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No Dignity
Oct 15, 2007

Yeah Prime 2 is insanely good in a Lost Levels kind of way. Ita rougher around the edges but the increased difficulty and more hostile world design is so evocative, and the art design alone...

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Owl Inspector
Sep 14, 2011

I prefer prime 2 for a few reasons and the prime 1 remaster made me very hungry for a prime 2 remaster

Was the prime 1 remaster successful at all? feels like they really bet against it by just releasing it out of nowhere with no hype. makes me worried they won’t bother with a prime 2 remaster.

No Dignity
Oct 15, 2007

I think it was an engine test/franchise refresher for 4. I'd love for Echoes and even Corruption to get similar remasters too but I was never optimistic

field balm
Feb 5, 2012

Fedule posted:

The guided mode toggle does one specific thing: it marks specific rooms as containing paths toward the main plot that you can or can't access yet (while the exploration mode still sometimes puts destination markers on your map). What's notable about this is that it's at the same time blunt and handholdy, and also worse than using the in-game screenshot pins, because despite giving everything away straight away it also doesn't actually tell you what's blocking you or is freshly permitted in any room, it's just telling you go here or don't go here and you take it at word with no thought. It skips over something it considers to be a problem without any consideration of why that problem causes people to feel bad - this is because the quintessential metroidvania experience is when you get a new ability and three or four locations you previously visited just float up, unbidden, to the forefront of your mind and you decide there and then to suspend the critical path and go exploring. At the same time, if the critical path isn't one of those locations, or if the player just forgets, there needs to be some kind of method for getting back on track.

This is a tricky game design problem! Metroidvanias are all about keeping track of things and coming back later but nobody is keeping a photographic memory map of all the terrain and all the pickups - that's why these games started having maps in the first place. But people also don't want to just be led around. The goal of a map is to offload the cognitive tedium of having to meticulously remember everything while still leaving the satisfying work to be done. For the most part, map systems that allow you to see where you haven't reached the edge of a room or been through a door handle this implicitly, you can look at that map and instantly see where you haven't been. What's needed then is some way of knowing what was blocking your path. The screenshot pins can help here, but to be frank, the information contained in the screenshots players are compelled to make is information that should already be marked on the map somehow. If the map is exactly detailed enough, it will give an idea of what the terrain was in a way that if you just got a new ability you could glance at the map and infer if you can now deal with it, without having an explicit Yes You Can Go Here Now marker.

PoP does indeed automatically mark one way doors, and unmarks them when opened. This is great and feels like a little bit of an insult because they specifically designed this one thing correctly but didn't extend it to anything else, just so everyone would know they could have but chose not to.

When you pass by a chest on a high ledge, the chest should mark itself on the map, and the ledge should be visible on the map. This way, all the information is added, automatically, and removed automatically, and the player can still put the pieces together themselves with regards to figuring out if they can reach it yet. The same goes for places you simply haven't been yet; the map should show, in reasonably granular detail, where there are places in a room you haven't been to, with the terrain marked, so you can look at the map without having to annotate it yourself, and think "oh there was a long gap here".

This only leaves the Actual Hidden Stuff. Players love exploring and discovering. Players are willing to search in a manageable space. Players hate scouring. There is no way around this; eventually, you have to start providing guidance (or, you have to have the self awareness not to have a Completion Counter or completionist Trophies in your game. If you have these things, you have a responsibility to help players get them. Every trip to google is a game design failure). By all means have your subtle hints, while players are still exploring, but as you tend towards 100% you need to start getting increasingly specific otherwise it's just going to be tedious. Metroid Dread has a blunt but very good solution for this; every pickup appears on the map but if it hasn't appeared on camera will only be shown as a large-ish but delineated area; "hey, explore around here". Other solutions exist. PoP does very little to help you if you're missing a handful of pale ores or heart pieces or what have you, and frustration results until you crack open PowerPyx and run down each location one at a time. It's wild that the game gives you a hot and cold chest detector but still leaves so many pickups out in the open, thus undetectable. It honestly feels incomplete in this regard. It's wild that there's an NPC who for the whole game will sell you both maps and hints for the critical path (which itself completely upends the guided navigation mode in both utility, adaptability to player needs, and ludonarrative seamlessness) but is silent in the postgame, where it seems like the most obvious thing in all of game design that you should be able to buy hints to missing pickups from her with the currency you've amassed from the 95% of the map you've found and explored yourself (see Chicory for this exact system implemented perfectly and charmingly).

