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Gravitas Shortfall posted:I suppose it's too early, but there really should be tension between Guilliman and The Lion, in a "who said YOU got to be running the joint" kind of way I've not read much of the new Guilliman Returned stuff outside of Watchers of the Throne, but didn't he go into daddy's throne room and basically get told to run poo poo? I guess the Lion could go in for his turn if he makes it back across the divide
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Jan 17, 2024 18:25
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Also the real answer for the lack of conflict between Guilliman and The Lion is just that they're operating in two completely different regions of the Galaxy and fulfilling two totally different roles, Guilliman is the Imperial regent in Imperium Sanctus while The Lion is a wandering hero carving his way through Imperium Nihilus. Canonically they have not met even once and as far as we know Guilliman is totally unaware of Johnson's return and Johnson only knows Guilliman is back because Dante told him.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:29
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There's also the fact that this pretty much exact same story beat already happened with these same primarchs during the heresy, in a novel no less and not a supplement or whatever. Interestingly, the history of imperium secundus is set up to be revealed by chaos agents, based on the final dark imperium novel. In my mind I could see this setting the two up for more cooperation and not less, since they were both involved and may support each other BigShasta fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 19:32
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AnEdgelord posted:Yeah and his name is Abaddon Abaddon the Despoiler and his son, Abby the Spoiler
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Jan 17, 2024 20:06
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Improbable Lobster posted:Abaddon the Despoiler and his son, Abby the Spoiler With all the daddy issues he's got I wouldn't be surprised if Abaddon turned the 14th (or whatever) Black Crusade around with the express intention of decapitating a Horus clone if one appeared.
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Jan 17, 2024 20:34
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I think we’ve conclusively established that clones are not the real deal I’m sad more primarchs are being brought into “the present” but people seem to love them so that is the way of things I guess
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Jan 17, 2024 21:16
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That HH short where Fulgrim gets Fabius Bile to keep making Ferrus Manus clones that he inevitably kills because he can't convince them to join him was pretty funny.
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Jan 17, 2024 21:27
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euphronius posted:I think we’ve conclusively established that clones are not the real deal With primarchs in particular, you're absolutely right. The primarchs' bodies are just well-crafted vessels for their soul / Warp presence / whatever you'd like to call it, which is the really special part of their existence. Fabius can clone a primarch's body, but without the special soul it's just a big dude, and the galaxy does not have a shortage of big dudes. With ordinary people I think cloning produces an accurate copy including special traits (Penitent) Bequin's clone being a blank and all that but the primarchs are very much an exception.
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Jan 17, 2024 21:47
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Yes I meant primarchs specifically
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Jan 17, 2024 21:52
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I think what we're seeing is some very strict guard rails on how to play with returned Primarchs. Effectively, you're writing 40k canon in a way that (typically) 40k novellists are not permitted - With long term, unrevokable consequences. In normal circumstances, it's The X-Men as 40k - It doesn't matter what you do, you can kill off a character even as long as by the end of your arc they're back and OK. Once a Primarch is added to the mix, and outside of the HH where their fate is already decided, everyone gets a lot more nervous about, say, committing the Lion to rebellion against Guilliman as they both have different opinions on what the Imperium is now. That needs to be a High Lords decision, (the BL group in conjunction with the actual GW Board, not the in-game one) and that's harder. The same reason they're so reticient of when and how they bring any back - They need to sync it up to the model release, the promotional schedule, etc. Actually why I was so disappointed by Pariah/Penitent - Where is our huge King in Yellow game-shaking event? I hold out hope for the third book. --- On cloning: The point is it's 'easy' (And by easy, I mean, not at all, there's only a handful of named characters in the setting who could manage it) to clone a Primarchs body, the problem is, Primarchs aren't really their bodies. They're basically Greater Daemons of the Emperor who just happen to inhabit this flesh sack the Emperor made for them. They're warp entities manifest.
