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I had no idea Fire Emblem had a meta. I guess the Dark Fliers with that "double turns" move were good? I never play on the nightmare difficulties though.
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Mar 5, 2024 23:57
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Annath posted:I had no idea Fire Emblem had a meta. I guess the Dark Fliers with that "double turns" move were good? I never play on the nightmare difficulties though. There's a lot of discussion about what is/was optimal and for a long time it was overwhelmingly dominated by things like "never use pre-promotes" or "(x) character is the best character in the game (if you ignore the fact they join at level 1 3 missions from the end and grinding them up to max level is functionally pointless)" or so-on. It's shifted a bit thankfully but there was a good chunk of time where even the suggestion of using a "Jegan" character would be treated like saying you should set your cat on fire.
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Mar 5, 2024 23:59
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The Jeigan stuff was a bit hyperbolic, but the growth percentages are known, and there are definitely units that are just flat out worse than others of their type. And yeah the units you get at the end with great growths but no missions to use them on are a pain. Although in the games that allowed grinding I am happy to do that 
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Mar 6, 2024 00:02
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I dont care as long as we all agree people who believe meta is acronym for "Most Effective Tactic Available" are dolts
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Mar 6, 2024 00:10
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Every game in which people discuss if certain options are stronger or weaker than others is going to develop some kind of "meta", in the sense that there are options that are generally agreed on in power level by much of the community (as well as what strong and weak mean, which for non-competitive games is not always super clear.)
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Mar 6, 2024 00:12
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The funny thing about FE meta is that for the longest time they were following a bunch of poo poo that was just hilariously isolated from the actual gameplay and making the games always harder for themselves for using the 'best' units in theory while shunning poo poo like pre-promotes and mediocre units with access to uniquely powerful tools simply because they were taking XP from 'real' units. Turns out, if you actually just play the loving games it's pretty easy to see crippling yourself to try and only use 'good' units as to not waste anything instead of exploiting all the toys given to you just because of 'optimal play' is the real Maddening Difficulty playthrough.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:22
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Playing suboptimally is the intelligent choice because the game is more fun when it's harder.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:25
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ImpAtom posted:Weirdly I've found that doesn't really hold up. I've found a lot of the people who really get into minmaxing and optimizing don't really tie it to figuring out themselves and will look up guides/tutorial/etc on how to minmax most effectively. There's a pretty vocal group of people who mixnmax based off guides and such and then complain about the game being too easy because it's designed around people figuring things out themselves. Used to be like that but thankfully FFX remastered post game broke me and I've never looked back. I like to play around and optimize a bit but as the years've gone by I've realized that if I'm looking at a guide on how to play the game then it means the game already lost me. Friend recommended I play Persona 5 like that and I gave it a shot and at some point I realized I just wasn't having fun. Prefer to be blissful and ignorant as I go through games these days (at least for a first playthrough). Part of me resents having learned the ins and outs of IVs and EVs back in the day since the only "competitive" Pokemon I like is rental-only bouts of Stadium 1 and 2 with irl friends so all I got out of it is that I can't look at the little monsters the same lol (it's better now that there's the option to just make them perfect in the end game with all the items for minmaxxing the Pokemon tho) Strangely enough I do like minmaxxing in the Disgaea series, but I guess the difference is that that game is pretty open about what it's all about and most of the process are things like item world which are fun in and of themselves, though. Barudak posted:I dont care as long as we all agree people who believe meta is acronym for "Most Effective Tactic Available" are dolts Never heard that one before but I agree
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Mar 6, 2024 00:29
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I do think the argument line of “a weaker choice can beat a stronger one if the other user is a dummy” is weak weak though. Because a common strong “meta” pick criteria is that even dummies can’t mess it up. Rather argue that lower picked ones have a really strong niche that if you exploit that str. they can go above their tier.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:31
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GateOfD posted:Because a common strong “meta” pick criteria is that even dummies can’t mess it up.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:35
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Annath posted:The Jeigan stuff was a bit hyperbolic, but the growth percentages are known, and there are definitely units that are just flat out worse than others of their type. like if lowen is only as good as level 1 marcus 2/3rds of the way through the game, does it really matter that marcus's growths are worse
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Mar 6, 2024 00:36
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Endorph posted:this also isnt true. plenty of extremely strong things in games are also hard to play One of the criteria, didn’t say always. Dummyproof is part of various character reviews depending on the game
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Mar 6, 2024 00:39
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GateOfD posted:I do think the argument line of “a weaker choice can beat a stronger one if the other user is a dummy” is weak weak though. Because a common strong “meta” pick criteria is that even dummies can’t mess it up. How so? A dummy can absolutely gently caress up playing meta picks or strategies if they plain don't understand the game. The second bit is absolutely true though, it's why tier lists and meta are malleable and even "solved" games still see a shakeup or two given enopugh time and effort from players who like to push and experiment with lower tier characters. Mainly speaking about fighting games here, for what it's worth.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:40
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Endorph posted:you can absolutely do what you want in etrian odyssey Paging user theshim (?), a local poster who has been slowly doing single class challenges in basically every EO game lol
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Mar 6, 2024 00:42
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I'm just irritated that I basically had to stop playing Overwatch not long after it launched because the "meta" dictated I learn "counters" and "comps", even in unranked. All I wanted to do was play Zenyatta or D.va and have fun. 
