old orthodoxy in two ways. First, the established history became challenged by the independence movement with a new interpretation changing the locus of the historical subject from China to Taiwan. This approach still advocated unitary history with nationalistic overtones, but its nation was Taiwan, not China. It questioned official history used as a Nationalist nation-building tool by using counter-memory (as defined by Weedon and Jordan, 2012).  It claimed that for the majority who had lived in Taiwan already under the Japanese rule (1895–1945), Taiwan was essentially separate from China due to its history. Nationalist China was presented as only one of the colonizers, far inferior to the Japanese who were acclaimed for modernizing Taiwan. The democracy movement helped consolidating the Taiwan-centred focus on history and, when the opposition party gained power (Chao and Johnson, 2000), it started to institutionalize this version of history. This challenge to the former Nationalist interpretation was often played out through divisive partisan struggles over spatial names, school books and educational programmes (Chen, 2005; Law, 2002; Taylor, 2010).Many specific movements belonging to the democracy movement, such as the labour and human rights movements , began to collect specific memories of ordinary Taiwanese which helped undermine the Nationalist orthodoxy and supporting the alternative interpretation. Writing labour history served building class consciousness among workers founding new independent unions, but also challenged the Nationalist Party as the owner or ally of many exploitative businesses. Even more corroding to the Nationalist legitimacy were the memories of political persecution under its rule. The democracy movement revived the memory of the people the Nationalist government had killed in the 228 Incident in 1947 to suppress political discontent. Its demands that these memories become memorialized and included in national history caused a heated political controversy (Simon, 2003). Now, what during the democracy movement were ‘counter-memories’ (Hirsch and Smith, 2002) of people ignored and silenced in official histories have become ‘postmemories’ (Hirsch, 2008) which link later generations to traumatic memories they have not experienced themselves. There are now two memorial museums devoted to the 228 Incident in Taipei alone, along with a memorial park and several memorial monuments and placards.e: The independence movement, seeking to establish a pronouncedly non-Chinese identity simultaneously through the indigenous population and the Japanese rule, ignores that for many aboriginal tribes, the Japanese era marked the beginning of direct state control and systematic policies of relocation and eradication of languages and customs (Eskildsen, 2005; Simon, 2010). In social movement contexts, many aborigines still cherish the memory of their battles against the Japanese army and blame the contemporary relocation policies for continuing the long list of policies to take over tribal ancestral lands commenced by the Japanese. The interpretation of Japanese colonialism as benevolent by the independence movement has trivialized the claims of victim movements demanding apology or reparation for injustices suffered under the Japanese war machine, including the movements demanding justice for sexual slavery of so-called ‘comfort women’ and for Taiwanese soldiers enshrined as Japanese war heroes against their relatives’ wishes. Aborigines make up a big percentage of members in these victim movements. Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 00:37 on Jan 11, 2024 |
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Jan 11, 2024 00:31
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thechosenone posted:The apparatuses that physically maintain control over populations will have to fall apart or become so weak that a population raised completely devoid of the bread and circuses that once kept their parents/grandparents docile and loyal forms various militias that break the decrepit back of what used to be their government and then form a new one, presumably opening itself up to BRICS investment since the remaining western nations will have jack of poo poo to offer. Yeah, I think the populations of Europe are actually less captured than the US public and they will feel the day-to-day strain of a Chinese embargo quicker. The French elite may be thoroughly aligned with the US, but their people will take to the streets a lot quicker. While the US has forced Europe to accept conditions detrimental to it in the struggle versus Russia, there are plenty of people in Europe who do feel that Russia is a valid security concern to me (stupidly to me, but it isn't just the elites). There are plenty in the public that think the higher energy costs and economic disruptions are acceptable costs to confront Russia. OTOH, an embargo vs China would force the public to accept much worse conditions for concerns that are tangential to them. The US would have their tame press trot out all kinds of wild reasons why the EU must confront China, but I don't think it would find the same purchase as Russian paranoia. I think expecting them to accept economic ruin for vague geopolitical maneuvering on the other side of the planet is a huge ask. That doesn't mean that their governments would topple in glorious communist revolutions that would align with China. US intelligence agencies are all over right-wing fascist parties in Europe but that's a tiger they have by the tail. It can turn on them and call for a nationalist driven foreign policy that doesn't have to be friendly to China but can still avoid committing economic suicide. As it is there is plenty of political chaos simmering below the surface in Europe over the confrontation with Russia and I don't think you can make any assumptions about their populations even if the elites are bought. These are not placid Americans with delusions of quiet peaceful demonstrations solving all their problems. They will take to the streets in violent confrontations with the state with much more zeal and political violence is not as far from the mainstream. Their elites also have a much more tenuous control of culture, politics, and media then their American equivalents even aided by the US intelligence services. I'm also talking about continental Europe here. The entire anglosphere are just US colonies now. UK decided it's not part of Europe and is pretty rabid about being the Far Eastern America (Japan is Far Western America as its time to start shifting the language to accept glorious American geographic centrality). Celebrating that with an NFL franchise is incredibly funny. The en-soccer-ication is well on its way.