This has been a lot of complaining despite how much I liked the game outside of specifically most of the boss fights and the postgame cleanup but I will always analyse game design failures, because it's always fascinating how minor feature changes make fundamentally the same processes feel frustrating instead of joyous, or vice versa.

Great post. Quoting it so I can find it later. I'm absolutely with you on needing to use Google being a design fail, nothing makes me more unhappy.

Fuzz
Jun 2, 2003

Avatar brought to you by the TG Sanity fund
I hated Prime 2 for making the regular arm cannon feel like a pea shooter compared to Prime 1, to the point where you literally don't even use it and just charge beam, and the second being adding in ammo for the alternate beams. gently caress that mechanic.

Ardryn
Oct 27, 2007

Rolling around at the speed of sound.


Fuzz posted:

I hated Prime 2 for making the regular arm cannon feel like a pea shooter compared to Prime 1, to the point where you literally don't even use it and just charge beam, and the second being adding in ammo for the alternate beams. gently caress that mechanic.

The beam ammo was the worst part of Prime 2, second being watching the transition loading cutscene.

Fuzz
Jun 2, 2003

Avatar brought to you by the TG Sanity fund
That said, the orchestrated Maridia music redux in it was great, and the world design was rad until the last section when it tone shifted into Tron out of left field.

Owl Inspector
Sep 14, 2011

Beam ammo was good and sanctuary fortress ruled.

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD :ovr:


Owl Inspector posted:

Beam ammo was good
:wrong:

Owl Inspector posted:

and sanctuary fortress ruled.
:yeah:

Fuzz
Jun 2, 2003

Avatar brought to you by the TG Sanity fund
It was a cool level and design, it was just completely out of step with literally everything shown of the Luminoth up until that point. It's like you're watching a movie about aliens with ancient Roman architecture that is half buried in a swamp and being eroded in a desert, and then suddenly you're on a Tau from 40k space fortress with anime light beams and lens flares. The art direction got high in the bathroom and just went ham.

No Dignity
Oct 15, 2007

Yeah it's sick, one of the most strikingly memorable areas in the entire franchise

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011

A silly little mouse!
It has that sick music that’s all: bwom-bwom babwombabawom, and then the little woowdawoowdawoowda part comes in.

sudonim
Oct 6, 2005

Fuzz posted:

The art direction got high in the bathroom and just went ham.
This is why it's good. Metroid is already weird, double down.

No Dignity
Oct 15, 2007

Also the Luminoth are a highly advanced civilisation who just live like ancient greeks for the vibes, Sanctuary Fortress is just what happened when they actually threw their weight about

No Dignity fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Feb 1, 2024

sudonim
Oct 6, 2005

Fuzz posted:

I hated Prime 2 for making the regular arm cannon feel like a pea shooter compared to Prime 1, to the point where you literally don't even use it and just charge beam,
This was my least favorite part of prime 2, you're already taking environmental damage in so much of the game, several enemies hit like trucks, and fighting back would take forever because they were bullet-spongey. The lighting dinos in the swamp area were the worst example.

Cemetry Gator
Apr 3, 2007

Do you find something comical about my appearance when I'm driving my automobile?
The boss battles in the new Prince of Persia are the absolute worst part about the game. They’re just obnoxious at times. I wish I had a better sense of when to parry because it feels so oblique. Obviously I’m doing it at the wrong time, but am I too late, am I too early? The game won’t tell me!

