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Caidin posted:Maybe Sephiroth just cast Meteor instead of Meteoraga? Hell maybe the Black Materia also let's you cast Delete Ghost and it just didn't come up before. Maybe the Gi are entirely legit and the Cetra really are anti immigrant jerks. I get the impression you're supposed to think the Cetra and the planet were at least partially being jerks due to the whole Jenova PTSD thing, which Red XIII has stated it is his goal to find a way to help the Gi Tribe without blowing up the planet. (Which I expect to be part of his questline in part 3.)
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Mar 11, 2024 20:59
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The Cetra were a little justified at being spicy towards new faces when the last one was the goddamn thing from another world.
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Mar 11, 2024 21:03
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The Gi stuff is certainly more complex than in the original. Did the game give any indication that the Cetra or Planet will be more morally ambiguous in this as well?
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Mar 11, 2024 21:27
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NikkolasKing posted:The Gi stuff is certainly more complex than in the original. The Planet isn't really morally ambiguous. It's a living organism and the Lifestream and creation of life is part of its lifecycle, but that doesn't mean it isn't willing to lay loving waste if it needs to. The original game had Weapons and the whole "There's a pretty reasonable chance if we unleash Holy it will loving end humanity because we're a threat too" part. The planet being able, and willing, to gently caress up things it considers threats was always there.
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Mar 11, 2024 21:32
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ImpAtom posted:The Planet isn't really morally ambiguous. It's a living organism and the Lifestream and creation of life is part of its lifecycle, but that doesn't mean it isn't willing to lay loving waste if it needs to. The original game had Weapons and the whole "There's a pretty reasonable chance if we unleash Holy it will loving end humanity because we're a threat too" part. The planet being able, and willing, to gently caress up things it considers threats was always there. Yes but that's what I'm saying. The Planet is the supreme judge and whatever it decides is right. Our heroes don't wanna die but they aren't saying "this is unfair and the Planet has no right to do this." It has every right to do it because there's no moral ambiguity. If humans got erased, it's because they deserved it. The stuff on the Gi makes the Planet sound much less perfectly just.
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Mar 11, 2024 21:45
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NikkolasKing posted:Yes but that's what I'm saying. The Planet is the supreme judge and whatever it decides is right. Our heroes don't wanna die but they aren't saying "this is unfair and the Planet has no right to do this." It has every right to do it because there's no moral ambiguity. If humans got erased, it's because they deserved it. I'm not really sure how. Like it's the same basic concept. "The Planet finds a threat and it has no real mercy for threats."
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Mar 11, 2024 21:55
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I'm not sure there's any conscious thought to it for the Planet. You came from the Lifestream, you return to it. You didn't, you can't. There might not be anything anyone can do about it, even whatever consciousness the Planet might possess. It's just How It Works, or at least that's the impression I got. The Lifespring lore you find also provides a different perspective on the Gi vs. Cetra conflict, in that it sounds like maybe the Cetra were actually kind to the Gi and the Gi feel abandoned by them.
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Mar 11, 2024 23:00
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Just finished the game... Why the gently caress is materials auto-collection something you unlock after beating the game
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Mar 11, 2024 23:23
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Harrow posted:I'm not sure there's any conscious thought to it for the Planet. You came from the Lifestream, you return to it. You didn't, you can't. There might not be anything anyone can do about it, even whatever consciousness the Planet might possess. It's just How It Works, or at least that's the impression I got. Yeah wasn't it like, "The cetra then just abandoned us (because they were all dead)" bergenhagen's a real jerk for not using a few gold needles on the rock dog-cat gotta say, especially since he can still cry.
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Mar 12, 2024 00:11
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ImpAtom posted:
Wow that’s cool, what was the loving point of adding the whisper poo poo then?????
