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I'm glad Aerith still died because they made me care about her, so it actually was a bummer.
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Mar 12, 2024 16:13
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I'm glad Aerith still died because they made me care about her, so it actually was a bummer.  I remember people being so sad about that in the late 90s, but I didn't play the game then so I didn't get that experience. Here I did, though. It was indeed very sad.
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Mar 12, 2024 16:14
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I’m fine with Aerith still dying. Obviously I prefer she lives because she’s my favorite in many ways, and I would have been very happy if that happened. But her death is such a pivotal and famous moment that I am not in the least bit surprised they decided that her death is what’s best for the story. So, I would have also preferred if they played her death completely straight with no timelines, parallel universes, unreliable narrators, or other meta fuckery. It sucks, and I’m certainly not in the mood to ruminate on death right now, but I understand why it has to happen. What I’d rather they not do is what they ended up doing, which is try to have their cake and eat it too. Now we have smushed floor cake. 
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Mar 12, 2024 16:57
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The Jenova Lifeclinger fight needed to have Aerith's Theme going for the whole Jenova boss. I burnt through the first phase too fast and I really liked in the original having that playing during that whole fight. I feel like there needed to be a longer epilogue to let it sink in but they wanted to show Cloud's mental state being gone/multiversed so they cut all that stuff for the next game when they have Cloud face reality which isn't great when that's like 4+ years away. It's a mess, I enjoyed it, I expected it to be a mess in the end but it still didn't feel great.
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Mar 12, 2024 17:11
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I think my take is that the writers are a bit too in love with their own mystery box to the point that it detracts from the rest of the story. On paper I'm fine with everything that's going on, assuming my interpretation of events is correct, but it does feel weird that we're 2/3s of the way through the trilogy and still don't really have any idea what's going on. Like I feel like I don't know any more about the overall metaplot than I did at the end of Remake. We still don't know what Sephiroth wants, or how he plans to do it, or how he has the power to do what he's doing. Rebirth adds even more question marks to that. What was this "confluence of worlds" at the end? Did Sephiroth cause it, or was it happening already and he just took advantage of it? (If he did cause it, how?) Either way, what was he trying to accomplish with the confluence? Did he accomplish it? Because I honestly can't tell, he's just got that smug look all the time, no idea if we foiled something at the end of Rebirth or not. Does he plan to do it again? Why? What are the consequences of linking worlds? (And if my interpretation of events isn't correct--if there's some kind of Schrödinger's Aerith going on, where she's still alive in some universe somewhere--then I think that's pretty dumb and won't satisfy anyone.) On the whole I think Rebirth is an incredible game and I do think I had more fun with the multiverse mystery box stuff this time, but it still just feels like it hasn't actually gone anywhere, and at the 2/3s point, I'd hope for something more than just continued teases. I guess we know for sure it's a multiple worlds situation?
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Mar 12, 2024 17:14
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Pollyanna posted:What I’d rather they not do is what they ended up doing, which is try to have their cake and eat it too. Now we have smushed floor cake. That's where I'm at too. Saying fate is changed and then not changing the only part of fate that anyone honestly cares about feels like a bait and switch.
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Mar 12, 2024 17:21
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We slaughtered the gods of fate! The journey before us is boundless freedom, an unknown journey defying destiny! (The military ship is now a cruise ship)
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Mar 12, 2024 17:28
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I don't think Aerith is alive just based on all scenes in Clouds head being her saying goodbye or literally teleporting around the field. I do think she's there but like more in a ghostly sense. I say this though when it's absolutely possible they'll pull a Tale of Two Clouds split between multiverses. The writers are trying to create a mystery box around something that both everybody expects and that they don't want to drastically change, so like when Remake ended we had the mystery of will Aerith die? Or what will change and the answer in Rebirth is: nothing with change greatly but we added thousands of wrinkles to it for you to think about. I think if the feedback is strong enough though that we were "tricked" into thinking fate changed then they might pull more aggressive multiverse shenanigans
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Mar 12, 2024 17:29
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VagueRant posted:We slaughtered the gods of fate! The journey before us is boundless freedom, an unknown journey defying destiny! Cloud has a black orb this time and will give it to Sephiroth a few days later, Sir and or Madam.  It's a shame because I really enjoyed the rest of the game and the endless glitchy what happened wasn't great.
