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I think Gihren annihilating the feddies reserve fleet with a giant laser put paid to any thoughts of pursuit against withdrawing Zeon remnants.
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Feb 29, 2024 17:32
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I'm not actually certain what reforms the Federation could have instituted to stop the rise of Zeon, because Zeon wasn't originally a movement of real political grievances. Zeon as a political entity was birthed by an individual aristocrat family seizing power in one colony group and then waging an aggressive genocidal war against everyone else, including the other colonies in the name of control. Said other colonies clearly did not agree with Zeon that conditions were bad enough to warrant revolution and literally all of them refused to join said revolution despite Zeon's overwhelming initial military superiority.
Kanos fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 17:33
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i think we're meant to take the grievances of the original zeon zum deikun as real political grievances
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Feb 29, 2024 17:55
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Zeon Zum Deikun's primary proposed policy is "almost everyone on earth moves into space and everyone establishes a joint conservatory organization to protect Earth". It's simply not remotely plausible in any sense, given that there is a zero percent chance everyone on Earth wants to leave Earth.
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Feb 29, 2024 17:59
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Kanos posted:Zeon Zum Deikun's primary proposed policy is "almost everyone on earth moves into space and everyone establishes a joint conservatory organization to protect Earth". It's simply not remotely plausible in any sense, given that there is a zero percent chance everyone on Earth wants to leave Earth. Until you promise them cool robots
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Feb 29, 2024 18:00
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To be fair to Zeon, at the time 50-80% (it's inconsistent) of humanity already lives in space. Still implausible considering the numbers in the literal billions involved but "we move people off the planet" does sound slightly more plausible when 80% of the population already lives off-planet. Of course the OYW showed why that was a terrible idea considering that the vast majority of it's literal billions of death happened due to space colonies being effectively sitting ducks.
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Feb 29, 2024 18:08
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Unicorn made it literal text that the spacenoids got screwed over and by the 50th war in short succession it's pretty clear that the federation itself leads to the conditions for new antagonists to rise up
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Feb 29, 2024 18:36
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A lot of that is Fukui though.
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Feb 29, 2024 18:38
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Unicorn made it literal text that the embryonic Federation government inserted a line into a legal document that stated that if magic space people emerged in the future they should be given priority in the government years before people lived in space colonies en masse and decades before Zeon proposed the idea of newtypes. It's not particularly concerned with being coherent! The Federation and the colonies existed in a state of relative peace and prosperity(and continuing expansion, given Side 7 is under construction) for nearly 80 years prior to the Zabi family staging their revolution. Again, literally every other colony refused to join the Zeon revolution, including several of them resisting the idea to the point of their own total destruction. It's the barest simple logic that if the Federation was truly awful that at least one of the other colony groups would have gone "man, you guys have a good point, gently caress the Feddies" and joined in rather than quite literally fighting to the death against the idea. Zeon had all the cards in their hands at the start of the war. The "new antagonists" that continually rise up are almost all lost causers chasing the Zeon dream from the original OYW until you hit the F91 era and they finally finish dying off and get replaced by "everyone from Jupiter is a monster". The sole antagonist faction in the early UC that isn't just more Zeon lost causers are the Titans, who are only able to come to power specifically because Zeon lost causers keep trying to start wars. Kanos fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 18:48
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Even without later UC you'd have to ignore half of the original series and everything of Zeta until Neo Zeon shows up to defend the federation that hard but you'll just ramble on anyways so whatever
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Feb 29, 2024 19:09
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The Federation is the US government. Zeon are the Jan 6ers. You can acknowledge the many and varied flaws of the former while still going "gently caress those guys" to the latter.
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Feb 29, 2024 19:13
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ImpAtom posted:The Federation is the US government. Zeon are the Jan 6ers. You can acknowledge the many and varied flaws of the former while still going "gently caress those guys" to the latter. This is a fairly good comparison, given that Zeta was brought up. The AEUG's original goal was to fix the problems with the government from within - it's why Blex is involved with the Federation parliament - rather than to throw the whole thing out.
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Feb 29, 2024 19:22
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ImpAtom posted:The Federation is the US government. Zeon are the Jan 6ers. You can acknowledge the many and varied flaws of the former while still going "gently caress those guys" to the latter. In Fukui's brain the Federation is literally the Universal Century's continuation of American foreign policy.
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Feb 29, 2024 20:06
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Kanos posted:Zeon Zum Deikun's primary proposed policy is "almost everyone on earth moves into space and everyone establishes a joint conservatory organization to protect Earth". It's simply not remotely plausible in any sense, given that there is a zero percent chance everyone on Earth wants to leave Earth. bro thats literally how the universal century got started Kanos posted:
there's no evidence of this. Especially considering what we learn about the blue team in ZZ suggests the opposite.
