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dead gay comedy forums)
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Since we are not dealing with a world that has perfectly spherical cows, what happens to businesses that have zero profits?
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Feb 15, 2024 01:49
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BillsPhoenix posted:(In a perfectly competitive, no barrier, theory world) BillsPhoenix posted:In theory perfect world, profit would be limited to a minimum of zero? Al! posted:the word my buddy uses for this type of mentality is "perfectly spherical"
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Feb 15, 2024 01:51
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BillsPhoenix posted:If profit is negative, it will end. If it's simply zero, the company continues in perpetuity as is. if its zero or less then it isnt profit
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Feb 15, 2024 01:54
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scary ghost dog posted:if its zero or less then it isnt profit another very good hint
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Feb 15, 2024 01:55
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scary ghost dog posted:if its zero or less then it isnt profit 
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Feb 15, 2024 01:56
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dead gay comedy forums posted:Since we are not dealing with a world that has perfectly spherical cows, what happens to businesses that have zero profits? They continue to exist? They just stop drawing new influxes of capital.
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Feb 15, 2024 02:01
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what is the utility of a business that does not draw influxes of capital, to a capitalist
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Feb 15, 2024 02:02
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And there are no other capitalists with their own businesses seeking to expand their own capital in the real world, surely?
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Feb 15, 2024 02:05
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You've got this BillsPhoenix
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Feb 15, 2024 02:06
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If capitalist a buys out capitalist b, there's been no change in profits?
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Feb 15, 2024 02:07
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BillsPhoenix posted:If capitalist a buys out capitalist b, there's been no change in profits? where is capitalist b getting the money with which to buy out capitalist a, if capitalist b (and a's) business is generating zero profit
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Feb 15, 2024 02:09
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Well, the business as it was ceases to be, right? What is the condition that allows all companies to operate with zero profit on market?
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Feb 15, 2024 02:11
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edit: dumbass
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Feb 15, 2024 02:13
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BillsPhoenix posted:If capitalist a buys out capitalist b, there's been no change in profits? I call it crapitalism.
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Feb 15, 2024 02:15
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BillsPhoenix posted:If capitalist a buys out capitalist b, there's been no change in profits? the cost of the purchase has to be factored in profit technically always changes with every transaction in and out viewing it as static is an abstraction that works from the perspective of a business owner not for the system as a whole you can't escape entropy you are trying to escape entropy
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Feb 15, 2024 02:17
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BillsPhoenix posted:If it's simply zero, the company continues in perpetuity as is. Now how does this system you're constructing change if we posit the prior existence (such as in the immediately preceding time period) of investors or shareholders? Karach posted:You've got this BillsPhoenix
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Feb 15, 2024 02:20
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Respectfully, I don't think he's ready for the dialectical approach yet. BP, to make this a bit easier, you're mistaking profit with surplus. They're not the same thing. Any enterprise, under any mode of production, can produce a surplus where the value of the product is greater than the value of the inputs (indeed this is the point of the process). But that's not profit. When the surplus is taken by the capitalist for himself under the auspices of "return on investment", that act of theft transforms surplus into profit. This profit is transformed again into capital by the capitalist when they purchase more productive property with which to produce more surplus and then steal that additional surplus as additional profit. This cycle is the core mechanism of capitalism. There is no capitalism without it, meaning it is the sole raison d'etre of the capitalist. There is no motive but the profit motive. Because there is more than one capitalist, this means they're all in mortal competition with each other. If your flow of stolen profits slows or stops, you can't transform as much into capital to buy more property. Barring some random chance event, you will continue to fall behind your competitors whose profit flows continue to multiply and grow, and they will eat you, and then you will become a regular jackoff like everyone else and have to get a real job. So the capitalist is as trapped in the cycle as the worker they exploit, eternally reaching for monopoly.
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Feb 15, 2024 02:34
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dead gay comedy forums posted:Well, the business as it was ceases to be, right? If profit can only be obtained by surplus labor... Where we can open up the western economists arguments that this zero profit world is where capitalism is fundamentally more efficient than communism, because market forces will punish incompetent capitalists, force optimal utilization of resources, and maximize societal utility. Disregarding the flaws in the above argument about communism, and only focusing on the capitalism piece... This indicates not only can capitalism exist without profit, perfect world capitalism must exist without profit.
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Feb 15, 2024 02:44
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Son of Sorrow posted:Respectfully, I don't think he's ready for the dialectical approach yet. Yup, you're spot on lol.
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Feb 15, 2024 02:45
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BillsPhoenix posted:Where we can open up the western economists arguments that this zero profit world is where capitalism is fundamentally more efficient than communism, who the gently caress is making this argument, besides you?
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Feb 15, 2024 02:47
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BillsPhoenix posted:Yup, you're spot on lol. Just go one step at a time. Don't go further than the question you're being asked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXaDMrXK1BE
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Feb 15, 2024 02:54
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rodbeard posted:I call it crapitalism.
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Feb 15, 2024 02:55
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The entire west? I don't want to hit all the fallacies about communism in the argument, there's a lot. But the capitalist side is near universally taught in the US, with the end always being "and that's why capitalism is fundamentally more efficent" https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/082415/pros-and-cons-capitalist-vs-socialist-economies.asp
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Feb 15, 2024 02:55
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🟠
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Feb 15, 2024 02:57
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youre asking what would happen if nails instead went up if you hammered them. its a nonsense argument
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Feb 15, 2024 02:59
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but yes im sure capitalism could theoretically be the most efficient system in the omegaverse or whatever youre on about
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Feb 15, 2024 03:01
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im just a demon though you should probably listen to the people itt who are trying to help you
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Feb 15, 2024 03:02
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BillsPhoenix posted:If profit can only be obtained by surplus labor... what do you think “capital” is?
