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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Considering they're bombing targets of the Houthi's, who have attacked civilians and civilian ships (and were repeatedly warned not to), this response is entirely justified. Can you point me to a list of fatalities and injuries caused by Houthis ensuring that Israel-bound shipping is disrupted while it perpetrates a genocide?
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Jan 12, 2024 09:53
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Can you point me to a list of fatalities and injuries caused by Houthis ensuring that Israel-bound shipping is disrupted while it perpetrates a genocide? What proportion of the targets they hit were Israel bound?
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Jan 12, 2024 09:58
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If America cares about civilian casualties they're attacking the wrong country.
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Jan 12, 2024 10:02
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Alchenar posted:What proportion of the targets they hit were Israel bound? I don't think that's necessarily relevant, is it? Whichever ships are sunk, it makes the shipping route to Israel less attractive to suppliers. If I'm at war with Swindon and I target a railway line that carries freight there, my action isn't less effective if the line also carries freight to Didcot.
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Jan 12, 2024 10:04
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Alchenar posted:What proportion of the targets they hit were Israel bound? I'm sure the Houthis will claim it's the great majority. I'm not sure any given percentage is relevant. The aim stated is clear. As far as I know nobody has been hurt through Houthi's actions with regards to shipping. I'm not sure that will be the case with the current US and UK -led actions. E:- looks like 5 Yemenis have been killed and 6 have been injured. https://x.com/cheesemanab/status/1745729674301313110?s=20 Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 10:09
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susan b buffering posted:If America cares about civilian casualties they're attacking the wrong country. They care about the disruption to global trade.
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Jan 12, 2024 10:25
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knox_harrington posted:They care about the disruption to global trade. Then the right thing to do is put pressure on its genocidal proxy. Not risk wider regional conflict and in so doing also kill more people. It's astonishing just how much the US has done in the last few months to lay absolutely bare the modern consensus on international law it worked so hard to create. I can't think of a single period of comparative self-harm for the US in such a short timescale.
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Jan 12, 2024 10:36
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Oh dear me posted:I don't think that's necessarily relevant, is it? Whichever ships are sunk, it makes the shipping route to Israel less attractive to suppliers. Israel only gets about 30% of its cargo through the Red Sea, at most. According to reports, the Houthi have done very little to target Israeli-related ships, instead focusing more on ships from other nation. Including a lot of countries that are fairly sympathetic to Gaza. So it is more like blowing up the railroads that primarily service your allies in order to stop a train that may be going to an enemy. That's why it is obvious this is just regular piracy that they're putting a pretty ideological mask on.
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Jan 12, 2024 11:01
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Kchama posted:Israel only gets about 30% of its cargo through the Red Sea, at most. That's a lot. It would certainly be enough to make the route a valid military target if we were the bombers. I have no idea how easy it would be for the Houthis to target Israeli shipping specifically, though.
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Jan 12, 2024 11:06
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Oh dear me posted:That's a lot. It would certainly be enough to make the route a valid military target if we were the bombers. It's a fair amount, but Houthis hasn't hit Israel's shipping though. That's the problem. As far as I know, they've hit one ship tangentially related to Israel, in that the company that ran it was partially owned by an Israelite shipping magnate, but was travelling from Turkey to India. They claim they attack ships heading to or from Israel or is Israel-flagged, so you'd think they'd have accurate knowledge of the ships and the crew... but there's been little evidence of any such accuracy to their claims.
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Jan 12, 2024 11:15
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Kchama posted:They claim they attack ships heading to or from Israel or is Israel-flagged, so you'd think they'd have accurate knowledge of the ships and the crew... but there's been little evidence of any such accuracy to their claims. I wouldn't infer they had accurate targeting abilities from that, no, since anything on a route that goes to or from X can be described as 'heading' to or from X, whether or not that's the origin or destination. I should like to know how easy such targeting actually is, before I draw conclusions from failure. Railway sabotage was one of the most common WW2 resistance actions, which we esteem despite the civilians it killed, with very little concern over how many trains involved were not military or going to Germany etc. And disruption of shipping routes is harder because you can't just attack infrastructure.
