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Lead out in cuffs posted:Lol Denmark has a very similar climate to most of Canada and one of the highest cycling rates in the world. Not disputing that bike lanes are a cheap alternative, but Denmark does not have a climate similar to most of Canada, let alone Toronto, so I don’t think it’s a great comparison. Mean January temperatures in Denmark in don’t even drop below 1 degree Celsius.
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Jan 24, 2024 21:36
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Major Major Major posted:Not disputing that bike lanes are a cheap alternative, but Denmark does not have a climate similar to most of Canada, let alone Toronto, so I don’t think it’s a great comparison. Mean January temperatures in Denmark in don’t even drop below 1 degree Celsius. Finland, then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
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Jan 24, 2024 21:44
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Lol Denmark has a very similar climate to most of Canada and one of the highest cycling rates in the world. Denmark is also tiny, with Copenhagen being about 1/15th the size of Toronto. Toronto is huge, and large distances are better crossed by mass transit than human legs on wheels. The study you cited is nice, but it doesn’t compare increased cycling spending to increased mass transit spending, just projected status quo spending. Which is just “better than cars”.
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Jan 24, 2024 21:50
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Mederlock posted:Finland, then: This video is pretty awesome, I’ve seen it before. But it’s definitely an outlier. No other cities or towns in Finland have that scale of cycling infrastructure maintenance throughout the winter, nor do they have the admittedly cute micro culture of cycling through the winter. It’s just kind of winter wonderland for cyclists. The city is Oulu, for those interested. City of 200k people. Seems like a cool place honestly.
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Jan 24, 2024 21:53
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Toronto being a contiguous largely flat blob is better for cycling than most cities. It's really pathetic that it lags behind Vancouver and Montreal in cycling adoption considering that the geography of Toronto is so much better for cycling. Plow major bike lanes problem solved. I struggle to see how it's any sort of real issue at all. There is no technical barrier here it's just an issue around how much money a city wants to spend on snow removal.
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Jan 24, 2024 22:04
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a primate posted:Denmark is also tiny, with Copenhagen being about 1/15th the size of Toronto. Toronto is huge, and large distances are better crossed by mass transit than human legs on wheels. Bike infrastructure makes transit infrastructure more useful because you can bike to and from the transit arteries rather than relying on increasingly-sparse local bus service. The SF Bay Area is full of people who bike to/from the intercity train and it works really well for them. Their road traffic isn’t even as bad as Toronto’s!
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Jan 24, 2024 22:10
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Femtosecond posted:Toronto being a contiguous largely flat blob is better for cycling than most cities. It's really pathetic that it lags behind Vancouver and Montreal in cycling adoption considering that the geography of Toronto is so much better for cycling. I think the biggest barrier is adoption, because freezing your rear end off isn’t very fun, especially in the type of slushy wet weather we get a lot of the year. The city seems to do an OK job of plowing, but I only walk and transit so I wouldn’t really know.
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Jan 24, 2024 22:41
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I can dress for colder weather but I can't personally plow several kilometers of bike lane
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Jan 24, 2024 23:09
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Two-way bike lanes are about as wide as one bus lane, which would be totally unnecessary on most of Bloor and Yonge anyway. Besides, it's a false dichotomy to start with. Suburban stroads like Sheppard have plenty of room for both.
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Jan 24, 2024 23:39
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Subjunctive posted:who’s going to pay for buses to fill the bus lanes? not the TTC, that’s for sure I misread this as "who's going to pay for buses to fill the bike lanes" and it still worked perfectly well. :X
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Jan 24, 2024 23:42
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Precambrian Video Games posted:Two-way bike lanes are about as wide as one bus lane, which would be totally unnecessary on most of Bloor and Yonge anyway. Besides, it's a false dichotomy to start with. Suburban stroads like Sheppard have plenty of room for both. Weirdly enough, what might save the suburbs is their generous road right-of-way, which could allow high-capacity transit corridors and generous active transportation infrastructure to fit in very easily.
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Jan 24, 2024 23:48
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a primate posted:Can someone sell me on bike lanes? They seem like the dumbest possible use of funds in a country with actual Winter and the support tends to boil down to “better than car infrastructure spending”. With the amount of bike lanes put in Toronto, for instance, we could have had dedicated bus lanes instead. O'Connor Street has a two-way bike lane, cement bordered, that gets ignored in favor of the road, even when vehicles are jamming it bumper to bumper. Queen Elizabeth Driveway has a cycling trail away from the road, a walking path beside the canal, and in some areas a third path on the other side, and yet cyclists insist on using the road. The road that is in a horrible state of disrepair compared to the bike path. They're not even inconveniencing me, just confounding. I do not understand why they insist on being in more danger.