PantsBandit
Oct 26, 2007

it is both a monkey and a boombox

Cemetry Gator posted:

The boss battles in the new Prince of Persia are the absolute worst part about the game. They’re just obnoxious at times. I wish I had a better sense of when to parry because it feels so oblique. Obviously I’m doing it at the wrong time, but am I too late, am I too early? The game won’t tell me!

Yeah they're kind of bad. They would at least be tolerable as memory-exercises if you could skip the dragon ball z moves.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

Yeah, I understand there are probably people out there who are all about the boss fights (god knows there are lots of those people with Dark Souls), but I'm more about the exploration and platforming and maybe getting into the right rhythm to deal with individual enemies rather than one big fight.

People say they like bossfights as like a final exam of the skills involved with playing the game, but so often it feels like just a whole separate game mode.

TeaJay
Oct 9, 2012


I finished up with Momodora: Moonlit farewell in a little under 9 hours. It was a pretty good snack, not too tough, not too long. Certain sigil combos made you practically invincible, but the game didn't feel all that difficult even without them. For a 'vania it was quite linear, you never had that much choice on where to go and the movement abilities more or less just open up backtrack for secrets you missed the first time around. I wish you'd find more grimoires (slots for sigils) a bit earlier, maybe that would've given more room for experimenting. Plot wasn't really very deep (should it be, though), I found myself expecting a twist at the end where the moon goddess was actually the evil one, but no, it was just "This guy's the bad guy because he's bad, you need to kill him" - "Okay" and there we go, not much room for motivation.

Can recommend to fans of the genre, the gameplay is pretty standard but it's built well, looks and sounds great and while it's not earth shattering or anything, it's still a fun game.







The graphics and OST were excellent, especially liked the boss theme (Harpy attack) and a later-game zone theme (Eternal ascent).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2JABPXv2kk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDGGSpXi8Y8

TeaJay fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Feb 2, 2024

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?

Cemetry Gator posted:

The boss battles in the new Prince of Persia are the absolute worst part about the game. They’re just obnoxious at times. I wish I had a better sense of when to parry because it feels so oblique. Obviously I’m doing it at the wrong time, but am I too late, am I too early? The game won’t tell me!

You quickly dont need to worry about that because 95% of moves will be red unparryable ones and the only thing you can parry will be a single obvious 'parry me now for massive damage one'.

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.
There was a single good boss battle in New! Prince of Persia and it's Darius. Unlike every other fight, which all feel overwhelmingly like the product of people who have heard that Devil May Cry is a beloved series of action games built on combos, precise parrying and dodging, and gradual mastery of an encounter, but have no real understanding of how to build and structure such an experience even after mechanically copying the toolset quite satisfactorily, Darius feels like a boss that someone had a goddamn vision for. Someone had thought through a plan of what this guy is about, what the fight is about, what you will get hit with, how you will respond to seeing these moves for the first time, how (this is the really important part coming up lads) a player is supposed to conceivably get from being overwhelmed to comprehending to understanding to mastering the fight, also it has a characteristic vibe and presentation based around one of the certified best platforming modes in all of video games, and, oh, right, his gigantic sword hell moveset is also loving telegraphed, in a way that makes it possible to consistently react to once you get a feel but also in a way that leaves exactly the right amount of variance where when you aren't used to roughly the kinds of things he can do you might still get caught but once you understand what might be coming it becomes possible and rewarding to be thinking a step ahead. Also he has a big flashy ultimate which you have to use all of this theory to fully dodge, and once you do that, you then get to parry the last hit into your own cutscene counter, which feels good as gently caress.

This is also a gigantic game design failure because the best boss in the game is supposed to be Vergil Vahram. I mean come on! Instead, that guy is just a giant wall of bullshit. Whoops, I accidentally the whole screen and my ultimate technically has tiny safe zones but good luck consistently getting into them and staying there with the right timing using this hang time moveset that we haven't started meaningfully teaching you about yet. Look at us, mum, we're being tough but fair! gently caress off.

ultrachrist
Sep 27, 2008

Sakurazuka posted:

You quickly dont need to worry about that because 95% of moves will be red unparryable ones and the only thing you can parry will be a single obvious 'parry me now for massive damage one'.