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Mar 12, 2024 17:30
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To be fair, the creators have been pretty consistent in interviews in maintaining that the Rebirth trilogy will generally follow the story of the original, but with a new mystery added in. People seemed to assume they were outright lying every time I brought that up in the past but Rebirth does seem to be pretty much that.
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Mar 12, 2024 17:30
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Harrow posted:I guess we know for sure it's a multiple worlds situation? Is it, though??? Or is it a lifestream afterlife thing like the aurora borealis thing hints at? It’s not clear if there’s many different parallel universes, or one single universe and a lifestream with a bunch of virtual sub-realities. What even was that sky thing, anyway?
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Mar 12, 2024 17:30
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Pollyanna posted:Is it, though??? Or is it a lifestream afterlife thing like the aurora borealis thing hints at? It’s not clear if there’s many different parallel universes, or one single universe and a lifestream with a bunch of virtual sub-realities. I mean I would prefer if it was a Lifestream afterlife thing, but Sephiroth pretty directly states that "when the boundaries of fate are breached, new worlds are born" and talks about all the other worlds that exist and will inevitably end. I guess it could be both somehow? Like all the alternate worlds exist as ideas or possibilities within the Lifestream but aren't actually "real" or something?
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Mar 12, 2024 17:32
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Pollyanna posted:Is it, though??? Or is it a lifestream afterlife thing like the aurora borealis thing hints at? It’s not clear if there’s many different parallel universes, or one single universe and a lifestream with a bunch of virtual sub-realities. The sky thing is likely part of a bigger mystery and there's some genuine indication that Aerith could see it before she lost the White Materia. (Which is part of why they changed the ending line that everyone bitched about.)
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Mar 12, 2024 17:33
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D.Fuzzbot posted:I think if the feedback is strong enough though that we were "tricked" into thinking fate changed then they might pull more aggressive multiverse shenanigans But that’s going to be even more flailing which is going to make things even worse! Harrow posted:I mean I would prefer if it was a Lifestream afterlife thing, but Sephiroth pretty directly states that "when the boundaries of fate are breached, new worlds are born" and talks about all the other worlds that exist and will inevitably end. I thought he or someone else said that the planet itself births those worlds, which would imply the lifestream, right? ImpAtom posted:The sky thing is likely part of a bigger mystery and there's some genuine indication that Aerith could see it before she lost the White Materia. (Which is part of why they changed the ending line that everyone bitched about.) That reminds me, I don’t quite get the order of events for the white and clear materia. IIUC it’s: - Whispers show up in Remake - Aerith gets planetary (fore?)knowledge via the white materia - Aerith opens a portal to the Patented Whispers And Sephiroth Boss Arena™️ - Party defeats whispers and Sephiroth - Whispers take planetary knowledge from the white materia, and therefore from Aerith - White materia is now clear materia - Much later, Cloud and Aerith bonk their heads real bad and they wake up in Sector 5 - Aerith turns to be a different Aerith who still has the white materia - Aerith gives Cloud the white materia - Cloud wakes up in the forest and gives Aerith the white materia - Aerith mouths something I didn’t catch and gives Cloud the clear materia -  - Cloud now has both the clear and black materia, white materia is MIA Is that correct?
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Mar 12, 2024 17:47
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Aerith returning to the life stream was a thing in the original but a lot less elaborated on until Advent Children so Aerith's "death" in Rebirth didn't bother me that much. The problem with Aerith's death in FF7 is the fact that it's way too famous. Most people who have heard about FF7 already knows about her famous death scene even if they have never played the game before, so it's quite difficult to recapture the same emotions and shock when it came out in 1997. In Rebirth they tried to play around it by fleshing out Aerith's character more with all the new dialogues so people will have more reason to care about her death and the mystery behind her connection to the Lifestream as a Cetra. Whether their execution work or not is another question and ymmv, but I enjoyed the Cloud/Aerith vs Sephiroth fight. It does feel like they are still unsure about actually changing the canon with the way they are wrapping up Rebirth though. I hope they do actually commit to change things up more in the next game. Maybe have Zack appears once more as the worlds reunite and help Cloud snap out of his mental breakdown in the original?
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Mar 12, 2024 17:50
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Is the date with Tifa the canon one? Feels like it should be given the brief conversation you see between her and Aerith.
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Mar 12, 2024 17:52
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You get the same flashback scene with Tifa mentioning Zack to Aerith regardless of whether you're with Tifa or Aerith at the Gold Saucer. For me Tifa works a little better since the finale is so Aerith heavy and the Sector 5 alternate universe scene largely does the same thing as the Gold Saucer bit, just more bittersweet than comedic.
