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counterfeitsaint posted:Doesn't Rodrigues say the exact words "I'm not your friend" to Blackthorn right after they meet? Yeah, but in a sexy spanish accent.
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Mar 4, 2024 07:30
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Stegosnaurlax posted:Yeah, but in a sexy spanish accent. If an insanely sexy Spaniard tells you he is not your friend, he is in fact your friend. That's how it works.
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Mar 4, 2024 07:32
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Thanks for the explanations about the politics, everyone. So Ishido is more powerful than the three Christian regents but would be unable to defeat them if he faced them as a united front alone. He and the Christians are united in being threatened by Toranaga, because he's from a powerful family and commands a lot of respect. Ishido wants to impeach Toranaga but keep him alive long enough to maneuver against the Christian regents. Is the idea that Ishido wants to eliminate Toranaga as a formal rival but keep him around as a potential wildcard ally for when the others and the Portuguese inevitably turn on him?
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Mar 4, 2024 10:17
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I think it was two catholic regents? F Murray Abraham and the guy with leprosy
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Mar 4, 2024 10:34
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MeinPanzer posted:Thanks for the explanations about the politics, everyone. I honestly kinda gave up understanding the politics about weather or not Blackthorn should live.
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Mar 4, 2024 11:29
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Yabushige is giving me strong Ashur from Spartacus vibes.
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Mar 4, 2024 13:32
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MeinPanzer posted:Thanks for the explanations about the politics, everyone. No, it's not about keeping him around as an ally after the impeachment, because once the impeachment vote is in Torunaga is as good as dead. Someone kinda mentioned it last page, but let me do more of a step by step thing. Torunaga is the most powerful of the 5 in the council. He currently holds the legitimate heir, has significant troops and holdings, etc. So the plan is to 4 v 1 him. And, from Ishido's view, that is the main machination going on. But then, the catholic regents decide to tell him "plan is off until you kill blackthorne." Which reveals two things to Ishido. 1- There is something going on with the Portuguese, why would you pause your little conspiracy over this nobody? and 2- the 2 christian regents are coordinating politically, so its not the simple 4 v 1 he was thinking earlier. 4 lesser regents conspiring to get rid of the most powerful one is one thing if you expect that you are one of 4 similarly powerful lords who are not aligned. But now you have direct evidence that 2 of the 4 are acting as one. If only one of the regents demands blackthrone be killed before their conspiracy continues he probably thinks nothing of it. Both doing it makes it clear that the 2 regents are acting as one, and as soon as torunaga is gone you're next.
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Mar 4, 2024 15:38
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MeinPanzer posted:Thanks for the explanations about the politics, everyone. I don't think ishido is thinking about keeping toranaga alive for longer than it takes to figure out why the Catholic daimyos want Blackthorne dead so badly. Ishido is smart enough to know that both of them threatening to withhold their votes to impeach Toranaga (something they've all been working toward for some time it seems) means there's something bigger at play here. He wants to figure that out if he can, before having his allies quickly become his chief rivals after Toranaga is gone. Ishido is a dangerous enemy, Toranaga's only equal on the council. He thinks multiple moves ahead, which is why he wants to position himself as strongly as he can against the Catholic daimyos before the board shifts.
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Mar 4, 2024 15:40
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Wasn't Ishido low born as well? I seem to remember him being the like, common Man and Toranaga being old money.
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Mar 4, 2024 16:07
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Yeah. Ishido is from a low-born background, and Toranaga is descended from one of the most powerful clans in Japanese history. I think they call them the Minowara in the show/book IIRC, but that's a reference to the Minamoto clan of real life. The real life Minamoto were members of the imperial family who were excluded from the succession line and "demoted" to regular nobility, but obviously as blood relatives to the emperor they were still extremely powerful and influential. So that's the kind of family background Toranaga is from.
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Mar 4, 2024 16:13
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Yeah, Ishido is described as Toranaga's chief rival. So the TLDR is: Ishido thinks he's about to get rid of his chief rival. Then both his chief rival and his supposed allies are willing to put the whole thing off for blackthorne and he's going "wait a minute..."
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Mar 4, 2024 16:22
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It sounded like his lineage had an actual Shogun in it previously, which is great for him, but makes him a target. Apart from the man himself, it seems like everyone is fearful or subservient to him and his lineage because of that mark from the past. When I first heard them talk about his Minowara background, I thought maybe it was a term for something, like warrior, but I guess it's just an ancestral name.
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Mar 4, 2024 16:24
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I don't think ishido is "low born", I think he's just from a moderately prestigious samurai clan. Being lower in the social hierarchy than Toranaga definitely irks him, as he takes every opportunity he can to belittle the reputation (I think he has done this on three separate occasions already) of Toranaga's clan and his ancestry. He's samurai middle class and the show has done a fantastic job showing that some middle-class people have a special hatred that stems from simultaneously believing in their superiority compared to lower classes and their vicious jealousy and resentment towards those higher than them. The actor portraying ishido has done a great job depicting someone who is just completely miserable, always stewing in a blend of arrogance and envy. This is also set in a time when a literal peasant became the de facto ruler of Japan (the Taiko). That event has definitely lit a fire in people like ishido who no longer need to respect the hierarchy as a legitimate obstacle to their ambitions. If a peasant can rule, then surely he can.