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Jan 25, 2024 00:29
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Gainsboro posted:I was very pro-bike lanes (and for the most part still am) until I moved to Ottawa, and for some reason the majority of cyclists downtown avoid them like they're irradiated. This is a very different experience than I have as someone living in downtown Ottawa. Most cyclists on O’Connor are on the cycle track. Since the cycle track is bidirectional on the left side of the road, it’s quite hard to make right turns. Most people will try to do some sort of two stage turn and yes some very confident ones will just merge across to do right turn. It’s a riskier move for sure and I wouldn’t do it except late at night when the street is empty. For QED there is a very good reason to be on the road itself and not on the pathway: if you’re actually biking to pretty much any destination. There are few connections between the canal pathway and all the adjoining side streets. Most people are biking to places - not just for fun. Yes there are some vehicular cyclists who like to ride as bikes are treated in the Highway Traffic Act - as just another vehicle. But the average cyclist wants safe protected facilities and uses them to the point of doing more circuitous routes in order to stay on protected facilities.
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Jan 25, 2024 02:19
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Sundae posted:I misread this as "who's going to pay for buses to fill the bike lanes" and it still worked perfectly well. :X No room with all the delivery trucks and cops there.
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Jan 25, 2024 02:37
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Shofixti posted:This is a very different experience than I have as someone living in downtown Ottawa. Sundae posted:I misread this as "who's going to pay for buses to fill the bike lanes" and it still worked perfectly well. :X
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Jan 25, 2024 02:46
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a primate posted:Can someone sell me on bike lanes? They seem like the dumbest possible use of funds in a country with actual Winter and the support tends to boil down to “better than car infrastructure spending”. With the amount of bike lanes put in Toronto, for instance, we could have had dedicated bus lanes instead. Do you bike?
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Jan 25, 2024 03:05
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Health Services posted:Do you bike? For fun, yea. To commute, no. I used to, when I lived close to work. I was part of a small minority then. Potentially because bike lanes didn’t exist back then, but more probably because most people don’t live within biking distance of their workplace.
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Jan 25, 2024 03:34
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Gainsboro posted:I was very pro-bike lanes (and for the most part still am) until I moved to Ottawa, and for some reason the majority of cyclists downtown avoid them like they're irradiated. Counter point: I actually ride a bike in Ottawa and do so close to exclusively on the trail system or in bike lanes. It's actually the main reason I don't bike in the winter. All of my bypasses for overpass death stroads are completely unmaintained and the shaded bits often don't thaw out until May On my commute I'll pass dozens of cyclists on the canal pathway and see maybe 1 or 2 on colonel by. Usually they are impatient types who dislike using their bells and having to otherwise navigate around people, and power to them. Bike paths/lanes are admittedly too small for the speed differentials at play and if we actually saw wider adoption it would be chaos. That's another good point from the Finland video. Look how wide those paths are! Tons of room to maneuver. Now compare that to the protected lanes on say.. Laurier. Nowhere to go. I can easily ride 35km/hr for the duration of my commute but usually get stuck doing 15-18 on that road. Just imagine being stuck driving 20 in a 50 and the guys riding on the road start to make more sense. Edit: not to say there isn't a place for smaller lanes but they are rare enough that they become sort of like bike highways and thus bottlenecks. If we only have so few they should at least allow traffic of different speeds to filter. Second edit: watch the not just bikes Finland video, separate from the utopia footage he does a really good job of explaining why riding winters in Toronto was difficult for him and it wasn't the weather. Math You fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 03:51
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Our bike lanes in Calgary are consistently plowed with decent priority and seem to get a lot of use in the winter. You can do it very quickly and cheaply compared to plowing stroads, which are always poo poo because even if they get plowed, snow gets brought onto them from unplowed parking lots and sidestreets and you're fighting a constant, losing battle.
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Jan 25, 2024 05:20
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As someone who has biked ever since they used to deliver the gazette on a bike, hauling it all in a trailer anytime during the year, I can share that I would much rather bike in cold winter weather, than in rain. One tip I do is I have one of those heat pads for people with tense shoulders. Microwave that with my gloves for 3 minutes, put it on and bike to work. It keeps you warm, and by the time you start burning energy, you don't need it as much. If you get too hot, you can take off one glove for a little bit to cool down. What I don't like in winter is slush / unplowed roads or paths. It can make your front tire go wonky if you don't shift your weight waaay back. Advantage of biking to work in winter is that I don't get sweaty and need to change upon arriving at work.
