p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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RPATDO_LAMD: Mar 22, 2013; 🐘🪠🍆

the integers, not the natural numbers? hosed up imo

# ? Feb 9, 2024 12:18

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 20:42

my homie dhall: Dec 9, 2010; honey, oh please, it's just a machine

Athas posted:

To quote Data.Array:

incredible

# ? Feb 9, 2024 12:21

fritz: Jul 26, 2003

RPATDO_LAMD posted:

the integers, not the natural numbers? hosed up imo

like you've never used -1 to get the last element of an array

# ? Feb 9, 2024 13:56

Xarn: Jun 26, 2015

what's up with the fascination with Lips? I wrote a bunch of Lisp, it was interesting but I would rather go write Prolog than Lisp.

# ? Feb 9, 2024 15:33

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

Xarn posted:

what's up with the fascination with Lips? I wrote a bunch of Lisp, it was interesting but I would rather go write Prolog than Lisp.

its the most influential plang of all time

# ? Feb 9, 2024 15:38

ynohtna: Feb 16, 2007; backwoods compatible; Illegal Hen

if we study the progenitor, learn its weaknesses, then maybe we can finally rid this cursed earth of the entire lot!

# ? Feb 9, 2024 15:50

Dijkstracula: Mar 18, 2003; You can't spell 'vector field' without me, Professor!

I don't know what it is but high school programming curricula are always so bleak

# ? Feb 9, 2024 16:14

Internet Janitor: May 17, 2008; "That isn't the appropriate trash receptacle."

in my high school we had two computer classes: "how to type", and "the first three chapters of a visualbasic textbook while the teacher played solitaire"

# ? Feb 9, 2024 16:18

Athas: Aug 6, 2007; fuck that joker

When I was in high school, I read SICP and it inspired me to go into academic computer science. Now I work at a university and earn 50% of what my industrial peers do, but on the other hand one of my students came by today with a bag of home-made cookies, so it's not all bad. Consider reading SICP.

# ? Feb 9, 2024 16:41

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

my last job was writing clojure in industry for figgies

# ? Feb 9, 2024 16:42

defmacro: Sep 27, 2005; cacio e ping pong

i wish there were good lisp like clojure that compiled into binaries. i get why they don't but being able to cross-compile a binary and ship it to a remote machine to do work is v nice.

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:00

Subjunctive: Sep 12, 2006; ✨sparkle and shine✨

just put it in a container, op, bing bang bong

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:01

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

fennel is a janky beta dealio but it exists

https://fennel-lang.org/

or janet, also jank

https://janet-lang.org/

the selling point of clojure is mainly that its not jank, but that's more a sign of the kinda peeps who touch clojure than any virtue of either the lang or lisps in general

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:02

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

yeah, my impression of clojure is very much that it is made by professionals, and any janky imitation will have lost 95% of the point

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:07

defmacro: Sep 27, 2005; cacio e ping pong

Subjunctive posted:

just put it in a container, op, bing bang bong

love increasing my problems!!

but yeah, the no jank and literal hashmaps is a deal breaker for all of these cute lil lisps. i can just dream about parens i guess.

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:12

Wheany: Mar 17, 2006; Spinya^{ha^{ha^haha}ha}ha_{ha_{ha_haha}ha}ha!; Doctor Rope

me, crying: please, you can use java for teaching now. they fixed "public static void main". it even has a repl.

hello world now looks like this

code:

void main() {
    System.out.println("Hello, World!");
}

ah... don't look at the System.out, pretend that isn't there

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:19

Armitag3: Mar 15, 2020; Forget it Jake, it's cybertown.

Wheany posted:

me, crying: please, you can use java for teaching now. they fixed "public static void main". it even has a repl.

hello world now looks like this
code:
void main() {
    System.out.println("Hello, World!");
}
ah... don't look at the System.out, pretend that isn't there

Garbage.in Garbage.out

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:22

Internet Janitor: May 17, 2008; "That isn't the appropriate trash receptacle."

i'd say "imagine extending logo with a bunch of first-class literals and a rich stdlib so you could do more with it out of the box"

but rebol already exists

i had some hopes for redlang, but then they went in on cryptocurrency, and, well, oof

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:22

mystes: May 31, 2006

Wheany posted:

me, crying: please, you can use java for teaching now. they fixed "public static void main". it even has a repl.

hello world now looks like this
code:
void main() {
    System.out.println("Hello, World!");
}
ah... don't look at the System.out, pretend that isn't there

wait java allows you to have functions outside of classes now? Or is that just for the repl?

I know c# finally added that (although I think it just compiles to static methods in an implicit class) but I thought java still hadn't.

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:23

Wheany: Mar 17, 2006; Spinya^{ha^{ha^haha}ha}ha_{ha_{ha_haha}ha}ha!; Doctor Rope

mystes posted:

wait java allows you to have functions outside of classes now? Or is that just for the repl?

I know c# finally added that (although I think it just compiles to methods in an implicit class) but I thought java still hadn't.

java 21 added unnamed classes and instance main methods, which enable the cleaner hello world

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:25

mystes: May 31, 2006

Wheany posted:

java 21 added unnamed classes and instance main methods, which enable the cleaner hello world

oh nice

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:27

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

java was always good for teaching. a small amount of boilerplate does not harm students nearly as much as you expect.

by comparison python has a severe issue in that loops are all iterator-based, and the recurring magic of things being iterable keeps their own code from being clear to them.

i still broadly favor python as a teaching programming language now, but that is a genuine sticking point.