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Jan 12, 2024 12:04
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:The Houthis are operating under the responsibility to protect. They're being bombed for daring to attempt to disrupt an ongoing genocide but the allies of the terror state executing the genocide. They're being bombed because they've been opportunistically targeting merchant ships on international trade routes for piracy and trade disruption since long before the current gaza conflict, and probably recently thought they could pull off bigger attacks during israel's aggressive and destabilizing acts. could give them cover for more piracy while playing it up as an effort to assist Palestinians (while not actually meaningfully giving a gently caress about what ships they could get at, even if they were associated with parties more supportive of Palestinians)
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Jan 12, 2024 12:07
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Darth Walrus posted:An excellent summary from a guy who decided to livetweet it, if you prefer text: Same guy again, this time threading the Israeli response: https://x.com/altymcaltalt3/status/1745735315845746726?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Jan 12, 2024 12:19
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PT6A posted:Judging by the social media I’ve ill-advisedly read, the gambit shall be: “what about the genocide of white farmers that I imagined is happening, South Africa??? What about that, eh???” This is also what US elected officials are going with, too, if Fetterman is anything to go by. Just using literal neo Nazi talking points to defend Israel
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Jan 12, 2024 12:34
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Oh dear me posted:I wouldn't infer they had accurate targeting abilities from that, no, since anything on a route that goes to or from X can be described as 'heading' to or from X, whether or not that's the origin or destination. I should like to know how easy such targeting actually is, before I draw conclusions from failure. What I was getting at is I doubted that they were telling the truth about having any real intel on the ships. Or if they did have accurate knowledge, they haven't been using it, judging by their lack of hits on Israel ships. Railway sabotage really isn't a good comparison though. Since those were, in theory, directed at stopping enemy trains. This would be more like if 99% of the trains the Allies hijacked or blew up were headed from an Allied country to another Allied country, or were completely neutral. That wouldn't be seen as a good military strategy, or even worth the impact on civilians, now would it?
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Jan 12, 2024 12:35
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Kavros posted:They're being bombed because they've been opportunistically targeting merchant ships on international trade routes for piracy and trade disruption since long before the current gaza conflict, and probably recently thought they could pull off bigger attacks during israel's aggressive and destabilizing acts. could give them cover for more piracy while playing it up as an effort to assist Palestinians Ok I've seen this bandied about a bit lately, in what way has Ansarallah engaged in piracy in this spate of attacks? Besides the first container ship they used a helicopter on, they have been launching attacks to disrupt shipping and have not made attempts to steal stuff as I have observed. How have they used these attacks to extract financial gain?
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Jan 12, 2024 12:50
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A big flaming stink posted:Ok I've seen this bandied about a bit lately, in what way has Ansarallah engaged in piracy in this spate of attacks? Besides the first container ship they used a helicopter on, they have been launching attacks to disrupt shipping and have not made attempts to steal stuff as I have observed. Constantly? Like a lot of attacks have been attempted hijacks and thefts. The US Navy attack that blew up three Houthi boats happened because a container ship they were attempting to hijack called for help and the US Navy responded. Heck, the one Israel-related attack I could find was a hijacking, too. Kchama fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 13:02
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Kchama posted:Constantly? Like a lot of attacks have been attempted hijacks and thefts. The US Navy attack that blew up three Houthi boats happened because a container ship they were attempting to hijack called for help and the US Navy responded. In what way have they financially benefited from those attacks, though?
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Jan 12, 2024 13:13
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A big flaming stink posted:In what way have they financially benefited from those attacks, though? How do you think pirates financially benefit when they hijack a ship and take it to their place? They either ransom it back and/or take the stuff on board. They have a bunch of hostages to ransom, too.
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Jan 12, 2024 13:20
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Kchama posted:Railway sabotage really isn't a good comparison though. Since those were, in theory, directed at stopping enemy trains. This would be more like if 99% of the trains the Allies hijacked or blew up were headed from an Allied country to another Allied country, or were completely neutral. That wouldn't be seen as a good military strategy, or even worth the impact on civilians, now would it? No. You said the shipping route carries nearly 30%, not 1%, of Israeli shipping, and I think that that would make it a valid military target if we were doing the bombing. Bombing a route often serves a military purpose even if initial attacks are mostly misses - discouraging neutral countries from using a supply route means you can target more effectively later. I don't say attacking supply routes should be allowed under international law, I just think it historically has been. As an obvious example, the Allied blockade of Germany targeted neutral merchant ships.
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Jan 12, 2024 13:25
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Kchama posted:How do you think pirates financially benefit when they hijack a ship and take it to their place? They either ransom it back and/or take the stuff on board. They have a bunch of hostages to ransom, too. Has Ansarallah engaged in those actions?
