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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:
It came from the third heart.
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Mar 13, 2024 04:26
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Dingleberry2 posted:I think up until this point it's just been foot soldiers that have been killed in the line of duty, so no biggie. Diplomacy and politics were still on the table. Now that Ishido's right hand man is a sloppy Joe, there's no more feigning polite ignorance in order to avoid outright war. Yeah, everything before this were the equivalent of border skirmishes or localized gunfights -- stuff that could be contained if needed. What Toranaga's son did can't be undone. Though, I do appreciate the zoom-in at the end. "Are we in some sort of ... Shogun total war?" Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 04:30
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counterfeitsaint posted:So obviously the end of episode 4 is a huge provocation and everything, but why is everyone suddenly like "Oh now it's gonna be war". Toranaga snuck out of Osaka, killing a bunch of guards in the process, expressly against the orders of the regents. After that, wasn't war inevitable? I mean barring something like Toranaga's abject surrender or possibly suicide. It's more complicated than the other posters have said. The group that attacked Toranaga's party as he was escaping were specifically one of the Christian lords acting independently of the regency council. They were trying to kill Blackthorne, in fact, and at the time they didn't even know Toranaga was there until all the poo poo hit the fan. Because the Christian lord was acting on his own, the casualties are not of concern to Ishido. The messengers that got murked here were an honor guard sent by Ishido personally. Anyway, what a fantastic episode. My friends and I all chorused "holy poo poo" when the first cannon shot hit.
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Mar 13, 2024 05:00
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I don't like too many television shows but this is one of the best things I've ever watched.
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Mar 13, 2024 05:02
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I'm a sucker for good mise en scene and this show is a loving feast for the eyes. I've watched a few episodes multiple times because I love all the attention to detail in all the armors and sets, it's incredibly immersive. I'm not too happy about the subtle focus vignetting they do in some scenes, but the rest more than makes up for it.
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Mar 13, 2024 05:05
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Saganlives posted:I'm not too happy about the subtle focus vignetting they do in some scenes, but the rest more than makes up for it. I forget the technicalities of it, but I really like that when the rack-focus changes, the whole frame warps a little bit. Real old-school lens feel to it.
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Mar 13, 2024 05:17
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Entorwellian posted:I don't like too many television shows but this is one of the best things I've ever watched. Somebody earlier likened it to Chernobyl and yeah that is the last time I remember a series just utterly blowing me away in every aspect of its production just being flawless. Edit: Andor was probably the next closest, but Shogun really does feel like something special.
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Mar 13, 2024 05:18
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Jerusalem posted:Somebody earlier likened it to Chernobyl and yeah that is the last time I remember a series just utterly blowing me away in every aspect of its production just being flawless. Yeah, there's been like four shows that have swept me off my feet like this in the last 5 years: Shogun, Chernobyl, The Last of Us, and Blue Eye Samurai. I'd wager Andor would join that list if/when I ever get around to watching it.
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Mar 13, 2024 05:39
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Bloody Pom posted:Based on dialogue in the episode I feel like the Portugese deliberately gave the Japanese older, shittier cannons/mortars. After all, with all the shady dealings they'd been up to in Japan's overseas holdings, why would they risk giving them weapons on parity with their own? Oh, yeah, I meant more I don't know if the Dutch cannons off Blackthorne's ship would have been able to make the shots seen every time. Maybe they would, I have no sense one way or the other Phenotype posted:Why was Blackthorne's journal written in Portuguese? Wouldn't have he written in English (and then it would have been an impenetrable enigma to Mariko) Good question, tbh. Was it just his journal, or was it the ship's rutter as well? (I had to look that up the first time it was mentioned, a rutter was kind of an early type of marine chart, with written directions from port to port instead of maps.) If the latter, I thought it was supposed to have been pilfered from the Portuguese, and that's what gave them the ability to sail through the Strait of Magellan Phy fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 06:36
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I'm not sure what it's supposed to be. I know they stole someone's book and that's how they were able to find the passage to the Japans. And then they also had a log of them burning Catholic settlements. So the book they found would be in Portuguese, and their own notes would likely be in English or in Dutch. I assume that the priests in Osaka did not read English well, because the book had that note that looks like they are trying to translate "burned to hell" into Portuguese. But if they don't read English, how did they even know much about the log in the first place? And how would the Japanese ever even translate it? It seems to me that if the book is a log of what Blackthorne's crew has done, that would be considered proof of piracy, would be written in either English or Dutch, and thus, be complete gibberish to anyone but Blackthorne.