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:32

Internet Janitor: May 17, 2008; "That isn't the appropriate trash receptacle."

java 37

code:

main {
 out.println("Hello, World!")
}

java 68

code:

println("Hello, World!")

java 97

code:

println 'Hello, World!'

java 126

code:

print hello world

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:34

poemdexter: Feb 18, 2005; Hooray Indie Games!; College Slice

I like groovy for teaching how to program because you can always fall back to java syntax as you go when you want to teach different concepts. Also the groovyConsole is kinda rad.

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:35

poemdexter: Feb 18, 2005; Hooray Indie Games!; College Slice

Internet Janitor posted:

java 37

code:

main {
 out.println("Hello, World!")
}

java 68

code:

println("Hello, World!")

java 97

code:

println 'Hello, World!'

java 126

code:

print hello world

68 and 97 are both valid Groovy syntax!

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:36

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

literally preparing a presentation to argue the dept into switching from c to python for intro programming as we speak. the c intro works real badly, the struggling students get stuck on esoteric detail, while among the stronger students a weird "low-level" macho culture develops where they nonetheless produce mostly garbage code, fail to climb in abstraction, and will no doubt be a source of profit for security people in the future.

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:36

Internet Janitor: May 17, 2008; "That isn't the appropriate trash receptacle."

i think processing is excellent for teaching programming

easy to install, good performance, low boilerplate but close enough to normal java to provide a smooth transition, a simple environment that doesn't immediately beat you over the head with distractions and unnecessary complexity, you can easily save multi-platform executables

and most importantly you can immediately draw images and play sounds and do lots of interesting things out of the box

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:41

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

just start recommending decker and be done with it lol

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:41

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

we have a new guy starting on march 1st and he came by the office�for lunch to meet people

im the only other coder here, so we talked and i was whinging about this decade old php/angularjs thing we have lurching around and he turned kinda white and i was like oh we also have some c# and whatnot and he visibly relaxed lol

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:44

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

the option to use a dedicated teaching language is there, but there'd be some real upsides to a language with some scientific computing, math, and visualization credentials as we funnel a lot of engineering disciplines through our intro courses. we could split it up, but politically i kind of need an easy sell to kick c back up to "systems programming" where id argue it belongs

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:46

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

the option to use a dedicated teaching language is there, but there'd be some real upsides to a language with some scientific computing, math, and visualization credentials as we funnel a lot of engineering disciplines through our intro courses. we could split it up, but politically i kind of need an easy sell to kick c back up to "systems programming" where id argue it belongs

i agree

python is a fine teaching language, despite its idiosyncrasies, and c is a bit too ~close to the metal~ in a way that gets in the way of teaching the basics. its great for systems stuff afterwards

teaching is about the concepts�not efficiency, and you can easily do oo and/or functional in python. also its legal to kill the students who nest list comprehensions.

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:50

Armitag3: Mar 15, 2020; Forget it Jake, it's cybertown.

Carthag Tuek posted:

i agree

python is a fine teaching language, despite its idiosyncrasies, and c is a bit too ~close to the metal~ in a way that gets in the way of teaching the basics. its great for systems stuff afterwards

teaching is about the concepts�not efficiency, and you can easily do oo and/or functional in python. also its legal to kill the students who nest list comprehensions.

i just taught my mentee list comprehensions and now he�s trying to cram them everywhere :allears:

# ? Feb 9, 2024 17:52

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

Armitag3 posted:

i just taught my mentee list comprehensions and now he�s trying to cram them everywhere

lol

i mean they do have their place, but theyre waaaay overused

# ? Feb 9, 2024 18:10

rjmccall: Sep 7, 2007; no worries friend; Fun Shoe

i really like java as an intro language because it leads very naturally into the most important followup skills, encapsulation and data structures. python feels like a more approachable pure intro language but then it�s harder to teach those higher-level skills because python is pretty trash at them

# ? Feb 9, 2024 18:12

crazypenguin: Mar 9, 2005; nothing witty here, move along

I continue to be fond of my local university's strategy of regularly expecting students to learn new languages.

intro 1 is python
intro 2 is java
intro 3 is currently ocaml i think
and c is still required in the arch/os/numerical branch of required courses

# ? Feb 9, 2024 18:33

Athas: Aug 6, 2007; fuck that joker

Standard ML is an excellent teaching language.

# ? Feb 9, 2024 18:47

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

Athas posted:

Standard ML is an excellent teaching language.

at the time, i did pretty well with shorter programs but it turned out i didnt get it at all and anything more complex i attempted to make objects using namespaces & nobody told me why and how that was wrong

# ? Feb 9, 2024 18:55

Plorkyeran: Mar 22, 2007; To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed

Xarn posted:

what's up with the fascination with Lips? I wrote a bunch of Lisp, it was interesting but I would rather go write Prolog than Lisp.

there was a time when the mainstream languages people wrote actual software in did not have closures and higher-order functions were arcane black magic, so lisp seemed incredibly fancy

i do not particularly understand why people act like lisp is still special

# ? Feb 9, 2024 19:16

Ocean of Milk: Jun 25, 2018; oh yeah

Wheany posted:

java 21 added unnamed classes and instance main methods, which enable the cleaner hello world

It should also be noted that easier-entry-for-newcomers was the literal and only justification for adding that to the language. It serves no other purpose and I doubt it will be useful for much else.
I am not sure how I feel about that.

# ? Feb 9, 2024 19:17

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 20:42

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

Ocean of Milk posted:

It should also be noted that easier-entry-for-newcomers was the literal and only justification for adding that to the language. It serves no other purpose and I doubt it will be useful for much else.
I am not sure how I feel about that.

you can write procedural apps without the oo crud now hell yea

# ? Feb 9, 2024 19:22

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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