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Jan 25, 2024 05:34
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Gainsboro posted:I was very pro-bike lanes (and for the most part still am) until I moved to Ottawa, and for some reason the majority of cyclists downtown avoid them like they're irradiated. This really sounds like someone who has rarely commuted or actually tried to get somewhere by bike in this city. You don't understand, but they surely know why they're doing that, they're not just being weird. They are slowly improving but it's in fits and starts and the city doesn't even follow their own recommendations for how bike lanes are supposed to be designed. A huge portion of Ottawa's cycling lanes are actually MUPs which are fine for recreational biking around. They are not suitable at all for destination-driven transportation. You are (quite reasonably) speed-limited due to sharing with people on foot, walking dogs, children running around, and so forth. I avoid them as much as I possibly can because I consider them to be dangerous infrastructure. The speed and maneuverability ratio between pedestrians and bikes is much higher than between bikes and vehicles. As for actual bike lanes. The one most relevant to me is Montreal Rd which is a complete garbage effort by the city. It's a shameful attempt that would be roundly mocked in any actual cycling city. It's incredibly narrow, barely wider than handlebars in large sections and is further infringed upon by tree plantings and light posts in numerous places. It's not grade-separated (or by other means) from the sidewalk, probably due to how narrow it is, so people are constantly walking in it without even noticing. Not a single side street on either side has a raised crossing at the intersection, no idea why. The most critical link to the east Rideau pathway doesn't exist yet so the bike path just ends at a massive intersection with no other connecting routes. It's worth noting that basically the entire design directly conflicts with Ottawa's own Transportation Master Plan and various other design documents and guidelines. Sometimes they do road redesigns properly but I take Montreal as reflective of the city's lack of commitment and foresight. It does not bode well for the future. I can really go on and on about this lol
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Jan 25, 2024 15:44
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a primate posted:This video is pretty awesome, I’ve seen it before. But it’s definitely an outlier. No other cities or towns in Finland have that scale of cycling infrastructure maintenance throughout the winter, nor do they have the admittedly cute micro culture of cycling through the winter. It’s just kind of winter wonderland for cyclists. I'm sorry to jump on you specifically, but I'm getting increasingly tired of seeing this exact argument used against almost every type of civic improvement imaginable. Public transit, public housing, public health insurance, cycling infrastructure, competitive markets, denser cities, you name it, we can't do it in Canada unless there are multiple other countries with the exact size, population, climate and culture as Canada who have already implemented it successfully at zero taxpayer expense and no impact the returns of shareholders of a single company.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:28
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jettisonedstuff posted:I'm sorry to jump on you specifically, but I'm getting increasingly tired of seeing this exact argument used against almost every type of civic improvement imaginable. Public transit, public housing, public health insurance, cycling infrastructure, competitive markets, denser cities, you name it, we can't do it in Canada unless there are multiple other countries with the exact size, population, climate and culture as Canada who have already implemented it successfully at zero taxpayer expense and no impact the returns of shareholders of a single company. No I understand. For the record I’m in favour of all of those. I was just responding to someone using a specific edge case to justify spending more on bike lanes rather than public transit. We can try new things and have fun experimenting, but the downtown core has a limited amount of space that can either bring many people long distances or few people short distances. I’m siding with the former. If you watch the video you’ll see that cycling infrastructure like they have in Oulu takes up quite a bit of space and wouldn’t work in a more densely planned space like the downtown core. There are probably more appropriate places to try to replicate Amsterdam or Leiden in Canada but the majority of commuters shouldn’t be ceding space to a few people who are lucky enough to live a few block from work. I’ve enjoyed the discussion here but apologies if we’re getting too far afield of housing issues. E: actually, a great place would be that clean slate development by the water. They can prioritise pedestrian and cycling traffic their easily since there are fewer existing constraints with road traffic a primate fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 19:12
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a primate posted:No I understand. For the record I’m in favour of all of those. I was just responding to someone using a specific edge case to justify spending more on bike lanes rather than public transit. We can try new things and have fun experimenting, but the downtown core has a limited amount of space that can either bring many people long distances or few people short distances. I’m siding with the former. what the gently caress is this lol "oh boo hoo my car might be slow" get on a goddamn bus
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Jan 25, 2024 21:03
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Arivia posted:what the gently caress is this lol I am on the bus. I’m arguing for a bus lane rather than a bike lane.