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Mar 13, 2024 06:50
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Mariko was reading his journal, not the rutter. The journal was full of poo poo like "lol we hosed this island up" and "burned that whole city to the ground RIP bitches" which I thought would be viewed more negatively by her, but then she talks about how much pain she's endured because of her enemies and I think that in a weird way makes them kindred spirits. She understands why the Anjin doesn't show mercy to his enemies, and maybe she even admires it because she longs for that sort of agency in order to have her own revenge.
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Mar 13, 2024 07:02
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So he conveniently wrote his own journal in Portuguese?
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Mar 13, 2024 07:06
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Cojawfee posted:So he conveniently wrote his own journal in Portuguese? Yeah, I think this is a plot hole tbh. It's conceivable he wrote in Portuguese I guess but I don't think it's likely. I'm willing to let it slide, but it definitely feels like a contrivance they tried to slip past the audience for narrative convenience. edit: the other possibility I suppose is that he wrote it in Latin, which Mariko can read, but that also begs the question of "why?" edit edit: You know what, I thought about it more and the Jesuits would know that if the journal was in English then the Japanese would never be able to translate it without Blackthorne. It makes sense, then, that they translated it to Portuguese because then they'd know Mariko could translate it further. They gave it to Toranaga explicitly in an attempt to discredit Blackthorne. Cojawfee posted:I'm not sure what it's supposed to be. I know they stole someone's book and that's how they were able to find the passage to the Japans. And then they also had a log of them burning Catholic settlements. So the book they found would be in Portuguese, and their own notes would likely be in English or in Dutch. I assume that the priests in Osaka did not read English well, because the book had that note that looks like they are trying to translate "burned to hell" into Portuguese. But if they don't read English, how did they even know much about the log in the first place? And how would the Japanese ever even translate it? It seems to me that if the book is a log of what Blackthorne's crew has done, that would be considered proof of piracy, would be written in either English or Dutch, and thus, be complete gibberish to anyone but Blackthorne. I'm sure now that you're right. The priests DID translate it to Portuguese. Saganlives fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 07:18
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That cannon scene was so well done When the son signals, the unexpected pop in the fog behind him, coming from an unexpected direction and in an unexpected part of the negative space in the frame The fact that Blackthorne introduced chain shot a few minutes before, so when we see the guys vorpalized we immediately understand So good
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Mar 13, 2024 07:23
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I really liked Blackthorne being all "well, I had sex last night "
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Mar 13, 2024 07:35
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The official podcast is worth a listen. It has interviews with production, cast and experts and goes into decisions like the change to Blackthorne teaching Toranaga's men to use cannon rather than muskets, as in the book. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtab2lerJgI
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Mar 13, 2024 07:47
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Jerusalem posted:Somebody earlier likened it to Chernobyl and yeah that is the last time I remember a series just utterly blowing me away in every aspect of its production just being flawless. nobody remembers The Americans  we've seen FX kill at historical dramas in the recent past!that said dear god i hate the stylistic distorted and blurry af wide angle lens they use on half the shots, i mean goddamn you can see (straight) lines with massive curves along the edges
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Mar 13, 2024 07:47
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Yeah the whole "and also he knows all about european infantry tactics which are entirely unheard of in japan!" part of the book was a little too silly and marty stu so I think cannon is a good change.
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Mar 13, 2024 07:48
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edit; on second thought, I am sure the show will tell us in an episode or two.
Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 08:03
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hailthefish posted:Yeah the whole "and also he knows all about european infantry tactics which are entirely unheard of in japan!" part of the book was a little too silly and marty stu so I think cannon is a good change. Also it reinforces Blackthorne's character as someone who's got to improvise and play to his strengths to stay alive.
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Mar 13, 2024 09:01
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drat, they turned those messengers into chunky paste.
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Mar 13, 2024 10:21
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Tankbuster posted:drat, they turned those messengers into chunky paste. god that was sick as
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Mar 13, 2024 10:33
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YaketySass posted:Also it reinforces Blackthorne's character as someone who's got to improvise and play to his strengths to stay alive. hailthefish posted:Yeah the whole "and also he knows all about european infantry tactics which are entirely unheard of in japan!" part of the book was a little too silly and marty stu so I think cannon is a good change.
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Mar 13, 2024 10:39
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:I love that he's consistently presented as sharp, but not always extremely quick, often wrongfooted conversationally but he tends to pick himself back up. I like how Jarvis' acting shows the gears churning in Blackthorne's head and then clicking into place. In Ep. 1 when he realizes the Portuguese have kept knowledge of other European powers from Japan. In Ep. 3 when he realizes the Black Ship is their only chance of running the blockade, and when he catches himself from rejecting the offer to train a regiment. And in Ep. 4 when he realizes that anything he has to say about land battle tactics would amount to jack squat anyway, so time to come clean. Edit, and my favorite line delivery: "No one's going to stop him?" "No one's going to stop him!" Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 11:02
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Tankbuster posted:drat, they turned those messengers into chunky paste. I'm sure part of it was down to shock, but Jozen being so utterly hosed up and still being all,"gently caress YOU GUYS, MY BOSS IS GONNA BEAT ALL YOUR COWARD ASSES!" did a pretty good job of selling that he was a scary loving dude.
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Mar 13, 2024 11:05
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TIL a “koku” is a year’s ration of rice for one man, or about 180 liters. Can’t wait for Blackthorn’s reaction when 240 of those (43,200 liters) gets delivered to his house next month.
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Mar 13, 2024 11:24
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Best episode so far, I think. Toranaga’s son’s actions were genuinely surprising and the use of gore really elevated the surprise. I watched the old TV show a long time ago but I don’t remember a lot of it. Plus they’re changing stuff as well
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Mar 13, 2024 11:47
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CatstropheWaitress posted:milk dribbling gently caress smear I saw them live in '07, they opened for the poo poo-Eating Samas. Not bad, cool t-shirt. HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:
That's what I was expecting too - "you're going to drill like Englishmen" or something. Shishkahuben fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 13:29
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kiimo posted:Clearly the production also has history nerds working for it who came to similar conclusions on cannons vs muskets in the hands of a sailor Also the tactics Blackthorne teaches them to use in the novel were already widely known in Japan at the time; depending on how credible you consider certain accounts of the battle of Nagashino, they figured out the whole "ranks of tightly drilled gunners firing volleys in succession, covering for each other to reload" thing either around the same time as it was developed in Europe (the more likely option; contemporary Korean records mention the Japanese using ranked volley fire during the invasions, which were within a couple years of the Dutch starting to use similar tactics against the Spanish), or a full decade and change earlier (this is the popular story, but contemporary records don't line up with later accounts that mention ranked volley fire being employed, and it's more likely that the gunners at the battle were used more as sharpshooters, with the real deciding factor being the movable barricades the Oda brought to disrupt the cavalry tactics the Takeda were famous for).
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Mar 13, 2024 13:46
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CatstropheWaitress posted:milk dribbling gently caress smear Yeah Blackthorne really gives some credence to the old "curse like a sailor" stereotype, he's pretty great at coming up with creative curses. Loved that scene where him and Rodrigues were poo poo-talking each other from their ships.