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Jan 11, 2024 00:31
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Halloween Jack posted:Once they got ahold of "oligarch" all bets were off. Russian oligarchs are interfering in our elections! Surely no American billionaires are to blame, it’s all Russia.
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Jan 11, 2024 00:41
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My anecdotal experience Re: Taiwan vs Ukraine is that even back to the 90s long before the confrontation started people from Ukraine identified themselves as Ukrainian and not Russian in any way. OTOH, it was pretty common to hear people say they were Chinese from Taiwan or Hong Kong (before the unification). I think that's emblematic of the differences and its why the protests in Hong Kong struggled despite people there sometimes considering themselves special compared to mainlanders. Being stuck up about where you are from doesn't necessarily translate to risking life and limb for it. I don't think Long Islanders would die to preserve their special (awful) geographic culture.
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Jan 11, 2024 00:46
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skooma512 posted:Russian oligarchs are interfering in our elections! After all we did to stay out of their domestic politics, it's dirty pool to do us back like that.
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Jan 11, 2024 01:04
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Fascism is good actually!!!! - every DC-backed pro democracy org when you prod them enough
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Jan 11, 2024 01:06
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lmao at specifically setting the cut off date the year Japan annexed the island through conquest as when the taiwanese developed a national consciousness separate from china
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Jan 11, 2024 02:16
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our defense secratary hosed himself at a Holiday party this year.....
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Jan 11, 2024 02:17
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Mister Bates posted:Alpha Centauri's endings rule because on anything other than the one where you actually solve the main problem (that the planet you are on is a sleeping god which is starting to wake up), they all end with kind of an uncertain and inconclusive tone, like, sure, you've technically united humanity, but you haven't really saved human civilization yet, you have at most just bought time for it. Yeah Alpha Centauri probably has a canonical plot and a canonical ending, it's great https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WMG/SidMeiersAlphaCentauri goes into some detail about it.
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Jan 11, 2024 02:23
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yellowcar posted:lmao at specifically setting the cut off date the year Japan annexed the island through conquest as when the taiwanese developed a national consciousness separate from china Strangely the Ukrainians also developed a national consciousness separate from Russia in 1941. Isn't that a puzzler. I was wrong, they are definitely going to at least try the Ukraine playbook. I don't know how this will play in Taiwan, but ... I was wrong.
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Jan 11, 2024 02:51
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I'm not terribly surprised, the US loves to use and re-use the same general playbook and tactics, even when they don't or actively backfire I really don't think the project of forming a distinct Taiwanese identity that hates China ala Galician Ukrainian will work out though. VoicesCanBe has issued a correction as of 03:10 on Jan 11, 2024 |
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Jan 11, 2024 03:08
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My pet theory is the color revolution has never worked outside of the Christianity zones. CIA is better off going back to their hard power coups to overthrow disobedient third world leaders. Trying to keep pushing that color revolution xyz spring bubble tea alliance playbook is the libs drinking their own Kool aid.
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Jan 11, 2024 03:30
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stephenthinkpad posted:My pet theory is the color revolution has never worked outside of the Christianity zones. CIA is better off going back to their hard power coups to overthrow disobedient third world leaders. I’m trying to think of where I read this but cloaked in more academic euphemism. I think the book on post soviet colour revolutions lamented that the ones in Central Asia have never worked. But why would that be the case? What do you think?
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Jan 11, 2024 03:38
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FF what’s your take on that battle in the Red Sea from yesterday? Is it common to engage F18s and like four destroyers at once?
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Jan 11, 2024 03:45
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Frosted Flake posted:I’m trying to think of where I read this but cloaked in more academic euphemism. It's just a conclusion I drew after reading up on Arab Spring, and follow the HK unrest closely in 19. There are just some deep cultural gaps between the Christianity civilization and the other civilization zones that make the NGO actions very hard to translate to a different civilization. Iran's unrest after the death of Mahsa Amini but petering out in the end reinforced my belief.
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Jan 11, 2024 03:58
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Frosted Flake posted:I’m trying to think of where I read this but cloaked in more academic euphemism. There were no Central Asian Nazis for the US to foster and support among a diaspora Kazakh or Tajik community
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Jan 11, 2024 04:07
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Mandel Brotset posted:FF what’s your take on that battle in the Red Sea from yesterday? Is it common to engage F18s and like four destroyers at once? The what now
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Jan 11, 2024 04:08
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eh, arab spring yielded a pretty pliant/compromised egypt. plus isis was created during arab spring and used to scare white people pretty good, extending support for the terror wars by a few years. i guess it's questionable whether that plus destroying oil production/raising oil prices in a bunch of countries and selling a bunch more weapons/mercenary contracts was a net benefit for the rich. I'd say probably.
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Jan 11, 2024 04:13
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Slavvy posted:The what now from the palestine thread yesterday: Mandel Brotset posted:https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...-uk-iran-rebels
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Jan 11, 2024 04:18
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Wonder how many of those it'll take before they run out of ammo and have to go home
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Jan 11, 2024 04:23
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