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Mar 4, 2024 16:33
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ShowTime posted:It sounded like his lineage had an actual Shogun in it previously, which is great for him, but makes him a target. Apart from the man himself, it seems like everyone is fearful or subservient to him and his lineage because of that mark from the past. When I first heard them talk about his Minowara background, I thought maybe it was a term for something, like warrior, but I guess it's just an ancestral name. Assuming the Minowara are analogous to the Minamoto (and I think it's safe to assume they are) the Minowara didn't just have "a shogun" but rather "every shogun for the last 400 years". The last Minowara shogun would have been less than 30 years from the time when the story is taking place.
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Mar 4, 2024 16:34
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I don't think the show has addressed Ishido's social background yet, but the shogun fx page describes him as a former peasant who moved up through military success.
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Mar 4, 2024 16:35
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Being Lord of the Kantō is also of immense importance. If I remember correctly, it is the bread basket of Japan.
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Mar 4, 2024 16:37
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Collateral posted:Being Lord of the Kantō is also of immense importance. If I remember correctly, it is the bread basket of Japan. Also the home of one Ash Ketchum, world renowned pokemon trainer
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Mar 4, 2024 16:55
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joepinetree posted:I don't think the show has addressed Ishido's social background yet, but the shogun fx page describes him as a former peasant who moved up through military success. In the scene where Ishido tells Yabu about his rise under the Taiko, he [Ishido] states that every lord in the country sent their finest stones, and his was chosen as the corner piece. I took that to mean Ishido was from a samurai family - especially since the character in the novel is based on Ishida Mitsunari who was not a peasant. Maybe the show will clear it up in the coming episodes.
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Mar 4, 2024 17:17
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CatstropheWaitress posted:Also the home of one Ash Ketchum, world renowned pokemon trainer  I never thought of that.FLIPADELPHIA posted:In the scene where Ishido tells Yabu about his rise under the Taiko, he [Ishido] states that every lord in the country sent their finest stones, and his was chosen as the corner piece. I took that to mean Ishido was from a samurai family - especially since the character in the novel is based on Ishida Mitsunari who was not a peasant. Maybe the show will clear it up in the coming episodes. It's a minor background detail, they may not expand on it. Book chat, I don't think it's a spoiler, but.. I hope the show will explain the recent history of Mariko's family and why she became a Christian, and why she wishes to join them. I was surprised her husband was so slight, I though he was supposed to be built like bear. Collateral fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Mar 4, 2024 |
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Mar 4, 2024 17:23
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Collateral posted:I hope the show will explain the recent history of Mariko's family and why she became a Christian, and why she wishes to join them. It's pretty critical to the plot and understanding her character/motivations, so it should come up Jamwad Hilder fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Mar 4, 2024 |
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Mar 4, 2024 17:29
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Sorry for the  edit.
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Mar 4, 2024 17:30
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Jamwad Hilder posted:It's pretty critical to the plot and understanding her character/motivations, so it should come up they keep brushing against it so I'm assuming the alone for a rock of time chat will happen Soon
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Mar 4, 2024 17:51
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:This is also set in a time when a literal peasant became the de facto ruler of Japan (the Taiko). That event has definitely lit a fire in people like ishido who no longer need to respect the hierarchy as a legitimate obstacle to their ambitions. If a peasant can rule, then surely he can. And to quell that behavior, one of the former Taiko's first edicts was making it illegal for a peasant to become a Samurai. One thing that was cut from the show but might help people's understanding of Blackthorne's relationship with Rodriguez, is that Pilots were in a special class of their own at the time. It was a captains ship but the second they lost sight of land, the pilot was in charge and his word was law. At least on Merchant vessels, military was different. So there was a lot of mutual respect considering there were maybe 10-15 people that knew how to sail to Japan from Europe, and they were 2 of them. This part I'll spoil, even though it's a historic fact it might come up as an exposition dump. About the title of Shogun It's not just that Toranaga comes from the family that the last few were from, he's the only leader that has the ability to claim the title. There were three Imperial vassal families and you need to have direct lineage in one of them in order to claim the title.
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Mar 4, 2024 20:45
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A lot of promotional stuff is coming out now and the actor who plays Blackthorne said that the character is based off William Adams, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_(pilot) so if you want to learn more about that guy, that's him. One more day and we get episode 3.
