(Thread IKs:
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i say swears online posted:is it worth your time and safety to organize in an all-volunteer army? elaborate.
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Feb 27, 2024 05:19
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| # ? May 24, 2024 05:41 |
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i see volunteers as being okay with the basic idea of a state, as well as being an agent of it, as opposed to conscripts. i could also see a volunteer troop used to enact various...actions as part of a revolutionary group, but at arm's length. i could also see veterans incorporated, but an active-duty member in good standing is either a deep mole or will get you all arrested
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Feb 27, 2024 05:23
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I mean it comes down to the specifics of your historical moment. There's over a million people in the American armed forces, and they seem to be very poorly and weakly indoctrinated into the structures of American imperialism. If we're to set our sights as ridiculously high as to consider whether the entire armed forces could instantly be swayed to a communist revolution then the answer is an obvious no, there's a shitload of reactionary psychopaths in there and even more worthless liberal children, but if we're to consider whether a legitimate and worthwhile organized revolutionary vanguard might make use of some large number of american servicemen then i strongly doubt that such a thing would be impossible. The issue, as always, is that such a vanguard party does not exist and there seems to be very little movement toward the organization of one in a time of ever quickly approaching collapse of so many of the imperialist structures that have defined not only the american state but the world itself for longer than most people have been alive. i say swears online posted:i see volunteers as being okay with the basic idea of a state, as well as being an agent of it, as opposed to conscripts. i could also see a volunteer troop used to enact various...actions as part of a revolutionary group, but at arm's length. i could also see veterans incorporated, but an active-duty member in good standing is either a deep mole or will get you all arrested I think this would be true for police, but seems to me to be a fundamental misapprehension of what the average serviceman actually is. They call them "grunts" for a reason, they're not ideologically trained in any rigorous sense, they're not tested on their commitment to imperialism in any real way. The hosed up thing that I think a lot of westerners tend to gloss over in their apprehension of the world is that it is actually pretty easy to create a social structure in which a person is capable of performing terrible violence upon helpless people without actually believing that it is ultimately the right thing to do, there's a reason that so many troops end up with PTSD and so few police ever do. Flournival Dixon has issued a correction as of 05:32 on Feb 27, 2024 |
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Feb 27, 2024 05:29
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you can't set hard and fast rules when organizations vary so wildly in size and tactics. if you're the swamp maoists waging guerilla warfare, yeah you should probably side-eye the troop trying to join up. if you're not a revolutionary group waging resistance against the state i can't really see it mattering if a soldier wants to join the DSA or PSL even unless they're in intel, then you toss them out with the cops regardless
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Feb 27, 2024 05:33
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soVladimir I Lenin, "Lecture on the 1905 Revolution" posted:Militarism can never and under no circumstances be defeated and destroyed, except by a victorious struggle of one section of the national army against the other section. It is not sufficient simply to denounce, revile and “repudiate” militarism, to criticize and prove that it is harmful; it is foolish peacefully to refuse to perform military service. The task is to keep the revolutionary consciousness of the proletariat tense and train its best elements, not only in a general way, but concretely, so that when popular ferment reaches the highest pitch, they will put themselves at the head of the revolutionary army.
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Feb 27, 2024 05:34
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god loving drat it lenin makes it so clear every single time how the gently caress did westerners allow themselves to ignore lenin for 50 years im so annoyed that i had to be a leftcom dipshit for like 5 years before i ever read proper theory
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Feb 27, 2024 05:41
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a quarter of US troops are food insecure https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/04/politics/military-food-insecurity/index.html Black recruits are overrepresented in the Army, Navy, and Airforce compared to the demographics of the civilian population. The upper ranks of the US military are whiter than the US population as a whole. quote:Racial diversity decreases at the upper echelons of the military. While the officer corps has similar levels of racial diversity as the general population, those with higher ranks—generals in the air force, army, and marine corps, and admirals in the coast guard and navy—are disproportionately white. There is an even greater ethnic disparity in the top ranks. many of the same contradictions that exist in Western countries exist in their militaries, and sometimes are heightened. see the WW3 thread for more details on the actual state of western militaries.