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Mar 13, 2024 13:57
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Tankbuster posted:drat, they turned those messengers into chunky paste. Nebara Jozen: Haha yeah well don't shoot the messenger Nagakado: 
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Mar 13, 2024 14:09
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:
lol lmao lol I've re-watched the scene a few times and I can't tell if Yabu is unconvincingly feigning disbelief or if he's so bewildered that he's nearly unable to get a coherent sentence out. Both would be believable but I can't tell from his reaction if he was in on the plan. Shishkahuben fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 14:51
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Yabu might not understand what's just happened, but look at Omi behind his shoulder. He's almost bursting with glee.
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Mar 13, 2024 15:05
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Aww poo poo! Even Seppuku won’t be enough to take this back!
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Mar 13, 2024 15:11
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Yabushige’s just trying to survive through this all so he can continue with his own pervert poo poo
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Mar 13, 2024 15:12
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C-Euro posted:Great ep, I especially liked the scene of Fuji and Blackthorne exchanging gifts yes, but it's stuff that will likely be in later episodes so I won't go into it. Though you do meet some of his descendants in later books After the episode I looked around for a trailer, couldn't find one but I did see the title for episode 6 which makes me think they're going to cover a fascinating history lesson from the books I was convinced they'd cut.
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Mar 13, 2024 15:16
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47C1dMGmPdg Here is the Ep. 5 trailer. Edit: There are apparently spoilers in the comments so watch at your own risk. If you don't scroll down you should be fine. ShowTime fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 15:33
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ShowTime posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47C1dMGmPdg Here is the Ep. 5 trailer. loving spoilers in the comments
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Mar 13, 2024 15:45
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I just reread the ep. 4 final scene as it happens in the book. (Edit; Spoilering it, just to be safe.) It could have easily been a five-minute gore-fest. Yabu and Omi and Naga are doing a phalanx musket mock battle for Jozen and his retinue, using 2,500 (!) soldiers. Meanwhile, Jozen is scoffing at how un-samurai it all is, but admits it's effective. Yabu boasts that it's mostly his doing, with some seed ideas from Blackthorne. So Jozen suggests: Why not kill Blackthorne, sounds like you got all you need from him? So there's kinda a nice incentive for the reader to be cool with Jozen getting killed. But Yabu dismisses that. Bayonets are drawn, and Jozen makes comments about swords. And then Naga finally announces it is time to avenge all of Ishido's insults. His men form up in musket rows. One of Jozen's men makes a lunge for Naga, gets his head blown off. Yabu is all, What are you doing!? while Jozen's all, Haha, Ishido knows all about this musket secret already! I sent a pigeon and a messenger last night. A Naga lieutenant presents the strangled body of the pigeon and the severed head of the messenger, which rolls to a stop when it hits a rock. Naga's men laugh at this. Another Jozen man makes an attempt, and he too gets shot 20 times. Omi offers to intervene but Yabu turns it down; he sees the writing on the wall. ("It had been so easy to maneuver Naga," Omi thinks.) Yabu decides to leave Naga to it, and orders Blackthorne and Omi to stay as witnesses. Jozen shouts, Yabu-samaaaaaa!" and the scene cuts to Blackthorne hours later in a daze at what he witnessed -- They have no sense of sin, he thinks of everybody, including Mariko, as he watches them go about their night during a gale (symbolism!). A few pages later, after some comic relief about Blackthorne's botched Japanese, we learn that Jozen "had been allowed to crawl away, then gutted slowly while he screamed, his blood dribbling with the phlegm, then left to die." The dogs eventually get to him. Also, all his lieutenants do the seppuku. Heads lopped, guts spilled. Yeah, cannon paste and a swift beheading was the way to go I think. Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 15:48
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| # ? May 20, 2024 09:49 |
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The cannon version worked out great but I kind of preferred the whole "haha nice try" aspect in the book with the messenger pigeons and stuff as Ishido's guys slowly realizes they're hosed.
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Mar 13, 2024 16:06
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