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Feb 29, 2024 20:10
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I think there's a lot of evidence that we're supposed to be sympathetic to Zeon broadly, though obviously not as lead by the Zabis. Char's whole deal in Zeta , the way the colonized people of Earth sided with Zeon (as shown in ZZ), the fact that Char claiming to be the true successor to his father gets massive popular support (even outside of rallies, people see him on the train and go wild), the fact that the federation keeps making new groups of fascist supercops who aren't accountable to anyone (Londo Bell is just the Titans 2.0. even if they're less evil about it they're completely capable of all the same things, plus then there's Hathaway). And that's without leaving Tomino's UC
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Feb 29, 2024 20:30
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The best way to make sure that there's no more Zeon after the One Year War is to just give suffrage and voting rights to Spacenoids. It's loving insane that being able to have political rights in the Federation is contingent purely on "Do you live in space or not" because it seems like any policymaker with half a brain would go "No, if you don't give the majority of the human race political rights, they're going to not be happy with rule by an elite." Like, gently caress, the Romans figured that out with the goddamned Social War.
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Feb 29, 2024 21:50
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Fivemarks posted:The best way to make sure that there's no more Zeon after the One Year War is to just give suffrage and voting rights to Spacenoids. It's loving insane that being able to have political rights in the Federation is contingent purely on "Do you live in space or not" because it seems like any policymaker with half a brain would go "No, if you don't give the majority of the human race political rights, they're going to not be happy with rule by an elite." They could get away with it if they just gerrymandered space.
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Feb 29, 2024 21:53
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https://twitter.com/retroanimechris/status/1763019898437927020?s=20
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Feb 29, 2024 22:45
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Fivemarks posted:The best way to make sure that there's no more Zeon after the One Year War is to just give suffrage and voting rights to Spacenoids. It's loving insane that being able to have political rights in the Federation is contingent purely on "Do you live in space or not" because it seems like any policymaker with half a brain would go "No, if you don't give the majority of the human race political rights, they're going to not be happy with rule by an elite." Is it actually outright stated anywhere that spacenoids don't have suffrage? IIRC Cameron Bloom was from Side 6 and he was a government official in CCA, and I'm fairly sure Blex Forer was a spacenoid.
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Mar 1, 2024 01:09
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Stuff in Origin shows that the Colonies do have a parliament/assembly so presumably they have voting power for that but like all colonies I'd imagine the Federation has veto power or can just ignore it
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Mar 1, 2024 01:56
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UC's problem ultimately boils down to that Zeon, the side representing the colonized and anti-imperialist factions of humanity, was already delibrately set up to be the villain, with them being the first to initate the all infamous colony drop (as well as the Zabis taking over and establishing a monarchy via plot device). This basically gives all credence and fuel to the idea of the Federation being the lesser evil and justifies the status quo continuing as is. Its almost like atrocity propaganda. It doesn't matter how many legitimate grievances Zeon/Spacenoids have, they are all irrelevant in light of them having done Operation British, the Feddies are the ones who win in the end, and various other conclusions. This is ultimately not surprising considering Japan's place in the US alliance system, because the while the creators of Gundam fundamentally see plenty of issues with Pax America, they are generally unwilling to see or realize a world where that gets upended because of the privildged position within that peace (see something like Patlabor 2 for a more direct critique but also wishywashy answer ala Gundam). If Zeon is Imperial Japan, the Federation is post WWII Japan. FWIW, Hathaway's Flash attempts to resolve this contradiction by getting rid of the 'excuse of Zeon' and actively engage with the questions of resistance against colonialism, though it still has a somewhat wishywashy (but better) answer that Hathaway's actions fundamentally drive the impetus for action to finally topple the Federation, now that it no longer has excuses for its violence.