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Mar 12, 2024 00:13
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Pollyanna posted:Wow that’s cool, what was the loving point of adding the whisper poo poo then????? Well you see fate is changed and that means that the same poo poo happens but cloud gets to team up with zach I guess? lol two games of whisper poo poo to wind up at the same spot
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Mar 12, 2024 00:15
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Pollyanna posted:Wow that’s cool, what was the loving point of adding the whisper poo poo then????? They changed their minds probably
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Mar 12, 2024 00:21
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Pollyanna posted:Wow that’s cool, what was the loving point of adding the whisper poo poo then????? The point was to piss people off by putting them everywhere while also generating shitloads of free press by making people speculate if they'll actually change anything important. real answer: To make Sephiroth an even bigger threat than he already was in the OG 7, is my actual guess. Ardryn fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Mar 12, 2024 |
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Mar 12, 2024 00:25
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Real real answer: there’s still a third game!
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Mar 12, 2024 00:56
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Man hearing Aerith’s theme while fighting the Jenova creature at the end still packs an emotional wallop. Though a little less so since I was confused just what the hell happened, though became clear to me eventually
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Mar 12, 2024 01:38
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theblackw0lf posted:Man hearing Aerith’s theme while fighting the Jenova creature at the end still packs an emotional wallop. Though a little less so since I was confused just what the hell happened, though became clear to me eventually Honestly, I didn’t like it. Her moment got overshadowed by everything that happens afterwards, including Bizarro Sephiroth and the whole fakeout with her reappearing to help fight Sephiroth. The original gave you time to quietly contemplate what happened while fighting Jenova LIFE and then time afterwards to process. The remake immediately launches you into a final boss rush plus multiverse/time batshittery and Aerith Dies takes a backseat to all that poo poo. If they were gonna bring up timeline splits and defying fate and poo poo, they shoulda delivered on it and done something interesting instead of “eh gently caress it she dies here I guess, or maybe not lol??”. Kind of a fuckin waste.
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Mar 12, 2024 01:47
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A part of me feels that the northern crater would've been a better spot to end the game than the Forgotten Capital with how they're setting up Cloud's mental degradation and his straight up denial of Aeriths death and its where the extra elements they established regarding Tifa's mistrust of Cloud would actually pay off. But that's all wishcasting. For me the issue was that Rebirth feels completely out of breath as a game after the Temple of the Ancients so they have to pay off all of these multiversal elements in just a multi-stage boss level in addition to Aeriths death. It's overloaded.
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Mar 12, 2024 02:26
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Fucker posted:endgame spoilers 
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Mar 12, 2024 02:32
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My take on Rebirth's continuation of the Whispers/timeline plot: I still don't like that this element is in the games. However, this time I will admit I am having fun with it. Like the Zack scenes are wild, a Zack/Cloud team-up against Sephiroth is just hype as gently caress, and it is fun to speculate about what's going on. I wish I could see a version of these games without it, but I'm at least having more fun with it than I did in Remake. That said I also really don't like the idea that they're doing a Schrödinger's Aerith, like that RPGSite theory states (and a lot of theories I've seen around). In my read, everything about that scene says "Cloud's mind is broken and being hosed with by Jenova--Aerith was killed but he can't perceive it," especially with how sad you can see Aerith is, and her melancholy "goodbye" at the end. But all the rainbow light does seem to suggest there's multiverse stuff going on there and that there's an alternate timeline where Aerith's alive, which... I dunno, to me that's dumb as gently caress. If that's the case I'm gonna be disappointed, because "there's a wish fulfillment dimension out there where everything's fine  " just feels a little... pandering.Meanwhile if this is all going deeper on Cloud's mega-mako-Jenova-psychosis instead and Sephiroth's going to do something like try to convince Cloud he killed Aerith or something, that's much more interesting to me.
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Mar 12, 2024 03:42
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Yeah the ending shits its pants mostly because it tries to shove way too much into way too short a timespan, and because it’s confusing and inconsistent as gently caress. I’d rather they not play stupid games with the plot, but we’re way past that point now I guess.
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Mar 12, 2024 03:47
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Also I’ll just say it, it’s a huge loving shame that we lose such a great character right when she’s in peak form. Yes, I know that’s the whole point, but still. Maybe I’m biased.