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Feb 27, 2024 05:46
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I understand that the peculiar circumstances of the USA created a bunch of tremendous notions, but if Aaron Bushnell can happen in volunteer forces, then I believe it is rather self-evident IMHO the question that American socialists and communists should be asking is how, within present context, people in military can be reached out
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Feb 27, 2024 05:52
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if active-duty volunteer troops are ripe for organizing, does that also mean that it's a good strategy to infiltrate the army, i.e. sign up with intent? i know that was a thing in 1916, but conscript-free it just feels ripe with danger and counterproductive outcomes. there's no true critical mass to success in the 2024 US army imo you can pick up the disaffected, yes, but discharged vets are a different thing altogether
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Feb 27, 2024 05:54
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I think creating propaganda aimed at converting soldiers would be more productive than enlisting to organize cadres within it. what you'd want in a revolutionary situation is for the rank-and-file to side with the revolution or at least lay down their arms. trying to convert from within just seems like asking for a very long stay at leavenworth
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Feb 27, 2024 06:00
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I think creating propaganda aimed at converting soldiers would be more productive than enlisting to organize cadres within it. what you'd want in a revolutionary situation is for the rank-and-file to side with the revolution or at least lay down their arms. trying to convert from within just seems like asking for a very long stay at leavenworth yeah i think this is what i was getting at
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Feb 27, 2024 06:01
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i say swears online posted:if active-duty volunteer troops are ripe for organizing, does that also mean that it's a good strategy to infiltrate the army, i.e. sign up with intent? i know that was a thing in 1916, but conscript-free it just feels ripe with danger and counterproductive outcomes. there's no true critical mass to success in the 2024 US army imo Honestly, for that to be discussed seriously, it better be done by one hell of a Maoist group that has concluded an excellent class analysis of the armed forces and overall context. But "infiltration" in a more loose sense, to basically use the armed forces as means to train people into soldiering, iirc that is done already by many gangs and criminal factions in the US.
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Feb 27, 2024 06:03
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You'd have to build class consciousness and, like Lenin says, you have to keep revolutionary consciousness of the proletariat tense. Currently we have zero consciousness to work with, no organization, no vanguard, nothing at all. Trying to infiltrate and recruit within the army in the current circumstances might not be productive, but in future circumstances where an anti-imperialist movement actually existed, many more things are possible than in the current moment. To write off that avenue before even doing the most basic and fundamental tasks of revolution would be ultimately foolish and self-damning. I think propaganda aimed at servicemen might be a lot more sensible in even the best circumstances than active infiltration though, that's probably pretty true.
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Feb 27, 2024 06:04
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I think creating propaganda aimed at converting soldiers would be more productive than enlisting to organize cadres within it. what you'd want in a revolutionary situation is for the rank-and-file to side with the revolution or at least lay down their arms. trying to convert from within just seems like asking for a very long stay at leavenworth from what I can glean being outside the US, deffo agreed
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Feb 27, 2024 06:05
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lenin wasn't fond of the narodniks whose grand idea was to live amongst the peasants in a haphazard disorganized way, preach at them and then wait for socialism to appear. """Infiltrating""" the army as a lone guy trying to convert soldiers sounds about as moronic
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Feb 27, 2024 06:07
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i just think there's a fundamental difference with a predominantly-conscript army because the communists are already there because they were forced to be. propaganda is much more effective from this position, but also more effective at whom it goes toward
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Feb 27, 2024 06:09
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there's a thread in gip where a bunch of troops are asking for a leftist organization to join but it needs to be without pesky communists or people who oppose American foreign policy it's pretty funny
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Feb 27, 2024 06:10
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mila kunis posted:there's a thread in gip where a bunch of troops are asking for a leftist organization to join but it needs to be without pesky communists or people who oppose American foreign policy it's pretty funny i would say the local anarchists but recent events are probably going to make even them a no-go
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Feb 27, 2024 06:11
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i say swears online posted:i just think there's a fundamental difference with a predominantly-conscript army because the communists are already there because they were forced to be. propaganda is much more effective from this position, but also more effective at whom it goes toward it also took a massive catastrophic social and military breakdown for said conscripts to become the backbone of bolshevism in 1917
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Feb 27, 2024 06:11
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mila kunis posted:it also took a massive catastrophic social and military breakdown for said conscripts to become the backbone of bolshevism in 1917 maybe the stochastic infiltration is via payroll
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Feb 27, 2024 06:14
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different parts of the military are gonna have diff revolutionary potential like the kiel mutiny and freikorps were both from the same generation of german military ppl
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Feb 27, 2024 06:16
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mila kunis posted:it also took a massive catastrophic social and military breakdown for said conscripts to become the backbone of bolshevism in 1917 but one guy did a thing! let me proceed to forget that class traitors are going to statistically happen and say some increasingly bombastic nonsense
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Feb 27, 2024 06:16
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mila kunis posted:there's a thread in gip where a bunch of troops are asking for a leftist organization to join but it needs to be without pesky communists or people who oppose American foreign policy it's pretty funny Among troops that seem to be amendable like half of them are just trying to not feel bad
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Feb 27, 2024 06:17
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Brain Candy posted:but one guy did a thing! let me proceed to forget that class traitors are going to statistically happen and say some increasingly bombastic nonsense i say swears online posted:hey sorry comrades i got a huge signing bonus i already spent on a camaro that they're threatening to take away so i had to give sarge my telegram password
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Feb 27, 2024 06:19
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mila kunis posted:it also took a massive catastrophic social and military breakdown for said conscripts to become the backbone of bolshevism in 1917
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Feb 27, 2024 06:19
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FirstnameLastname posted:different parts of the military are gonna have diff revolutionary potential I think in both Wiemar and Nazi Germany it was troops and officers from Navy and funny enough the police that seemed to be the most sympathetic to the leftists, while the Army and Air Force was a bastion of reaction, the US has a very different dynamic where the military is far less ideologically committed than the police and intelligence services are the most reliable reactionary forces.