Yeah. I didn’t parry on bosses other than the yellow one. I just jumped around and dodged.

Sargon does a lot of damage relative to their health. I just blasted damage on safe spots and sometimes on non safe spots because I knew I could take a hit. Athra surges melt their health. Most of them will sit there and eat your arrows. My amulets were all +sword, arrow, air, athra damage. I never really had to master any boss move sets (on normal.)

Barry Convex
Sep 1, 2005

Think of the good things, Pim! The good things!

Like Jesus, candy, and crackerjacks! Ice cream and cake and lots o'laffs!
Grandma, Grandpa, and Uncle Joe! Larry, Curly, and brother Moe!
impressions of the Tales of Kenzera: Zau demo out on Steam, anyone? (I'm traveling for the weekend so won't be able to try it until I get home). Thought the reveal trailer looked really great

Borrowed Ladder
May 4, 2007

monarch of the sleeping marches

SlothfulCobra posted:

Yeah, I understand there are probably people out there who are all about the boss fights (god knows there are lots of those people with Dark Souls), but I'm more about the exploration and platforming and maybe getting into the right rhythm to deal with individual enemies rather than one big fight.

People say they like bossfights as like a final exam of the skills involved with playing the game, but so often it feels like just a whole separate game mode.

I'm the exact same way. I really just want to do platform and traversal stuff with new gadgets and don't actually want to fight any monsters or bosses at all. I had so much fun playing Pseudoregalia because the combat was so limited and it was all about getting across the map. Wish there were more games like it.

Cemetry Gator
Apr 3, 2007

Do you find something comical about my appearance when I'm driving my automobile?
The one thing I’m absolutely hating about the new PoP is the bullshit hard platforming sections, and your rewards are a new skin or a little money.

There’s a lot the game does right, but then it starts doing things to punish you and the rewards don’t match up. I feel like the game needed an additional polish pass to clean up a few rough spots.

Item Getter
Dec 14, 2015
Yeah for sure, I've attempted the one little room where you have to dodge different patterns of rotating saw blades moving across the room for what seems like forever, tried it like a million times and finally gave in and looked at YouTube to see how close I was to the end. Then on the video I saw that the reward is just a pair of pants and that killed my urge to try it again. Though it's relieving if anything to think I'm not missing anything. Which as somebody said is probably the point of putting useless rewards behind the hardest challenges, but of course most of the time there's no way to know the reward without beating the challenge or looking it up.

Also when entering a new room I got a tutorial prompt for an ability that I don't actually have. I must have done a very minor sequence break, felt pretty cool. (The "night temple" on the right side of the upper city, which I guess I was not supposed to be able to enter without the grappling hook-like ability, but I got in without it using the chakram teleport. It gave me a prompt saying press R to pull yourself to enemies with the grappling hook, which I don't have.)

Falcon2001
Oct 10, 2004

Eat your hamburgers, Apollo.
Pillbug

SlothfulCobra posted:

Yeah, I understand there are probably people out there who are all about the boss fights (god knows there are lots of those people with Dark Souls), but I'm more about the exploration and platforming and maybe getting into the right rhythm to deal with individual enemies rather than one big fight.

People say they like bossfights as like a final exam of the skills involved with playing the game, but so often it feels like just a whole separate game mode.

Yeah, even in the souls games I think the bosses are the least interesting part, although I think I'm in the minority.

cant cook creole bream
Aug 15, 2011
I think Fahrenheit is better for weather

Falcon2001 posted:

Yeah, even in the souls games I think the bosses are the least interesting part, although I think I'm in the minority.