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Mar 1, 2024 11:55
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Iriscoral posted:UC's problem ultimately boils down to that Zeon, the side representing the colonized and anti-imperialist factions of humanity, was already delibrately set up to be the villain, with them being the first to initate the all infamous colony drop (as well as the Zabis taking over and establishing a monarchy via plot device). This basically gives all credence and fuel to the idea of the Federation being the lesser evil and justifies the status quo continuing as is. I think UC Gundam makes very half-hearted attempts at distinguishing between Zeonism and Zabism, which is a shame, because manga or a show exploring that would be cool (give me a story about contolist and Zeonist resistance to Zabism on Munzo during the months immediately preceding the OYW), and because to an extent it would fix some of this problem. It's way too late now to make this change; it would have needed one of the mainstream UC entries to directly address where the various Principality of Zeon successor entities exist across that divide, and explicitly deal with the way that late-UC Char positions himself as an anti-Zabist Zeonist but is all too happy to coopt Zabist iconography and actively court Zabist remnants by playing into the Zabist myth that the Principality inherited Deikun's political will (because he's an opportunistic piece of poo poo). But this is a franchise about giant robots shooting each other up, and neither Gundam creators or Gundam fans want characters to sit around for 15-25 minutes discussing political theory. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 12:52
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^^ haha, same thoughts ^^ I think there's an important divide between Zeon-the-faction and Zeon-the-ideology, especially after the OYW. Zeon-the-faction is straight up cartoonishly evil. They're a movement led by a singular family of decadent nobles that have concentrated as much power as possible in their hands and have used the philosophy of a dead political figure(who they may or may not have assassinated, as it's left deliberately vague) as set dressing to justify a genocidal war of conquest whose openly practiced policy is "submit to us or we will kill every man, woman, and child and then use the empty shells of their homes as ammunition to kill our other enemies". They border on Star Wars Empire levels of "whoa, maybe turn it down a notch". Zeon-the-ideology isn't evil or even really wrong. It's a movement that comes into being because the OYW irreparably broke everything and the constant aftershocks and fallout of that conflict prevented any attempt to even effectively staunch the bleeding, nevermind effect meaningful repairs. Life in both space and on Earth starts to suck increasingly more and more for anyone who isn't part of the shrinking ranks of the political elite, and the people with influence and power who are good enough people to want to actually make an attempt are increasingly sidelined or simply die off in the process of trying to help(Blex and Hayato are examples here). In this situation of hopeless despair, people start to need something to cling to in the belief that something can possibly change, and the only symbol that ever credibly resisted the status quo was Zeon. The atrocities get sanded off or deliberately memory holed because the point isn't necessarily "we love the Zabis"(unless your name is Gato or Delaz, of course), it's "things cannot continue as they are and we're rallying against the status quo". Early CCA Char, when he's shmoozing everyone up to set up for his Axis play, is a good example here. He talks about the plight of the colonists at Sweetwater and openly negotiates with the Federation to try to gain the resources to improve things. He's lying, of course, because he's setting up for his own genocide play, but it's extremely easy to understand why people would go "hallelujah we finally have a savior with some clout" and follow him. I have issues with a fair amount of Unicorn's stuff but I do quite enjoy the bit at Palau where they show what post-CCA colonist life is like and where people are functionally praying to Zeon, because it's a good illustration of how Zeon would have had such staying power as a concept despite the Zabis committing so many atrocities that they make Hitler and Stalin look gentle. Kanos fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 13:06
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It's important to remember that the AEUG is basically a Contolist resistance faction battling Earth tyranny, even if the Gryps Conflict has a fair few complicating factors.
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Mar 1, 2024 13:12
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Lemon-Lime posted:But this is a franchise about giant robots shooting each other up, and neither Gundam creators or Gundam fans want characters to sit around for 15-25 minutes discussing political theory. thinking bout Dougram's two episode Land Reform Arc
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Mar 1, 2024 13:13
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Lemon-Lime posted:But this is a franchise about giant robots shooting each other up, and neither Gundam creators or Gundam fans want characters to sit around for 15-25 minutes discussing political theory.  Also I broadly agree with everyone's takes on Zeon, there's a lot of interesting stuff that make it a good tragedy that really shouldn't be flattened the way it often is. There are a lot of good reasons why people might fight for Zeon or be sympathetic or remember it fondly. The alternative was very bad, the Federation aren't quite cartoonishly evil but it's not hard to see why people would rally against them. But of course the leadership of Zeon are the kinds of people who are happily doing Operation British, and the well is forever poisoned. A system is what it does, and what Zeon does is drop big things on earth and kill a lot of people. And yet people will still try to find any alternative to an intolerable status quo chrome line fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 13:15