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Feb 15, 2024 03:04
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Profit as an incentive. Profit as an output via surplus value. Profit as an incentive allows for zero profit capitalism. Profit as an output will become communism when zero profit is achieved. If exploitation of labor is a fundamental tenet of capitalism, then trpf must be true, and communism must be inevitable.
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Feb 15, 2024 03:11
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BillsPhoenix posted:If exploitation of labor is a fundamental tenet of capitalism, then trpf must be true that's right because exploitation of labor IS indeed a fundamental tenet of capitalism or else there would be literally zero reason ever for someone to make hundreds of times more than someone who they employ you cannot get blood from a stone and capital MUST constantly grind for more blood (exploited labor resulting in profits) so that it can defend itself against ever more predatory capitalists who would otherwise take them over and or "disrupt" them and or otherwise use something to ensure that they are the *most* profitable, biggest, able-crush-competitors force to ensure its own survival as a corporate vehicle for wealth to those able to take control of any given entity and constantly doing that leaves less and less for the actual material laborers that said capital relies on, to the point you start to get to things like barely paying people to make money/enshrining slavery into the american constitution and saying it's absolutely legal, cool, and good to be a slaver so long as you own a private prison BP, you appear to have read even less than I have. if you sincerely want the knowledge you claim you want, read capital and read imperialism. if you genuinely cannot read them, why are you trying to get understanding of these topics? what are you trying to change about yourself? because all of your posts indicate you still cannot move past "capitalism is salvageable" which belies an *very* deep ignorance of what exactly capitalism has "done for humanity" especially once there were alternatives available BillsPhoenix posted:and communism must be inevitable. this is not guaranteed, the choice is communism or barbarism/fascism/hell on earth/capitalism/cloud feudalism/another dark ages/take your pick of names for "we hosed up, as a species." Tempora Mutantur has issued a correction as of 03:39 on Feb 15, 2024 |
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Feb 15, 2024 03:17
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BillsPhoenix posted:The entire west? I don't want to hit all the fallacies about communism in the argument, there's a lot. But the capitalist side is near universally taught in the US, with the end always being "and that's why capitalism is fundamentally more efficent" lmao. mfer links investopedia literally one of the greatest moments for a mathy econ student is when they decide to look into solving that problem: how to achieve optimal market conditions in which all businesses attain continuous stability without imposing monopoly pricing (which is bad for society) or without market failure. Incidentally, they figure out that means net zero profit to the whole market. Curious thing The problem is then figuring out what sort of condition leads up to that. They hit the blackboard. In this state, what would be profit in another world means that all enterprises reinvest on themselves equally. In this equal situation, after squaring a lot of maths, all companies on the market also happen to achieve perfect distributive pricing: complete market efficiency. So they go, great! They fine tune things and discover that instead of having multiple enterprises, economies of scale and effort can be attained by consolidated all companies into one single organization - remember, no adversarial monopoly condition here in relation to society - so there is even greater reinvestment efficiency (again, net zero profit). This clicks something in them. How to bring those mathematical models into the real world? Outside of the Austrian school, everybody understands that market policy has to be determined by the state. So these mathy guys go: "well, for a optimal market, the state can organize conditions to create an equal distribution of profits, leading into zero net profit in the whole market..." and then they go holy poo poo. Can you guess what happened there?
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Feb 15, 2024 03:32
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BillsPhoenix posted:Profit as an output will become communism when zero profit is achieved. didn't read this before because I was writing the post lmao now put that post + what I wrote above and guess what happens?
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Feb 15, 2024 03:34
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Feb 15, 2024 03:35
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gradenko_2000 posted:...the import of this result is buried in what appear to the student to be difficult problems in mathematics, rather than a fundamental reason to abandon supply and demand analysis.  fuckin perfect, the whole excerpt
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Feb 15, 2024 03:58
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dead gay comedy forums posted:didn't read this before because I was writing the post lmao The root of our disagreements?
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Feb 15, 2024 04:18
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Al! posted:im just a demon though you should probably listen to the people itt who are trying to help you you've been offered a free whetstone, no harm in using it
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Feb 15, 2024 04:20
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Also when looking for a super generic "that's why capitalism is efficent" the IMF came up. They claim profit (as an output for capitalists to earn) is a requirement of capitalism so... yeah. Did you have something that flipped you from pro capitalism to Marxism? Or was it studying economics itself that did it.
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Feb 15, 2024 04:24
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did you know that you could read 50 pages a day of capital vol 1 and imperialism the highest stage of capitalism and be done in less than a month, and end up with a better understand of the world around you and the workings of capitalism than 99% of english speaking people on the planet both faster and easier than struggling through a million small questions with frustrated posters on the internet just a thought
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Feb 15, 2024 04:31
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if you take adhd meds you can read 50 pages a day pretty easy, or you can take ephedrine+caffiene if you cant afford to go to the doctor and get a prescription
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Feb 15, 2024 04:32
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BillsPhoenix posted:Also when looking for a super generic "that's why capitalism is efficent" the IMF came up. They claim profit (as an output for capitalists to earn) is a requirement of capitalism so... yeah. 1) did you read this post: because if not, go back and do that, then answer: 2) what is your takeaway from reading the excerpt in that post and how does it relate to the ongoing conversation you're driving? what insights about your own reasoning, if any, did it provide you?
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Feb 15, 2024 04:40
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