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Mar 12, 2024 03:51
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Pollyanna posted:Also I’ll just say it, it’s a huge loving shame that we lose such a great character right when she’s in peak form. Yes, I know that’s the whole point, but still. Maybe I’m biased. Naw I agree it sucks especially after ending the last game by saying they've defied fate. What they defied I have no loving clue
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Mar 12, 2024 04:11
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poo poo or get off the pot, I say. Either we’re doing whispers and defying fate or we’re loving not, pick one and stick with it. As it is now, in five to ten years people are going to be replaying and watching video essays about this series and everyone’s gonna have to say “yeah just ignore the whispers they’re weird and didn’t go anywhere” and that’s pretty sad.
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Mar 12, 2024 04:16
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I mean there is literally a third game to go. The Whispers are not done.
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Mar 12, 2024 04:18
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Yeah, that’s my point. It’ll be up to part 3 to pay off the whole defying fate/future not written in stone thing, because if not then keeping everything effectively the same instead just makes you wonder why this was all added to the mix in the first place.
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Mar 12, 2024 04:33
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As a reminder: There is still one element that has yet to be acknowledge that is terrifying in its existence The Remake Project was intended to come out as part of the compilation. The Compilation's conclusion was Genesis showing up in the DoC credits to pick up White the White's body and go "We have work to do." Now that doesn't mean it's going to come up just... interesting.
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Mar 12, 2024 12:16
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I hope they can pay off the Whispers stuff in part 3. I think it's possible that this isn't actually intended to be a sequel and is actually a reimagining, but it's hard to say without knowing where all the Whisper stuff is leading, and it does throw into question the way it's presented in the finale of Remake. The way it's handled in Rebirth somewhat feels like it's just supposed to represent the struggle between the Planet and Sephiroth/Jenova, with the black Whispers representing the part of the Lifestream that has been corrupted by Jenova, though of course that doesn't explain the timeline stuff. I just hope it all pays off in a way that's at least somewhat interesting.
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Mar 12, 2024 14:26
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Yeah, I think it’d be totally cool if this was just them fleshing out the Sephiroth vs the Planet conflict, and really hammering home that the Planet is a living thing that can make choices. They’ve done a lot of that in this project, taking concepts that were more implied and making them front-and-center.
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Mar 12, 2024 14:36
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Sephiroth is going to end up being the hero(who is the most perfect boy and did nothing wrong  ) because the planet / lifestream are real dicks.
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Mar 12, 2024 15:32
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Harrow posted:I just hope it all pays off in a way that's at least somewhat interesting. You don't find a 3v1 Zack/Aerith/Cloud vs. Serphiroth happening ON the meteor interesting?!? I just can't wait to see it. Their environment / atmosphere design has really landed hard with me. The City of the Ancients was my favorite location in the OG and I loved what they did with it. And like maybe this is a weird perspective but the Aerith stuff doesn't bother me at all because they also gave me all the pieces to imagine what a 1:1 remake of the OG would look like.
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Mar 12, 2024 15:33
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The Dave posted:You don't find a 3v1 Zack/Aerith/Cloud vs. Serphiroth happening ON the meteor interesting?!? No. That whole last fight dragged on way too long. Half of it could've been cutscenes instead of just a freebie pushover "fight".