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Mar 4, 2024 21:46
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Collateral posted:
And I wonder if they'll address his little baby micropenis
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Mar 4, 2024 21:47
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Sanguinia posted:Have not read the book, but I've been looking forward to this since the first trailer, and first episode was a triumph. Can't wait to get home and watch the second. This is a really insightful post! I like the way you think. Steve Yun posted:I wonder if Shogun also kicked off the ninja trend in kungfu movies in the 80’s Chuck Norris was pretty Blackthorne looking...
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Mar 5, 2024 01:56
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Revenge of the Bushido Blade was kind of the first western written and produced ninja film, but not really a ninja film. 1980 Chuck was in the first American action Ninja movie. The Octogon 1980 Japan had a slew of them in the early to mid 60's, then You Only Live Twice had them as henchmen
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Mar 5, 2024 02:10
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Episode 3 was as excellent as the first two, I love that the escape from Osaka managed to be both simultaneously urgent and patient, and the wrap-up with Blackthorne teaching Toranaga how to dive and having the swimming race with him was a fantastic way to come down from the drama. Also the bureaucracy getting weaponized was hilarious. "Oh sure go ahead and vote to impeach Toranaga... but you need 5 votes and there are only 4 of you now" 
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Mar 5, 2024 13:39
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Another fantastic episode. And that ending. I'd fight for Toranaga, no questions asked.
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Mar 5, 2024 13:46
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3rd ep ot already? Hulu said 2100 pst
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Mar 5, 2024 13:57
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Right, and midnight EST. Which was super early this morning (or at 9PM PST last night).
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Mar 5, 2024 14:30
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Does the show look better on Hulu? Watching it via Sling and it feels like I’m watching a badly upscaled DVD. Good show though, and glad I’m not the only one picking up on Kirkland brand Tom Hardy vibes. - Also I skimmed through the thread and may have missed it, but this series was a good appetizer and sets up the context of the show. https://www.netflix.com/us/title/80237990?s=i&trkid=258518124&vlang=en&clip=81418561
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Mar 5, 2024 17:51
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Show looks very good on Hulu.
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Mar 5, 2024 17:57
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ShowTime posted:Right, and midnight EST. Which was super early this morning (or at 9PM PST last night). oh whoops, I had checked around 8pmish and thought it meant today
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Mar 5, 2024 19:53
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I loved Episode 3. Toranaga and Blackthorne's diving and swimming were cool. There seems to be a lot of "bandits" in Japan 
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Mar 5, 2024 19:58
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Slightly confused by some of the background politics in EP3 Why did Toranaga need to sneak out of the city? The show has probably explained why he is compelled to be there but it fell out of my brain. The Portuguese are obviously claiming Blackthorn is a barbarian pirate, but do those books not explain that he is a privateer and basically conducting "legal" warfare? Would the Japanese not accept this distinction as meaningful? I'm also not sure why he momentarily attempted to continue claiming to be a simple sailor even after his goose was cooked and was already getting a job offer. He literally explained to Toranaga's face prior that his purpose in japan was to "vanquish" the Portuguese.
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Mar 5, 2024 23:08
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Scoss posted:Slightly confused by some of the background politics in EP3 Toranaga can't leave because he's on the cusp of being impeached, even with the power struggle. He's suppose to stay there and wait for them to issue judgment, which is suppose to come when Blackthorne is executed. He's doing legal warfare from his side, but not theirs. The Japanese don't even really know what the English are, just the Portuguese really. So to the Japanese, what the Portrugese say kind of sticks and to the Portuguese, Blackthorne is a pirate. Blackthorne kind of is a simple sailor, to him at least. He's a navigator/pilot with the intention of reaching Japan and opening trade routes. I doubt he had much to do with the attacks they launched against the Portugese, but he's not free from guilt for that. They all basically hate each other and the European politics are different than the Japanese politics. That part is kind of muddy. Blackthorne seems guilty of crimes, but not against the Japanese, but against the Portuguese. But when the Japanese discover the Portrugese are using them, those crimes can kind of be forgiven. That's what it seems like to me at least. I didn't read the books or know much about history, but I can't imagine that being far off from the truth.
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Mar 5, 2024 23:25
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I didn't get to the new ep yet, but It's a bit interesting that people seem about 50/50 between spelling it blackthorn and blackthorne, I guess probably depending on exposure to the novel or not (it's the latter)
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Mar 5, 2024 23:25
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Scoss posted:Slightly confused by some of the background politics in EP3 Toranaga was effectively being held as a hostage under threat of impending impeachment. I don't think pirating/privateering is a distinction Japan would accept, particularly as they have no contact with the Protestant rulers and no reason to respect their behaviour. I read Blackthorne differently there - I think he was genuinely trying to explain that he doesn't know how to train and drill troops or to teach battle tactics (which is not the same as blasting cannon from your ship, after all), but quickly realised that this would be a death sentence.
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Mar 5, 2024 23:30
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Finally some good shots of the vqrious armors. Impressive work by the costuming staff. Great episode. Also the show really makes me want to play Shogun 2 Total War again.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:35
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