Personally, I agree. In Elden Ring, I loved running around and exploring those twisty paths, or running around some rooftops to some obscure ends.
Boss fights always felt like a roadblock I didn't care for so I tried to do them in the simplest and cheesiest ways possible.
In the end, I reached the final boss, felt it took way to long to fight and didn't even bother to retry it after I barely lost the first time. The "story" felt poo poo too, so I just felt like I had found everything I cared for in the game at that point and had no urge to complete it.
By contrast, I spent quite a while on the optional superboss, before that. That felt just way more fun to fight.

cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Feb 4, 2024

Cemetry Gator
Apr 3, 2007

Do you find something comical about my appearance when I'm driving my automobile?
Jesus Christ, did Ubisoft test this? I’ve encountered multiple issues that are quite common where the game freezes up after accepting quests.

Thanks for fixing the character with 8 lines of dialog being voiced by tts, but not taking care of your game breaking bug. I’m glad you got your priorities straight.

Seriously, this game needed another couple of months of polish.

Edit: it’s really frustrating seeing on Reddit that other people are hitting the same error as me on every platform. I can accept bugs that happen rarely, but when scripting breaks the game commonly, and I have seen multiple bugs in that area, it really raises the question why did this get missed when all I did was accept a mission and that broke the game multiple times.

Cemetry Gator fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Feb 5, 2024

ultrachrist
Sep 27, 2008
The game definitely feels unfinished. Bugs, half assed sidequests, big empty areas, characters disappearing from the plot. Fun but definitively would’ve benefited with more time.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!
I just finished Pseudoregalia.

Cool game, imo. Has a very unique and striking vibe. The game nails the feeling of moving around which is the most important thing for a game like it. The environments are fun to explore. The lack of a map is a very interesting creative choice; on one hand, it let me get really familiar with the different areas and it was fun to build the skill of learning where things were. On the other hand, though, I definitely explored the Underbelly like three times looking for a progression item, and I was not thinking "wow, what a novel source of friction that modern games are too afraid to embrace" the third time I did it.

Favorite area was definitely the Empty Bailey. The game really does a good job of having a bunch of areas on a variety of scales; all the cramped rooms make it more impressive when it goes big. Plus it has the best song.

abraham linksys
Sep 6, 2010

:darksouls:

ultrachrist posted:

The game definitely feels unfinished. Bugs, half assed sidequests, big empty areas, characters disappearing from the plot. Fun but definitively would’ve benefited with more time.

i really like the game but it's funny that the massive scale only seems to have been possible because of ubisoft's massive support studio system, but also that is almost certainly why this game is such a hodgepodge. and the bugs are, well, it's an ubisoft game, they haven't shipped a fully functional day-1 (or month-1) game in a long time

if i'm ubi i would have a small team spending however much time between now and when they're allowed to release it on steam polishing it up with bug fixes and maybe a few content improvements (a short free dlc for that one lady, maybe). not sure how many goty 2024 lists this is going to wind up on, but if they can fix it up and get it out on steam, i bet it will be on a lot of 2025 lists!

abraham linksys fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Feb 5, 2024

wyoak
Feb 14, 2005

a glass case of emotion

Fallen Rib
It’s interesting people didn’t like the boss fights in PoP, they were definitely the strongest part of the game for me, there was one fight that I sorta hated but it’s because I couldn’t figure out when the boss would switch sides on me during a move, but other than that they itched that fast pattern-recognition part of my brain nicely

KajiTheMelonMan
Sep 2, 2004

I killed a Tuskarr
Replaying Prime + Prime 2, and I have to say;

To whoever designed the listing of Creatures/Research/etc in Prime; please tell me your filing system, I can't figure it out
To whoever designed the UI/UX for the Start/Options screen (the 3D rotation system) for Prime 2; please tell me how your brain works and why you went with this

(games are still cool tho)

sudonim
Oct 6, 2005

Item Getter posted:

I've attempted the one little room where you have to dodge different patterns of rotating saw blades moving across the room for what seems like forever
I liked these kinds of challenges since they're optional and I was able to tell they were because I was never progress blocked by them. Some of them are pretty tough so some I've had to come back to with more movement abilities for an easier time.