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Jan 12, 2024 13:26
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Oh dear me posted:No. You said the shipping route carries nearly 30%, not 1%, of Israeli shipping, and I think that that would make it a valid military target if we were doing the bombing. Bombing a route often serves a military purpose even if initial attacks are mostly misses - discouraging neutral countries from using a supply route means you can target more effectively later. I don't say attacking supply routes should be allowed under international law, I just think it historically has been. As an obvious example, the Allied blockade of Germany targeted neutral merchant ships. 0% of their actions have been against Israeli shipping. I was rounding up because an Israeli partly owned a boat that they hijacked, but that seemed to be more an accident than anything else, as said boat was Bahamas-flagged and heading to India from Turkey. Two countries that are not big-time fans of Israel. Also, the Allied blockade of Germany targetted ships going... to Germany. The Houthi are not attacking ships going to Israel, but passing through a route that contains far more non-Israel shipping than Israel shipping, and have attacked basically zero Israeli ships. Also, I'd be shocked if International Law looked well upon missiling and hijacking civilian ships in an unrelated area. Oh, what's that? International Law told them to knock it the gently caress off and that's why the US and the UK are attacking the Houthi in Yemen? Well, I suspect International Law isn't going to be important in your argument soon. As a note: Attacking civilian shipping like the Houthi have is, in fact, illegal under international law. "Historically" doesn't matter since historically, you could do whatever the gently caress you wanted as long as it was fine under the current international laws. A big flaming stink posted:Has Ansarallah engaged in those actions? Yes...? If they haven't, they are making a mistake taking credit for those actions and not yelling at people doing it in their name. EDIT: Also, probably shouldn't have parked the hijacked ship in a port they controlled if they didn't hijack it... Kchama fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 13:41
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Considering they're bombing targets of the Houthi's, who have attacked civilians and civilian ships (and were repeatedly warned not to), this response is entirely justified. Are you saying the Houthis deserved to get bombed? The five Houthis who were killed, they deserved to die? Please clarify.
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Jan 12, 2024 13:59
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Yeah some of their targets have been vaguely Israel-associated by pure coincidence but their attacks have for the most part been opportunistic and indiscriminate. This was very obviously going to lead to a military response if they kept doing it in spite of warnings. e: apart from the obvious direct benefit of stealing stuff and ransoming people they could also extract other concessions for themselves through this campaign, which is much more plausible than the US turning around and bombing Israel or whatever Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 14:09
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Dr. VooDoo posted:This is also what US elected officials are going with, too, if Fetterman is anything to go by. Just using literal neo Nazi talking points to defend Israel Nah man he's just using "Black on Black crime" except international relations: https://twitter.com/_RichardHall/status/1745532415785791866?t=sJUHyFZpvC-tHdwcaqtD3A&s=19
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Jan 12, 2024 14:39
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"And you are lynching boers"
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Jan 12, 2024 14:43
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The Top G posted:Are you saying the Houthis deserved to get bombed? The five Houthis who were killed, they deserved to die? Please clarify. drat you got em dude
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Jan 12, 2024 14:49
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Well it looks like the Yemen air strikes served the purpose they were intended to do, since we’re all talking about them instead of the absolutely farcical attempt of Israel to present a defense at the ICJ. King’s Counsel tripping over his own dick, shuffling papers about, and naturally three billion (give or take) mentions of Khamas.
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Jan 12, 2024 14:54
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rscott posted:Nah man he's just using "Black on Black crime" except international relations: Telling a bunch of South African lawyers to go back to Africa. Hmmmmmmmm. Not a great look, John! Seriously this dudes staff must have lost a bet or something coming up with this. How is this the best answer they can come up with?
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Jan 12, 2024 15:00
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Oh dear me posted:No. You said the shipping route carries nearly 30%, not 1%, of Israeli shipping, and I think that that would make it a valid military target if we were doing the bombing. Bombing a route often serves a military purpose even if initial attacks are mostly misses - discouraging neutral countries from using a supply route means you can target more effectively later. I don't say attacking supply routes should be allowed under international law, I just think it historically has been. As an obvious example, the Allied blockade of Germany targeted neutral merchant ships.
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Jan 12, 2024 15:12
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Fetterman really clarified with, "maybe the blacks should clean up their own community before criticizing ours" line, huh.
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Jan 12, 2024 15:13
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If the US (or anyone else) cared anything at all about civilians dying they'd stop israel, not the Houthis. The ships they're targeting being israeli or not don't matter, they're not trying to disrupt israel's economy specifically, they're trying to disrupt global trade in order to force international action on Gaza. It is about the genocide of Palestinians, and they are basically the only group on earth sticking their necks out to try and stop the slaughter. They're being bombed because the United States -- at best -- doesn't value Palestinian lives at all, but has an interest in keeping shipping costs low and allowing israel to murder whomever it wants, whenever it wants. The bombings are a message to knock it off and let israel rampage unimpeded. Do the Houthis have a serious moral and ideological stake in stopping the genocide of Palestinians? Probably. They keep telling everyone as much. If you want to be cynical about it, it's also a way to curry favor with the vast majority of Arabs around the world who support Palestine as well as enhance their image as a serious force to be reckoned with. What I am not willing to say is that they're attacking these ships because the Houthis are all nasty savages that love doing piracy and making the products I love from the brands I trust more expensive. This is another instance of "but do you condemn Hamas?" which is a way of saying "I won't even have this discussion with you until you agree that israel's enemies are ontologically evil". e: Timmy Age 6 posted:You could start stopping cars in the street outside your house and dragging the drivers out and claim you're doing it to support Gaza, and you might actually eventually get someone vaguely related to Israel via random stops too. That still won't be a very good defense when people start trying to make sure that cars can drive by safely. Now that's an interesting idea you've got there, Tim Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 15:25
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rscott posted:Nah man he's just using "Black on Black crime" except international relations: I live in Pennsylvania. I'm very very leftist. I was sooo excited to vote for fetterman and did regardless of the fact that he had not yet recovered from his stroke. Maybe the stroke affected his personality/cognition or maybe this was always who he was. But god drat, if he runs again, he will NEVER get my vote again...