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Jan 17, 2024 22:38
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Shockeh posted:
I don't hold out any hope whatsoever for the Bequin trilogy containing any kind of setting-changing revelations or plot developments, because just as you were saying, novels don't get to lead the story. They always follow whatever directives the gaming side of GW hands down, because 40K is a tabletop game first and a novel setting a distant second in terms of. Nothing that got teased in Penitent has been reflected in any way on the gaming side in the years since it got published, so my expectation is that it all gets wrapped up tidily and resolved by the end of the third book. It's going to be like in the Fabius Bile books where he clones Fulgrim and actually gets the real Primarch Fulgrim, soul and all, with all his primarch mojo apparently? And then hands him off to Trazyn to pop into a stasis field so he doesn't actually return to the setting, because GW hasn't decreed that Fulgrim gets to return yet. Or maybe Abnett will return to his classic form and wrap it up in a ridiculously hasty fashion  The webway pocket or whatever it is containing all the plot-related stuff collapses, everything's gone, no impact on the setting, full stop. I do hold out hope that the third book will be a good and entertaining book, but I'm absolutely not expecting it to have any consequences. In general I think 40K fiction is at its best when it doesn't even claim to have wide-reaching consequences, because we the audience know that no such consequences will actually be allowed. Assassinorum Kingmaker or Warboss are perfect examples of books where the stakes are fully contained within the scope of the story, and therefore the outcome can be anything, never making a claim of grand consequences but instead making the consequences to be things that the characters in the story care about. The above is an awkward paragraph but I can't think of a better way to phrase it. Kylaer fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 22:57
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Kylaer posted:With ordinary people I think cloning produces an accurate copy including special traits (Penitent) Bequin's clone being a blank and all that but the primarchs are very much an exception. Beta Bequin is the product of a special genetic program run by one of the oldest and most knowledgeable people in the galaxy, with access to untold resources in the form of both archaeotech and warp mastery, so I dunno if that’s a generalizable rule or just specific to her circumstances.
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Jan 18, 2024 00:06
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If anyone will be able to write anything that effects 40k proper it would be Dabnett
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Jan 18, 2024 00:15
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Dog_Meat posted:I've not read much of the new Guilliman Returned stuff outside of Watchers of the Throne, but didn't he go into daddy's throne room and basically get told to run poo poo? I guess the Lion could go in for his turn if he makes it back across the divide They talk about it in the Dark Imperium books. I forget the exact text but he pops out of the interaction pissed because the feeling he got from the Emperor was that he was only ever seen as a weapon. The only reason he got to run stuff was that he had done it previously after the Heresy. They haven't "Shown" the Lion and Gulliman meeting. After the Arks of Omen books, I assume Gulliman knows the Lion's awake.
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Jan 18, 2024 03:27
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Calax posted:After the Arks of Omen books, I assume Gulliman knows the Lion's awake. As far as we know he does not. Lion is in Nihilus and none of the expeditions Guilliman has sent over have returned yet. Guilliman himself is preparing to cross over as stated in the last few Dawn of Fire books so I imagine he will at some point in the near future and then they will meet. I think it has been pretty obvious that BL wanted to finish the Siege books before doing any big lore stuff in the 40k era. I expect they'll have things start moving soon because they have laid a lot of groundwork for relatively big lore stuff that is coming down the pipe.
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Jan 18, 2024 05:20
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loving hyped for volume 3. It's going to end on something insane like "Memoirs - Malcador the Risen, M42"
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Jan 18, 2024 07:22
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Demiurge4 posted:It's going to end on something insane like "Memoirs - Malcador the Risen, M52" ftfy, go big or go home
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Jan 18, 2024 08:55
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Demiurge4 posted:loving hyped for volume 3. It's going to end on something insane like "Memoirs - Malcador the Risen, M42" Eisenhorn takes the throne... he's always been on the throne because gently caress you, that's why <stares in purple eyed willpower>
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Jan 18, 2024 09:31
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I want the Wizard of Oz ending with Emps waking up in a big gold bed surrounded by the primarchs as he tells them this weird dream he had about a heresy and how they were all there.
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Jan 18, 2024 09:46
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Archer666 posted:I want the Wizard of Oz ending with Emps waking up in a big gold bed surrounded by the primarchs as he tells them this weird dream he had about a heresy and how they were all there. Mix it with a Return of the King ending with the primarchs happily jumping up and down on the Emperor's bed while Malcador looks over approvingly Gandalf-style
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Jan 18, 2024 10:04
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Oh my God I was wrong! It was Calth all along! ... I love you, Lorgar Aurelian!