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Mar 6, 2024 00:47
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they want shady posted:How so? A dummy can absolutely gently caress up playing meta picks or strategies if they plain don't understand the game. Because going this C-rank can beat this A-rank “if one side is an idiot” doesn’t say anything about the character, it’s the player. What if the dummy is playing the C-rank unit and also doesn’t understand the game.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:49
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The worst meta is when a person kicking your rear end with a technique and wont tell you what it is so you have to manually go look it up later and like buddy, we could be having better matches of this RTS right now if you just even vaguely hint how in the dogshit you are optimizing the early game to brutalize me with tier 2 units while Im still building my first farms.
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Mar 6, 2024 00:51
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The meta of where you can beat your college roommates, but lose to first matches in pools at a minor regular tournament
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Mar 6, 2024 00:55
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a strategy being skill testing is not the same thing as it being powerful. like ontologically. you are cherrypicking incredibly specific scenarios and applying it to define things that are just not related to that.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:09
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there is in fact really easy examples of how something being meta can make it harder. if something is meta because its more versatile than other choices, its also pretty factually harder. this is because being versatile means having more and deeper choices, and that means its easier to choose wrong. so choosing right becomes harder. like come on man
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Mar 6, 2024 01:11
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I dislike the term 'meta' for single player games, and propose we go back to discussing character tiers like civilized people.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:13
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GateOfD posted:Because going this C-rank can beat this A-rank “if one side is an idiot” doesn’t say anything about the character, it’s the player. I can agree that there's ways to measure character strength independent of player strength (ie. how good are their buttons, specials, etc.). They'll never be completely separate though since characters, being part of a game, will always be a means of player expression first and foremost. So player experience and sensibilities can absolutely trump tier-lists even with a bad matchup, since those mostly try to look at character strengths in a vacuum. GateOfD posted:The meta of where you can beat your college roommates, but lose to first matches in pools at a minor regular tournament Looking at this post I think we agree? Meta's ultimately a product of its environment and level of play, so of course it's gonna vary if you're playing with your friends who don't know how to deal with hadouken spam or if you're going to locals or an actual competitive tournament. It's why there's characters who can be easy to play and have good enough buttons that they feel oppresive to new players but might end up being mid or even low tier in the highest levels of play (again, mostly talking about fighting games since that's pretty much the only competitive genere I play and follow).