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Jan 12, 2024 15:39
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:If the US (or anyone else) cared anything at all about civilians dying they'd stop israel, not the Houthis. The ships they're targeting being israeli or not don't matter, they're not trying to disrupt israel's economy specifically, they're trying to disrupt global trade in order to force international action on Gaza. It is about the genocide of Palestinians, and they are basically the only group on earth sticking their necks out to try and stop the slaughter. They're being bombed because the United States -- at best -- doesn't value Palestinian lives at all, but has an interest in keeping shipping costs low and allowing israel to murder whomever it wants, whenever it wants. The bombings are a message to knock it off and let israel rampage unimpeded. Do you think there might be a distinction between "block traffic to protest" and "shoot missiles at traffic and kidnap random people"?
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Jan 12, 2024 15:46
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Kchama posted:How do you think pirates financially benefit when they hijack a ship and take it to their place? They either ransom it back and/or take the stuff on board. They have a bunch of hostages to ransom, too. That doesn't seem like a very effective blockade if they're just ransoming the ships and letting them sail off. It also doesn't track with America's reason for attacking. If it was just a piracy cost of doing business it could be managed, but it's causing direct trace disruption to Israel.
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Jan 12, 2024 15:47
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CeeJee posted:The Houthis simply claim the crew are also Israelis. No proof in the form of passports or anything but it's enough for their supporters. Thank you, this is what I was looking for, though for a different attack, based on the dates. The specific Houthi claims seem to be poorly cataloged in related English articles and on Wikipedia which I think is amplifying the noise on this.
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Jan 12, 2024 15:48
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:What I am not willing to say is that they're attacking these ships because the Houthis are all nasty savages that love doing piracy and making the products I love from the brands I trust more expensive. While this is a rather uncharitable way of framing it, the fact remains that the Houthis were attacking ships in the Red Sea since well before the current Israeli invasion of Gaza. They've been periodically raiding shipping, mining shipping lanes, and threatening to block traffic to the Suez Canal for years, and various militaries have been engaged in low-level operations to contain those disruptions and protect shipping for years.
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Jan 12, 2024 15:50
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Marenghi posted:That doesn't seem like a very effective blockade if they're just ransoming the ships and letting them sail off. They aren't blocking the Suez Canal, there are still a lot of ships using it.
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Jan 12, 2024 15:53
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Main Paineframe posted:While this is a rather uncharitable way of framing it, the fact remains that the Houthis were attacking ships in the Red Sea since well before the current Israeli invasion of Gaza. They've been periodically raiding shipping, mining shipping lanes, and threatening to block traffic to the Suez Canal for years, and various militaries have been engaged in low-level operations to contain those disruptions and protect shipping for years. I wonder if anything else has been going on in Yemen that might encourage them to build up their naval power in order to try and find whatever leverage they can against an international order that has it out for them? Impossible to know, probably. Timmy Age 6 posted:Do you think there might be a distinction between "block traffic to protest" and "shoot missiles at traffic and kidnap random people"? Was your metaphor supposed to be about how they're different? Regardless, the distinction is a matter of degree -- the protestors and the Houthis are both putting pressure on economic (figurative and literal) lanes, and because of that people who are not directly involved with the israeli genocide campaign but operate in systems that are are caught in the crossfire. Ideally none of this would ever need to happen but it is because israel is committing a genocide and the people who have the power to stop it refuse to, and so desperate times &c.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:07
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Was your metaphor supposed to be about how they're different? Regardless, the distinction is a matter of degree -- the protestors and the Houthis are both putting pressure on economic (figurative and literal) lanes, and because of that people who are not directly involved with the israeli genocide campaign but operate in systems that are are caught in the crossfire. Ideally none of this would ever need to happen but it is because israel is committing a genocide and the people who have the power to stop it refuse to, and so desperate times &c. Do you think that protesters block traffic lanes in cities with the goal being to put economic pressure on a city? That's the first time I've heard that claim. I've participated in it with a goal to be to raise awareness of an issue with the general public. And I think it's safe to say that it was the same goal as nearly everyone else in protests that block traffic in a city.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:28
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