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Jan 18, 2024 10:50
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D-Pad posted:As far as we know he does not. Lion is in Nihilus and none of the expeditions Guilliman has sent over have returned yet. Guilliman himself is preparing to cross over as stated in the last few Dawn of Fire books so I imagine he will at some point in the near future and then they will meet. I think it has been pretty obvious that BL wanted to finish the Siege books before doing any big lore stuff in the 40k era. I expect they'll have things start moving soon because they have laid a lot of groundwork for relatively big lore stuff that is coming down the pipe. I thought Guilliman has passed through to Nihilus, isn't Baal on that side of things? He speaks with Dante in person.
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Jan 18, 2024 11:11
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Yeah and then he came back to Sanctus. It's a weird timeline. What bothers me about the setup is that it seems to be a complete repeat of Unremembered Empire, a very bad and terrible book. Guilliman obsesses over the "shame" of it and a bunch of sides are trying to expose it in the Dawn of Fire books so it does seem obvious why people assume the Lion and Guilliman will get into a conflict about it but it's all very contrived and unconvincing.
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Jan 18, 2024 11:21
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Dog_Meat posted:Eisenhorn takes the throne... he's always been on the throne because gently caress you, that's why Ciaphas Cain travels back in time to the showdown on the Vengeful Spirit, Jurgen  Horus with his trusty meltagun, and Cain ends up on the Throne somehow. He's doing fine and could have stepped down at any time, but he can't figure out how to explain "Actually, you've been worshipping me for the past The Emperor is on vacation somewhere. He won't return until his empathic side that he split off in TEatD2 gets returned to him and he starts caring about his responsibilities again Kylaer fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 11:53
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I am crazy hyped for Volume 3, my kindle pre order is ready to go and I'm going to get baked out of my mind on release day and go hog wild 
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Jan 18, 2024 12:01
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Kylaer posted:Ciaphas Cain travels back in time to the showdown on the Vengeful Spirit, Jurgen honestly. i wish that were true.
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Jan 18, 2024 14:50
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Bohemian Nights posted:No idiot, the head of a lion pack is called the alpha wolf, and what space marine legion is associated with wolves?? that's right, Horus is basically confirmed to be the next primach to return Settle down Valrak.
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Jan 18, 2024 15:15
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Inspector_666 posted:I thought Guilliman has passed through to Nihilus, isn't Baal on that side of things? He speaks with Dante in person. Yeah this is true but that book was written before they decided to bring the Lion back and is technically set further in the future than almost everything else that is "current". Right now in Dawn of Fire Bobby G is preparing to cross and I assume they will rewrite or at least mention a change to the meeting with Dante as a result of that down the line. One could assume that retroactively bringing the Lion back means that Dante told him about the Lion even though we didn't see it in the scene but even if that's true we still haven't seen a single thing about Guilliman actually knowing or reacting to the news so its still up in the air. GW really messed things up with their initial plan for this new time period. It seems like initially they were going to just say the current timeline is this 100 year period and you guys can write books set at anytime during that period and here is the basic outline of what happens during that, but then once they got a ways into it they realized this wasn't going to work so now they are actually just trying to write a progression of stories that slowly works through the time period. Hence the rewrite of Dark Imperium etc
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Jan 18, 2024 16:05
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Dante's meeting with Guilliman is when he is declared regent of Imperium Nihilus and when he meets the Lion he does so in his capacity as regent so it's likely that Guilliman went over to Nihilus to do his Primaris deliveries and then hosed off back to Sanctus before the Lion came back. Either way the Lion only knows Guilliman is back thanks to Dante telling him and Guilliman himself seems wholly unaware of the Lion being back.
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Jan 18, 2024 16:16
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AnEdgelord posted:Dante's meeting with Guilliman is when he is declared regent of Imperium Nihilus and when he meets the Lion he does so in his capacity as regent so it's likely that Guilliman went over to Nihilus to do his Primaris deliveries and then hosed off back to Sanctus before the Lion came back. Either way the Lion only knows Guilliman is back thanks to Dante telling him and Guilliman himself seems wholly unaware of the Lion being back. That makes more sense. I hope they don't retcon anything about the Dante meeting out, it's pretty impactful stuff.