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Mar 12, 2024 17:58
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Pollyanna posted:But that’s going to be even more flailing which is going to make things even worse! From what we're shown that is right until the later part. Sephiroth never actually got the Black Materia, he was using his power over Cloud to influence Cloud to give it to him but as near as we know Cloud always had it, Sephiroth wants him to bring it to him. Cloud and Aerith fall into a pit, which is strongly implied to mean they took a brief dip in the Lifestream. (If you pay attention to Cloud's behavior afterwards he's acting like he got Mako Poisoned.) That (somehow) means they woke up in the comatose bodies of themselves in the other timeline. In the other timeline Aerith still has the White Materia, but her dialogue makes it clear she's still the main Aerith. Getting the White Materia back seems to have restored her odd foreknowledge. She gives the White Materia to Cloud and tosses him back (into the Lifestream?) Cloud wakes up and has the White Materia. He gives it to Aerith who gives him the Clear Materia in exchange. Aerith takes off to go pray. After she gets stabbed the White Materia falls off her hair and bounces before rolling into the water identically to what happens in FF7 After everything, Cloud has the Clear Materia (that Aerith gave him) and the Black Materia (which he had since the Temple of the Ancients.)
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Mar 12, 2024 17:58
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Pollyanna posted:But that’s going to be even more flailing which is going to make things even worse! Oh I never said it was a good thing, or that the writers are able to really nail the ending
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Mar 12, 2024 17:59
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 lmfao
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Mar 12, 2024 18:02
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Oh! There's something I don't see anyone bringing up but:  quote:Speak to the planet. Guess what didn't happen?
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Mar 12, 2024 18:03
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I feel like I'd be more worried if in the original Holy wasn't cast too late to help save the planet and needed the lifestream. I would sorta like to see a world where Aerith survived and if they were able to stop meteor with just holy.
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Mar 12, 2024 18:10
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Pollyanna posted:I thought he or someone else said that the planet itself births those worlds, which would imply the lifestream, right? He does say that the Planet "encompasses myriad worlds" or something along those lines, and that when those worlds end, they return to the Lifestream in a "homecoming." But it's also worth noting that it seems like the Gi's world was also somehow absorbed into Gaia, assuming that's what "subsumed" means in this context, and that definitely wasn't an alternate timeline born from within the Lifestream (because they are specifically not connected to the Lifestream). I find it kind of frustrating because I don't think either theory actually works, which either means it's a third thing nobody's thought of, or there are just a shitload of red herrings. Fucker posted:
And this is why multiverses are fail
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Mar 12, 2024 18:34
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ImpAtom posted:Cloud and Aerith fall into a pit, which is strongly implied to mean they took a brief dip in the Lifestream. (If you pay attention to Cloud's behavior afterwards he's acting like he got Mako Poisoned.) Okay, so then that’s more evidence for them being virtual lifestream realities instead of distinct timelines or parallel universes. Which makes this a lot simpler - all the Zack stuff occurs in the lifestream where everybody is either dead or formed from the memories of the dead. That means there’s only one timeline, the events of OG FF7, and we can safely ignore the other Stamp realities as lifestream dying-dream shenanigans. ImpAtom posted:Oh! There's something I don't see anyone bringing up but: Was that dialogue in Rebirth?
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Mar 12, 2024 18:35
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D.Fuzzbot posted:I would sorta like to see a world where Aerith survived and if they were able to stop meteor
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Mar 12, 2024 18:35
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Pollyanna posted:Was that dialogue in Rebirth? Nope, it's from the original game, but it actually doesn't come up until later in the game. The team actually has to go and find out what happened with the Materia because they otherwise think things are hopeless, it's where the whole "Holy might destroy humanity" thing comes from. I am guessing this time the reveal is going to be "Holy wasn't summoned, oh poo poo, now what?"
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Mar 12, 2024 18:37
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Harrow posted:He does say that the Planet "encompasses myriad worlds" or something along those lines, and that when those worlds end, they return to the Lifestream in a "homecoming." But it's also worth noting that it seems like the Gi's world was also somehow absorbed into Gaia, assuming that's what "subsumed" means in this context, and that definitely wasn't an alternate timeline born from within the Lifestream (because they are specifically not connected to the Lifestream).  Yeah none of this makes sense and I think Square-Enix is pulling Kingdom Hearts style bullshit out of their rear end.