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Feb 27, 2024 06:39
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:I think in both Wiemar and Nazi Germany it was troops and officers from Navy and funny enough the police that seemed to be the most sympathetic to the leftists, while the Army and Air Force was a bastion of reaction, the US has a very different dynamic where the military is far less ideologically committed than the police and intelligence services are the most reliable reactionary forces. us airforce brass is famously filled with young earth christians. which ime means they worship capital triumphant and venerate the us as It's instrument, and are very much not fertile ground
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Feb 27, 2024 06:50
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i never even considered officers, they are straight out of the question in any branch but air force in particular
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Feb 27, 2024 06:59
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i think the villain in the rock was a marine colonel and he was portrayed sympathetically
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Feb 27, 2024 07:00
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Brain Candy posted:us airforce brass is famously filled with young earth christians. which ime means they worship capital triumphant and venerate the us as It's instrument, and are very much not fertile ground I was just speaking about the military as a whole, but yeah within the branches the Air Force or Marines would probably be on average the least fertile grounds. But on average, the military is by miles the only significant locus of power I can think of where a significant number of troops and junior officers have any prayer of switching sides in the US.
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Feb 27, 2024 07:04
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:I was just speaking about the military as a whole, but yeah within the branches the Air Force or Marines would probably be on average the least fertile grounds. But on average, the military is by miles the only significant locus of power I can think of where a significant number of troops and junior officers have any prayer of switching sides in the US. the problem with lumpen though is they are in it for the money and you don't have it
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Feb 27, 2024 07:08
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surely the swamp maoists can knock out a bad tooth
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Feb 27, 2024 07:10
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i say swears online posted:i never even considered officers, they are straight out of the question in any branch but air force in particular Yeah at best you’re going to get like Robert Evans types of radlibs among even the most “leftist” officers. Literally every exception I can think of in American history since the 1880s who was an ex military officer either got kicked out deliberately or only came around after they had been out of the military for some time.
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Feb 27, 2024 07:11
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:I was just speaking about the military as a whole, but yeah within the branches the Air Force or Marines would probably be on average the least fertile grounds. But on average, the military is by miles the only significant locus of power I can think of where a significant number of troops and junior officers have any prayer of switching sides in the US. Raskolnikov38 posted:I think creating propaganda aimed at converting soldiers would be more productive than enlisting to organize cadres within it. what you'd want in a revolutionary situation is for the rank-and-file to side with the revolution or at least lay down their arms. trying to convert from within just seems like asking for a very long stay at leavenworth
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Feb 27, 2024 07:13
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Yeah at best you’re going to get like Robert Evans types of radlibs among even the most “leftist” officers. Literally every exception I can think of in American history since the 1880s who was an ex military officer either got kicked out deliberately or only came around after they had been out of the military for some time. an officer will inititiate revolution based on personal grievances or at the end of a bayonet, that's about it chapo likes to be coy about an officers' coup which yes may actually be the most direct path to an anti-imperialist government but they definitely mean captains and majors instead of colonels
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Feb 27, 2024 07:14
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Brain Candy posted:the problem with lumpen though is they are in it for the money and you don't have it I don’t know if Lumpen would apply most enlisted any more than the average American, (which well…) at least my understanding of what Lumpen means would apply to more like the cops that need the privileges and fat salaries. It’s just that enlisted troops are still almost as isolated and hopeless of real change as another group of young working class Americans. My sense is that the military has about the same degree of class conciseness as the general public in terms of actual commitment or indoctrination which isn’t great but is a unique weakness of the American system because I don’t think that has ever been the case except with conscript armies.
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Feb 27, 2024 07:19
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:Depends how granular you wanna get, because I bet you'd find significant differences between specialties within the same branch. e.g. in the Air Force enlisted ranks a lot of your combat specialties are gonna be extremely hoorah and about as revolutionary as marine infantry, and MPs are cops, but the further you get from that the better your chances are going to be. They're still not gonna be great but the odds are much better in places like sheet metal shops and chow halls than say the pararescue barracks those chow halls used to be a lot more revolutionary when it was the military feeding the military instead of neoliberalized to contractors
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Feb 27, 2024 07:19
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i say swears online posted:an officer will inititiate revolution based on personal grievances or at the end of a bayonet, that's about it I think they’re saying it would be a liberal, not leftist coup essentially trying to keep the system alive by forcing through necessary reforms, which I think they’re “jokingly” hoping for as it is just unfortunately the only remotely possible outcome that doesn’t involve massive bloodshed or acceleration into fascism and then even more massive bloodshead. Kinda like Portugal.
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Feb 27, 2024 07:23
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If someone is going to throw lumpenproletariat around without just a teeny tiny bit of class analysis of the United States for the year of our lord of 2024, it's basically semantic mush
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Feb 27, 2024 07:25
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| # ? May 24, 2024 05:41 |
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(or anywhere else for that matter, just emphasized to the current topic)
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Feb 27, 2024 07:25
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