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Runa posted:thinking bout Dougram's two episode Land Reform Arc I wholly and sincerely love Dougram and the land reform arc is a big part of why, which makes me sad that it's unlikely we'll ever have another show like it. Kanos posted:Zeon-the-ideology isn't evil or even really wrong. It's a movement that comes into being because the OYW irreparably broke everything and the constant aftershocks and fallout of that conflict prevented any attempt to even effectively staunch the bleeding, nevermind effect meaningful repairs. I think you need to further distinguish between Zeonism (the political ideology of Zeon Zum Deikun, which is never really fully explored but seems to more or less boil down to "no taxation without representation," with many of its adherents also being contolists to some degree or another, and which actually becomes realised in a limited way in the form of the pre-OYW independent Republic of Side 3), and the post-OYW remnant Zeonism. The latter is essentially some kind of Lost-Cause-ish ideology named after the Principality, where everyone in charge politely pretends that the Zabis were right, that the Principality was the continuation of Zeon Zum Deikun's political ideology, and that the Federation must be fought because of what they did to the Principality, which is extended by proxy by everyone participating to represent all Spacenoids (which is what the Zabis claimed). Axis Zeon, Neo Zeon, and the Unicorn Zeon remnants are all explicitly Remnant Zeonists. Char is an ardent contolist, and an anti-Zabist for purely personal reasons, but very clearly does not give a poo poo about Zeonism as a political ideology. e; I'm pretty sure we never see any post-OYW OG-Zeonists depicted in anything, but also IMO it's genuinely impossible for post-OYW UC as a setting to not contain people who are agitating for colonial independence from the Federation separate from Remnant Zeonism, and those factions would be more direct ideological descendants of Deikun's Zeonism than any of the Remnant Zeonist factions. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 13:30
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Lemon-Lime posted:I wholly and sincerely love Dougram and the land reform arc is a big part of why, which makes me sad that it's unlikely we'll ever have another show like it. I do basically agree that it's meaningful to separate Remnants from just Zeon followers - there's a lot of Lost Causers in the shows we see who are absolutely drinking the Zabi koolaid long after the fight is over that are specifically nursing a grudge about the war rather than simply turning to Zeonism for some kind of hope. The Delaz Fleet is the biggest example. I think Char's Neo Zeon and the Sleeves are a little complex in ways that differentiate them from Zabi remnants like Delaz and the Axis Fleet, though. CCA Neo Zeon is basically completely divorced from the Zabis in philosophy and objective but is utilizing Zabi methods(extreme violence/atrocities) to achieve Deikun's ideological goals(forcing humanity to migrate into space en masse) rather than simply going for Zabi-style governmental overthrow and conquest. The Sleeves have basically lost Char's Neo Zeon's ideology but are still holding their organization together through hero-worship of Char Aznable(in the form of Full Frontal) because Char Aznable was the last symbol they had that gave them a hope of any kind of success. Their stated goal is a lot closer to the Zabis(destroy the Federation and establish colonial dominance) but they're trying to do it through much less openly belligerent means(economic blockade), though that of course is probably largely down to lack of means to try to achieve direct military victory rather than actual restraint. Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 14:16
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Kanos posted:I think Char's Neo Zeon and the Sleeves are a little complex in ways that differentiate them from Zabi remnants like Delaz and the Axis Fleet, though. CCA Neo Zeon is basically completely divorced from the Zabis in philosophy and objective but is utilizing Zabi methods(extreme violence/atrocities) to achieve Deikun's ideological goals(forcing humanity to migrate into space en masse). The Sleeves have basically lost their unifying ideology but are still holding their organization together through hero-worship of Char Aznable(in the form of Full Frontal) because Char Aznable was the last symbol they had that gave them a hope of any kind of success. I don't think Remnant Zeonism has to be explicitly Zabist (it can be, as is the case of Axis Zeon and the Sleeves, which both use Mineva as a figurehead because she's a Zabi family member); rather, the unifying element of Remnant Zeonism is a failure to reject the Principality's legitimacy and the Zabist claim that it represented all Spacenoids. CCA Neo Zeon is a faction being helmed by a charismatic and sociopathic manipulator who's using his claim of direct descendance from Zeon Zum Deikun as a way to rally Remnant Zeonists to his cause (which happens to be extremist contolism with basically no shits given about colonial independence, but the rank and file don't know this). Full Frontal exists specifically because Char set himself up to be hero-worshipped this way. The Sleeves and the UC96 Zeon remnants do share an ideology (the destruction of the Federation state, and Spacenoid independence), they just don't agree on how that ideology should be implemented (a forever guerilla war vs. strongarming all the colonies into embargoing Earth) and don't share leadership. (Anyway, this is a lot of words typed up about fantasy politics.) Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 14:34
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Fantasy politics are way more fun and less depressing to talk about than real politics.
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Mar 1, 2024 15:25
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https://twitter.com/G_Witch_M/status/1763477627938156932?t=kKVva8IXGtX9xhpCjfJrGg&s=19 Aerial stole Shaddiq's open shirt drip
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Mar 1, 2024 15:31
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I for one can't get down with Zeonism, Contolism, or Zabi-ism as ideologies. One of these is just goes "Well because we can't have independence or equal rights, we should be ruled by an aristocracy", one of these is about as ecofascist as Malthusianism, and the third is just more fascism.