Item Getter posted:

Also when entering a new room I got a tutorial prompt for an ability that I don't actually have. I must have done a very minor sequence break, felt pretty cool. (The "night temple" on the right side of the upper city, which I guess I was not supposed to be able to enter without the grappling hook-like ability, but I got in without it using the chakram teleport. It gave me a prompt saying press R to pull yourself to enemies with the grappling hook, which I don't have.)
I did the same thing lol. Didn't even realize it was a sequence break until you mentioned it.

lih
May 15, 2013

Just a friendly reminder of what it looks like.

We'll do punctuation later.
finally getting around to blasphemous 2 and wow, it's fantastic. the first was good but this is even better? it's so open

Cemetry Gator
Apr 3, 2007

Do you find something comical about my appearance when I'm driving my automobile?

ultrachrist posted:

The game definitely feels unfinished. Bugs, half assed sidequests, big empty areas, characters disappearing from the plot. Fun but definitively would’ve benefited with more time.

Yeah, it feels like a middle draft of a paper, where the form is there, and a lot is coming together, but there’s a lot of tightening up that needs to be done and a fair amount of editing.

The map is huge. But it also stops feeling cohesive because there’s just sooooo much. Exploration becomes a chore because you don’t know if you’re about to unlock a difficult platforming challenge that gives you a coin as a reward, or if you’re finding a new path. It also means the map doesn’t have a great sense of place. The forest is above the sea? Like, Castlevania castles are not the paradigms of coherent design either, but there’s a better sense of flow.

The quests feel awkward. I don’t know why they’re there. You just sort of do them. And then they just sort of drop off.

The story is utter nonsense. I cannot understand what my character is doing or why he’s doing it.

But the game does a lot well. The controls are mostly really good. You just need to rebind the one power to make jumps better. It does suffer from a common problem in Metroidvanias where some powers really only have a couple of uses, but that’s like the difference between an A+ and an A.

The powers are interesting, and there’s a bunch of places that require you to use them in creative ways.

The combat is okay. With the exception of boss battles, fights are mostly fair. I hate the healing delay this game has, but that’s common in a lot of modern games. It’s not as bad as Jedi Outcast where you could cancel the healing move really easily.

Item Getter
Dec 14, 2015

Cemetry Gator posted:

The forest is above the sea?

Since the game takes place on a mountain, I think we can assume that the sea is in front of everything else and the forest is higher up on the slope behind it.... as when you are in the sea area you can see the walls of the main city behind you. And explains other oddities like exiting the cave at the bottom of the map to a cliff overlooking the sky. But yeah in terms of geographical cues it's easy to forget that the game is supposed to be set on a mountain at all, outside of the setting of the game being called Mount Qaf in dialogues.

Cemetry Gator posted:

The quests feel awkward. I don’t know why they’re there. You just sort of do them. And then they just sort of drop off.

Feels like a thing they felt you just have to have if you are making a game, much like the hundreds of pointless journal entries and stone tablets lying around everywhere. To name another recent game, sort of like how Pikmin 4 had to introduce a side quest system to the series, but all the quests were just pointless things like "defeat a total of 100 enemies" that you would be doing anyway just by normally playing the game.

Cemetry Gator posted:

But the game does a lot well. The controls are mostly really good. You just need to rebind the one power to make jumps better.

You mean the one where you have to click the right stick mid-air while jumping to switch between purple/blue blocks? That never stops being awkward

Yeah I think most people would agree it's largely an excellent game mechanically speaking, but poor in terms of the actual context of where you are and what you are doing.

Cemetry Gator
Apr 3, 2007

Do you find something comical about my appearance when I'm driving my automobile?

Item Getter posted:

You mean the one where you have to click the right stick mid-air while jumping to switch between purple/blue blocks? That never stops being awkward

Move it to the left stick. It is so much better because you don’t have to jump, and then quickly hit the right stick. Whoever made that binding clearly never played it on a real controller.

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TeaJay
Oct 9, 2012


I'm trying out Afterimage. Remember there was talk about it earlier, but is there something one should know when starting out, any hidden mechanics or super useful talents you should gun for immediately?

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