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Jan 25, 2024 21:08
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God imagine living in a society where people argued about whether bike lanes or bus lanes should be installed. We can’t even get street parking removed in places where there are ample dedicated parking lots in order to allow for faster bus travel.
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Jan 25, 2024 21:12
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a primate posted:I am on the bus. I’m arguing for a bus lane rather than a bike lane. no. we have the bike lane, and we remove the CAR lane for a bus lane.
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Jan 25, 2024 21:39
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I personally love snaking back and forth on Queen Street to get to the right of the trams, and then to the left of the million and one parked cars, then to the right of people turning left, etc., because having street parking on the four-lane main road is clearly optimal.
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Jan 25, 2024 21:41
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Arivia posted:no. we have the bike lane, and we remove the CAR lane for a bus lane. Nah you can’t really do that. There are deliveries, contractors and service vehicles that need to move around the city. It’s not all Teslas driven by tech bros. If they banned all the tech bros though…
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Jan 25, 2024 21:48
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sitchensis posted:God imagine living in a society where people argued about whether bike lanes or bus lanes should be installed. Removing any number of on-street parking spaces for something other than personal automobiles is tantamount to a fundamental violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. 
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Jan 25, 2024 21:52
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a primate posted:Nah you can’t really do that. There are deliveries, contractors and service vehicles that need to move around the city. It’s not all Teslas driven by tech bros. if it's large enough to have a dedicated bus lane, then it was presumably four lanes or larger beforehand, so remove two lanes for buses and a bit for bikes and then you've got two lanes for cars. works fine.
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Jan 25, 2024 21:56
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a primate posted:Nah you can’t really do that. There are deliveries, contractors and service vehicles that need to move around the city. It’s not all Teslas driven by tech bros. Removing one lane of car traffic is a different thing than banning all car traffic.
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Jan 25, 2024 21:58
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Also hilarious is the declaration that you have to live "a few blocks from work" to commute by bike. That's walking distance bro. I changed jobs over COVID and now live 20km from work which is a significant commute by any standard but still easily manageable by bike. Is it a flash? No, but 45 minutes of cardio in the morning has me feeling better throughout the day than when it took 10 minutes. Sometimes it's a little bit of a drag on the way home, but that's the way she goes. Regardless it's not just the Laurentian elites who have the privilege of using these lanes. You probably could.
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Jan 25, 2024 22:34
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Removing one lane of car traffic is a different thing than banning all car traffic. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 23:14
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More trains and more buses. I’m an unhealthy bastard and also lazy as gently caress so you’re never going to see me riding on a bike ever let alone uphill to UBC or wherever
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Jan 26, 2024 01:00
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Ebikes make bike infrastructure so much more useful and accessible. Got big hills? Ebike. Need to pull a trailer of groceries? Ebike. Out of shape? Ebike. Need visibility? Ebikes almost always have lots of build in lights. I converted an old 90s steel mountain bike into an e-bike when I was first getting into bike commuting, and it made commuting significant distances painless. Then in like 6 months I got a new lighter bike and riding the e-bike had made me fit enough that I no longer needed the electric assist to do the same commute without getting out of breath. Now I bike every day and got an e-bike for my wife and she's on the same journey I was on. Square Peg fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Jan 26, 2024 |
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Jan 26, 2024 02:14
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qhat posted:More trains and more buses. I’m an unhealthy bastard and also lazy as gently caress so you’re never going to see me riding on a bike ever let alone uphill to UBC or wherever I'm sorry the budget only has enough money for more lanes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds-v2-qyCc8&t=90s Buses and trains cost too much
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Jan 26, 2024 03:17
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Square Peg posted:Ebikes make bike infrastructure so much more useful and accessible. Got big hills? Ebike. Need to pull a trailer of groceries? Ebike. Out of shape? Ebike. Need visibility? Ebikes almost always have lots of build in lights. Did I mention that I’m lazy? I’m lazy, Anyway I work from home so I guess do whatever with the lanes
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Jan 26, 2024 04:29
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Bike lanes are extremely cool
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Jan 26, 2024 04:56
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Cities do not disadvantage transit operations to better serve bikes because they know transit and bikes complement each other. Even from a budget perspective, the amount dedicated to constructing new bike infrastructure is absolutely tiny compared to transit budgets. Actually a large proportion of bike and pedestrian infrastructure is “free” in that it’s constructed during regular infrastructure renewal and the cost delta to reconstruct the road with a wider sidewalk and raised cycle track is negligible. Ideally we wouldn’t have to wait for those maintenance windows to pop up but budgets are limited.
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Jan 26, 2024 13:34
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