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Mar 12, 2024 15:35
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Slept on the ending and ehhhhhh yeah no I still don’t like it. For one thing, I don’t think it was a good idea to end right at Aerith’s death. That really wasn’t the time or place for a big ol’ pompous final boss rush. I would have preferred time to decompress and process afterward like you get in the original, then advanced or reorganized the plot to a more appropriate time to fight Jenova (and Bizarro/Rebirth Sephiroth I guess?). I suppose the problem would be going into the final sequence without Aerith, but that’s already the case anyway (which sucks if she’s one of your favorites to play as btw). Also not too hot on blowing the load on Bizarro Sephiroth early, especially not without any Birth of a God remix!!!!  Another is that the execution and presentation of her death is confusing to the point of annoyance. It’s really unclear what the hell happened, and not in a good way. The constant glitch cuts and the back and forth fakeouts/unreliable 3rd person narrator thing was distracting and took attention away from the moment itself, and I really didn’t wanna spend that time going “wait, what, did she die, did she not die, did Cloud deflect the blow, which if these is the real world, are they just blowing smoke up my rear end???”. You can argue that that’s the point, that the audience is supposed to be confused because Jenova brain etc. etc., but that only works if it’s enjoyable. IMO it’s not, it’s just annoying. The world hopping(???) was just an excuse to fight Bizarro Sephiroth and have Zack and Aerith in your party. It doesn’t meaningfully affect the story (which I’ll get into) and there’s little reason to include it other than to hint at different story possibilities. I don’t know why we have four or five different universes, each with their own goddamn Stamp, if none even matter in the end. And Sephiroth’s plot being “harvest multiversal suffering for haha-I’m-evil purposes” is an unnecessary twist for the sake of justifying the defying fate/future unwritten elements from Remake, especially when Rebirth walks those back. Finally, the whispers. I thought the entire point of the whispers was that defeating them freed the remake trilogy from having to follow the original plot arc. Clearly, Square-Enix changed their mind and the overall arc did not change, this isn’t an AU or a rebuild or a meta-sequel or anything. So then…why are they still here? They’re not what they originally represented, they’re Sephiroth’s spirit army or something now. They’re just there to get in the party’s way whenever Sephiroth feels like it, and have no other narrative use. It sucks cause I actually came around on the Remake whispers once I started considering them a metatextual element representing the devs’ desire to change things up as they see fit, and that was genuinely kinda cool. Now they’re just generic filler and now I look like an idiot. The problem really boils down to Square-Enix getting cold feet. They set themselves up to get weird and creative and new with the ending to Remake, and then just…chickened out. They set up some good mystery and questions with the clear materia, Tifa confronting Cloud early, and the Zack sequences, and then either didn’t deliver or came up with something messy and confusing. I wish they had gone with one of two options: 1. Introduce whispers and what they represent, then go ham on the multiverse and/or defy fate, future isn’t written in stone thing and have fun with it and make it actually matter; or 2. Not introduce those elements at all!!! To be clear: 90% of the game is great, and the next 5% is decent but is kind of tedious. But that last 5%, holy poo poo man. What a wasted opportunity. What a mess.
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Mar 12, 2024 15:39
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Pollyanna posted:Slept on the ending and ehhhhhh yeah no I still don’t like it. You literally fight Jenova directly after Aerith's death in the original though (Also Bizarro Sephiroth's name in Japan is Rebirth Sephiroth so it was kind of inevitable. It's actually a hilarious translation chain where the name could be read as Rebirth or Reverse, so they went with Reverse, and what is the Reverse of Superman? Bizarro!) I'm not exactly sure why you're going "And nothing changed" when like... yes, things changed. Cloud still has the 'empty' White Materia for example, Zack is still around somewhere, the Whispers are still around, they are going to get used in some fashion in the third game. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Mar 12, 2024 |
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Mar 12, 2024 15:41
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ImpAtom posted:You literally fight Jenova directly after Aerith's death in the original though You fight Jenova and then watch Gast's devastating home movies, then you steal a snowboard from a little kid with a broken leg and do a rad snowboarding minigame. The tonal whiplash had me like a pez dispenser.
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Mar 12, 2024 15:48
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It should have ended on snowboarding, how can I handle the death of a loved one without snowboarding
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Mar 12, 2024 15:56
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ImpAtom posted:You literally fight Jenova directly after Aerith's death in the original though You don't get a kaleidoscope of many different scenes in different universes and then a big falling void space fight against Jenova though. I'm not as down on it as Pollyanna but I think they did gently caress it a bit.