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Mar 1, 2024 15:33
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Contolism is funny because it's simultaneously incredibly optimistic(humanity has the infinite potential of the stars beating within their chests and is on the cusp of evolving into a superior species) and incredibly pessimistic(humanity has hosed up the earth and literally cannot be trusted to change their ways or live on earth responsibly so we have to force everyone into space and make earth a walled nature preserve).
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Mar 1, 2024 15:42
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Fivemarks posted:I for one can't get down with Zeonism, Contolism, or Zabi-ism as ideologies. One of these is just goes "Well because we can't have independence or equal rights, we should be ruled by an aristocracy", one of these is about as ecofascist as Malthusianism, and the third is just more fascism. The weird aristocracy thing is just Zabism, I'm pretty sure. The Side 3 Republic/Republic of Munzo/first Republic of Zeon just gets represented as a regular parliamentary democracy most of the time. e; vv ninjewtsu posted:what is the actual difference between OG zeonism and contolism? as i understood it contolism is just a continuation of the original zeon's ideology. i guess it doesn't have the nonapplicable political systems stuff concerning equal representation in the government? Yeah, contolism is just the "Earth is sacred and we need to vacate it so it can heal, everyone move to space so you can evolve into empaths and world peace can happen" philosophy, minus the whole "space colonies should be independent from the Federation" political ideology. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 15:50
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Kanos posted:Contolism is funny because it's simultaneously incredibly optimistic(humanity has the infinite potential of the stars beating within their chests and is on the cusp of evolving into a superior species) and incredibly pessimistic(humanity has hosed up the earth and literally cannot be trusted to change their ways or live on earth responsibly so we have to force everyone into space and make earth a walled nature preserve). so what you're saying is it's realist
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Mar 1, 2024 18:36
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what is the actual difference between OG zeonism and contolism? as i understood it contolism is just a continuation of the original zeon's ideology. i guess it doesn't have the nonapplicable political systems stuff concerning equal representation in the government? also aren't most non-moustache twirling characters contolists, and they just disagree on if the move into space should be a gradual and peaceful process or an immediate and violent one? does amuro not hold that belief?
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Mar 1, 2024 20:45
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IMO Zeonism would be specifically Contolism concerned with the autonomy and freedom of colonies, it's more of a political ideology, whereas Contolism is the broader philosophy of "people should leave earth to become newtypes" And I don't really think Amuro has much ideology. He mostly just seems concerned with stopping violence he see's in front of him, and doesn't seem to care much about politics outside that. I should rewatch his argument with Char in CCA, but I remember it mostly being him arguing Char's plan wouldn't work more than having a true vision of his own
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Mar 1, 2024 23:55
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Lemon-Lime posted:The weird aristocracy thing is just Zabism, I'm pretty sure. The Side 3 Republic/Republic of Munzo/first Republic of Zeon just gets represented as a regular parliamentary democracy most of the time. Even Zabism was a constitutional monarchy. The bicameral parliament was (on paper) completely capable of blocking the actions of the Zabis. It just wasn't able to because those paper protections were weaker in practice, and because Gihren was very good at manipulating people to do what he wanted, and bringing in brute force when they still didn't fold. Even when the Prime Minister was supporting Degwin himself in peace plans, he was cautious in who he told because of what Gihren might do in response. (The Arc Performance manga do a lot to flesh out the UC's political scene.)
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Mar 2, 2024 00:00
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chrome line posted:IMO Zeonism would be specifically Contolism concerned with the autonomy and freedom of colonies, it's more of a political ideology, whereas Contolism is the broader philosophy of "people should leave earth to become newtypes" This is the crux of UC entries. Ideologies and the hopes for the future are typically flattened into more static fixtures that are used to address the immediate situation. Newtype becomes Ace Pilot. Contolism/Zeonism becomes less about preserving earth and the species and more about space colony independence from the ruling hegemony. It's hard to see a methodology as encouraging the advancement of humanity into space when in practice it involves throwing big rocks at millions of people. That divide between the immediate now and the indeterminate future is fascinating. I like it when characters respond to immediate issues in front of them, and i like it even more when they engage with that duality between now and future. It makes people like Hathaway compelling where he's torn between his immediate and violent actions to enact change and while understanding that Mafty's message is intended to speak towards a longterm goal centuries away that the current generation won't live to see. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Mar 2, 2024 |
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Mar 2, 2024 00:10
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https://twitter.com/armoredcoreSIX/status/1763735759943778470?t=wFqmGptGsNWpK0r2U2lMsQ&s=19
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Mar 2, 2024 15:37
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