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Mar 12, 2024 18:37
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ImpAtom posted:I am guessing this time the reveal is going to be "Holy wasn't summoned, oh poo poo, now what?" Yeah I'm thinking something like this will happen and the Clear Materia will be important to solving it. The whole Gi situation makes it sound like they found their own Clear Materia and turned it into the Black Materia by pouring all their despair and desire for oblivion into it. Their "ultimate materia" that they found, the "purest materia," was a clear one, not the Black Materia. Which might mean that this Clear Materia Cloud has is something very powerful.
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Mar 12, 2024 18:38
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ImpAtom posted:Nope, it's from the original game, but it actually doesn't come up until later in the game. The team actually has to go and find out what happened with the Materia because they otherwise think things are hopeless, it's where the whole "Holy might destroy humanity" thing comes from. Maybe, but in that case I think the reveal is going to be “Holy wasn’t cast yet”, and they’ll add a section where they have to recover the materia and cast it for real this time or something. Not that we’re going to do a No-Holy% run. That would avoid majorly changing the story, which SE seems to prefer from here on out.
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Mar 12, 2024 18:39
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HD DAD posted:I would sorta like to see a world where Aerith survived and if they were able to stop meteor with just holy by having Dio catch it with his tree trunk arms and throwing it into the sun. I think Dio could just thrust at the Meteor and it'll smash into pieces
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Mar 12, 2024 18:45
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$50 says Reunion gets a Playable Aerith DLC for $19.99 extra.
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Mar 12, 2024 18:46
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thebardyspoon posted:One thing that I think really shows they didn't have a grand plan for the whispers or if they did, they abandoned it largely, just imo, is that in Remake, Red XIII identifies them as "arbiters of fate" without having found that out from Aerith right? So presumably a thing he's heard of in legends or whatever, then in this game he and Aerith both remember them despite her saying the memories have been drained from her, they assume because of what happened at the end of Remake. Red knows about the whispers because Aerith touched him in Hojo's lab giving him the knowledge she had just like she did with Marlene. Pollyanna posted:$50 says Reunion gets a Playable Aerith DLC for $19.99 extra. God, I hope not, I really don't like playing as Aerith, her ATB charge is so loving slow without a ton of materia to offset it. Now if she was as bullshit as Intergrade Yuffie was to the main cast during Remake then that might be ok. Ardryn fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Mar 12, 2024 |
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Mar 12, 2024 18:47
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Harrow posted:
Coward  Personally having to figure out a Marathon Infinity Style chart excites me to no end.
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Mar 12, 2024 18:54
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Harrow posted:Yeah I'm thinking something like this will happen and the Clear Materia will be important to solving it. gently caress, this makes too much sense, third game Cloud and gang go around saving each huge/magnus materia location causing the Clear to fill a little bit more with "hope" until it becomes True White Materia Bullshit Severer of Time or what the gently caress ever allowing them to beat Omniverse Sephiroth and his meteor too.
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Mar 12, 2024 18:55
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I cast Wish! 
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Mar 12, 2024 18:59
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Mar 12, 2024 19:07
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Am I the only one who thinks Sephiroth is gonna jack the weapons and turn them from lifestream whales into their original biological mecha rear end selves at North Crater?
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Mar 12, 2024 19:24
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That’d be pretty lame. I like how the planet itself came up with the freaky kaiju. Making it Sephiroth the whole time sucks.
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Mar 12, 2024 19:31
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Yeah that does seem to be the implication, especially given how gentle the Weapons in Rebirth are with humans compared to the ones in the original. The ending scene with the Weapons did seem to imply they were being twisted in some way. Also I would agree that's dumb if it's the way they go, I like the "Planet lashing out like a cornered animal" element to Weapons. Best case scenario it's just that Sephiroth's going to have one Weapon that's his, and the kaiju Weapons will appear as planet-defenders as normal.
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Mar 12, 2024 19:37
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Pollyanna posted:That’d be pretty lame. I like how the planet itself came up with the freaky kaiju. Making it Sephiroth the whole time sucks. Yeah well, tough. It ain't my ff7 if a meat Gundam doesn't Leeroy Jenkins clean out of the ocean and get it's head blown off by the shinra military industrial complexes biggest dick.
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Mar 12, 2024 19:42
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