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Mar 6, 2024 01:14
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Hellioning posted:I dislike the term 'meta' for single player games, and propose we go back to discussing character tiers like civilized people. S Tier: The ones I like F Tier: The ones you like
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Mar 6, 2024 01:15
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Annath posted:I'm just irritated that I basically had to stop playing Overwatch not long after it launched because the "meta" dictated I learn "counters" and "comps", even in unranked.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:20
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Also we started off on single player games meta, but branched into actual competitive meta games, and everyone is envisioning a different meta-scape on their points. The meta of meta
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Mar 6, 2024 01:21
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The idea of a meta is what destroyed ffxiv. I mean it's obviously still going strong, but all the jobs are watered down to the point that other than your role, it's basically all flavor. They chased WoW's design philosophy really hard when they relaunched, but then discovered WoW's pitfalls, such as people not wanting to bring certain classes to difficult raids because they were marginally less effective according to a spreadsheet. But probably 60% of players don't engage with that content, it's just a sliver of the extremely competitive people aiming for world firsts and stuff that they're catering too. MMOs are weird.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:24
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GateOfD posted:Also we started off on single player games meta, but branched into actual competitive meta games, and everyone is envisioning a different meta-scape on their points. Most Effective To Argue
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Mar 6, 2024 01:24
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worm girl posted:The idea of a meta is what destroyed ffxiv. I mean it's obviously still going strong, but all the jobs are watered down to the point that other than your role, it's basically all flavor. They chased WoW's design philosophy really hard when they relaunched, but then discovered WoW's pitfalls, such as people not wanting to bring certain classes to difficult raids because they were marginally less effective according to a spreadsheet. this is really hyperbolic lol
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Mar 6, 2024 01:26
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Endorph posted:you can absolutely just slam pick zenyatta or dva all day in unranked Last time I played, which granted was years ago, people didn't seem to care it was unranked - picking the "wrong" character was a great way to get harassed/abused in voice/chat.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:27
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FfXIV being that way is mostly because v1.0 had the exact opposite philosophy and was almost unplayable, I thought.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:28
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One of the worst single player meta is "dont use balthier as a gun user cause he has the worst DPS". However! One of the funniest single player metas is "baltheir is mathematically the worst at being a gun user because thedevs gave him extra animation love for using guns"
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Mar 6, 2024 01:28
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One of my favorite things is that most people online talking about FFVI talked about how trash Gau was until somebody made a hugeass FAQ about him like 15 years after release.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:29
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worm girl posted:The idea of a meta is what destroyed ffxiv. I mean it's obviously still going strong, but all the jobs are watered down to the point that other than your role, it's basically all flavor. They chased WoW's design philosophy really hard when they relaunched, but then discovered WoW's pitfalls, such as people not wanting to bring certain classes to difficult raids because they were marginally less effective according to a spreadsheet. It's not because they're marginally less effective, it's because Ninja was basically mandatory, and Astrologian's buffs were horribly uneven, and some classes relied on other classes for debuffs to do good parses. Like the classes are more homogenized but it is not because of sheer dps numbers.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:34
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just mess around with gau for a few seconds and it's not hard to see how he really can be an actual beast. just one of those things of, you've gotta really learn how all this bullshit works for him to get there lol
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Mar 6, 2024 01:34
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The Colonel posted:just mess around with gau for a few seconds and it's not hard to see how he really can be an actual beast. just one of those things of, you've gotta really learn how all this bullshit works for him to get there lol I mean yes he can be an absolute beast. That is the point of Rage. It turns him into the beast he hung out with.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:35
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i'll never be able to speak on ff14 balancing because literally all i do in ff14 is do the quests to see the fun writing and then walk around the cool environments
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Mar 6, 2024 01:35
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Hellioning posted:I mean yes he can be an absolute beast. That is the point of Rage. It turns him into the beast he hung out with. thats why i emphasized "he really can"! i was acknowledging that him becoming a beast is fact
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Mar 6, 2024 01:35
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Ace Transmuter posted:One of my favorite things is that most people online talking about FFVI talked about how trash Gau was until somebody made a hugeass FAQ about him like 15 years after release. Those people are the backbone of the internet.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:36
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worm girl posted:The idea of a meta is what destroyed ffxiv. I mean it's obviously still going strong, but all the jobs are watered down to the point that other than your role, it's basically all flavor. They chased WoW's design philosophy really hard when they relaunched, but then discovered WoW's pitfalls, such as people not wanting to bring certain classes to difficult raids because they were marginally less effective according to a spreadsheet. I think making every class being viable is a good thing and a lot of classes that got reworked were made less clunky to play
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Mar 6, 2024 01:36
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FFXIV has absolutely simplified and homogenized job design a lot over the last several expansions, but I don't think that is really because of raiders complaining (though that has motivated a couple of the changes) and more trying to make all jobs appeal to all players.
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Mar 6, 2024 01:37
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