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Mar 12, 2024 15:58
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Also, what is even happening at the very end? Force ghost Aerith or multiversal bleeding? Clearly Aerith did in fact die, because everyone’s crying. But she is non-physically still there and Cloud isn’t just going crazy, because Red XIII reacts to her presence even if he can’t see her. Is this a metaphorical thing just for closure? Is it real and one of the changes they reserved the right to make? Do I even understand what I saw???  ImpAtom posted:You literally fight Jenova directly after Aerith's death in the original though Yeah but it’s not a whole-rear end final boss or boss rush. Jenova LIFE in the original was just enough to give you something to beat up and get upset over, and then her funeral comes immediately after. Here they jangle a bunch keys while you’re still figuring out what’s going on. It’s also weird and tonally confusing to have Aerith show up to help in that last Sephiroth boss fight, but maybe that’s just me, I don’t know. quote:
Nothing meaningfully changed. Nothing happened to redirect the arc of the plot, nothing truly diverged from the expected flow. If it was supposed to, then I don’t really see how the presence of the clear materia would change what the party can accomplish in disc 2 and 3. Same for Zack hopping through the multiverse, cause he’s just off doing his own thing. Maybe this will make more sense in part 3, but man it’s gonna be 2028 by then.
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Mar 12, 2024 15:58
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Agree they're still hedging and can't commit to breaking continuity fully or not, it's very frustrating and clear there's no plan. They've literally said in interviews they're still working off fan reactions. We're also in KH dream logic where (never mind an explanation) the Whispers could be entirely absent from the next game and no one would comment on it in-universe. I do think it's very funny so much of this lore hinges on a cartoon dog mascot on a cereal box though.
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Mar 12, 2024 16:01
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VagueRant posted:They've literally said in interviews they're still working off fan reactions. Aw goddammit, no wonder this is a mess. This is never a good idea. It muddles the hell out of your output and prevents you from making a solid core to your work and that’s the part that actually impresses people. Imagine if From Software or Nintendo did that poo poo. Pick something and stick with it, don’t try to please everyone and definitely don’t waffle back and forth.
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Mar 12, 2024 16:05
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Pollyanna posted:Also, what is even happening at the very end? Force ghost Aerith or multiversal bleeding? Clearly Aerith did in fact die, because everyone’s crying. But she is non-physically still there and Cloud isn’t just going crazy, because Red XIII reacts to her presence even if he can’t see her. Is this a metaphorical thing just for closure? Is it real and one of the changes they reserved the right to make? Do I even understand what I saw??? I think honestly, just don't worry about it, focus on the 90% of the game you unequivocally enjoyed, leave the theorycrafting and all that and just play the next one when it comes out. If it's like this it'll likely be very good for the majority of it and if they somehow manage to finangle the whispers into a satisfying conclusion then treat that as a bonus. I'm kinda with you in that I think, if they were gonna do the second game like this they probably shouldn't have opened the pandoras box in Remake but they did and yeah I reckon they might have gotten slightly cold feet and backed off making it more different than they did (though I still think the purists will hate the differences in this enough to still be pissed). The tagline at the end of the last one was "the unknown journey will continue" but with this one it kinda feels like it was actually a relatively known journey and I can't help but feel slightly disappointed by that. As to the actual quoted post, don't forget that Aerith kinda reacted in a similar way to Red XIII did there when the other Zach and Cloud walked nearby in their timeline while our gang was leaving Midgar at the end of Remake, like she knew there was something/someone there. I have no idea what to really make of that but people being aware of the other timelines on some level, even if it's just "someone stepped on my grave" weird feelings, is a thing they've shown, even beyond the lifestream thing. One thing that I think really shows they didn't have a grand plan for the whispers or if they did, they abandoned it largely, just imo, is that in Remake, Red XIII identifies them as "arbiters of fate" without having found that out from Aerith right? So presumably a thing he's heard of in legends or whatever, then in this game he and Aerith both remember them despite her saying the memories have been drained from her, they assume because of what happened at the end of Remake. Then the whispers that show up in Rebirth, well Bugenhagen doesn't recognise them or know anything about them and we never see any other indication that anyone else knows anything about them, no legends on walls or anything like that. So no indication of how Red knew about them prior to meeting Aerith and having a proper conversation with her. I suppose they could always just say he was just saying what he reckoned with no backing, when he's doing his fake voice, whatever he says kinda sounds pretty correct tbh. thebardyspoon fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Mar 12, 2024 |
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Mar 12, 2024 16:08
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