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Jan 18, 2024 16:20
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D-Pad posted:Yeah this is true but that book was written before they decided to bring the Lion back and is technically set further in the future than almost everything else that is "current". Right now in Dawn of Fire Bobby G is preparing to cross and I assume they will rewrite or at least mention a change to the meeting with Dante as a result of that down the line. One could assume that retroactively bringing the Lion back means that Dante told him about the Lion even though we didn't see it in the scene but even if that's true we still haven't seen a single thing about Guilliman actually knowing or reacting to the news so its still up in the air. The only retcon I recall is them pulling dark imperium a bit further back chronologically since that was the first book of the new era but jumped like a century into the future.The general timeline of everything that happens is the same, Gulliman launches the indomitus crusade which is where dawn of fire happens, reaches dante (devastation of baal, he sets up the imperium nihilis and then the plague war happens (dark imperium). The change is that the plague war happens 12 years after the crusade gets launched, not like a century after. There's still a ton of story stuff that takes place after the dawn of fire series, and the current timeline in the game world with the return of angron and dorn, the tyranid invasion etc, is well beyond it. They really just shifted the numbers for one book series around while keeping the general progression of events the same. Dawn of Fire is still way behind the current arc and I don't imagine theyll do further retcons. At least that's how I thought it was. I agree that making 8th edition take place way in the future and skipping over all the events that led to a new status quo was an odd one. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 16:25
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Since it's been all but explicitly stated that Belisarius Cawl is using traitor legion geneseed for making new Primaris chapters and lying about it, I'm disproportionately amused by the idea that Guilleman knows about it and just has to put up with it because he needs the troops, while Cawl thinks he's so cleverly concealing his actions and has Guilleman fooled. "My lord, I am delighted to report that I have managed to alter the VI Legion geneseed so that aspirants no longer need to be carriers of the Canis Helix for successful implantation, thus allowing recruitment from worlds other than Fenris. Here are the first Primaris of the new chapter." (Pulls up an image showing a line of identical-appearing, copper-skinned, bald Astartes) "I have named them the Alpha Wolves." And Guilleman just 
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Jan 18, 2024 16:37
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It’s heavily implied that the Ultramarines absorbed the II and XI Legions after their primarchs did something so bad that they got memory holed, so Guilliman is already a pragmatist about this stuff.
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Jan 18, 2024 16:47
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:It’s heavily implied that the Ultramarines absorbed the II and XI Legions after their primarchs did something so bad that they got memory holed, so Guilliman is already a pragmatist about this stuff. This is the Imperium, so, "something so bad" might mean "tolerated xenos."
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Jan 18, 2024 16:57
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The Ultras have a longstanding habit of hiding members of other Legions and chapters within their ranks.
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Jan 18, 2024 17:17
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Kylaer posted:"My lord, I am delighted to report that I have managed to alter the VI Legion geneseed so that aspirants no longer need to be carriers of the Canis Helix for successful implantation, thus allowing recruitment from worlds other than Fenris. Here are the first Primaris of the new chapter." (Pulls up an image showing a line of identical-appearing, copper-skinned, bald Astartes) "I have named them the Alpha Wolves." My favourites are the extremely suspect chapters Cawl made from "Salamander" geneseed (with no mention of any of them having the classic Salamander mutations).
And of course there's always the Sons Of The Phoenix
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Jan 18, 2024 17:23
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhjT7owKCYE
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Jan 18, 2024 17:24
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The Minotaurs will always be relict World Eaters in my mind.
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Jan 18, 2024 18:18
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Fearless posted:The Minotaurs will always be relict World Eaters in my mind. Their first deployment, definitely. Their behaviour after their reappearance sounds suspiciously Iron-Warrior-like. Lexicanum posted:Fragmentary records of the Minotaurs founded during the Cursed Founding of M36 indicate that their gene-seed was chimeric. While they avoided the genetic mutation that occurred in other Chapters from the same Founding, they quickly achieved an unsavoury reputation being uncontrolled berserkers. However, whether this is the same chapter as is currently recorded under the Minotaur name is highly uncertain, as records of a Minotaurs chapter predates the Cursed Founding. The current Minotaurs show no tendencies for becoming wild berzerkers, instead being far more controlled and strategic, as well as being known as brooding, malign, and obsessed with their defenses and security protocols to the point of paranoia.
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Jan 18, 2024 18:24
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tbf a lot of marine chapters bave berserker tendencies. Blood angels, space wolves, world eaters and the iron hands all do, plus a ton of successor chapters
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Jan 18, 2024 18:35
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