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dead gay comedy forums)
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You can troll better than "I think someone got something wrong on one the past three pages" and i take your refusal to do so as a personal insult
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Mar 15, 2024 21:12
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| # ? May 10, 2024 00:42 |
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It's not an insult. And it's very understandable to get confused on surplus value vs use value vs exchange...
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Mar 15, 2024 21:15
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So when a machine is made, it absorbs surplus value from that machine. The machine exists and has a purpose, it has a use value. The machine can be sold for an exchange value. As the machine is used, it's value is depreciated, or transferred, to the commodity it creates. The commodity has a use value, and can be sold for an exchange value. A machine can only make a maximum of products. Once completed, all value from the machine will have be transferred. I have no issues with any of this, but can any of you see how this sets up the contradiction previously mentioned? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 15, 2024 21:21
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Classic Bill
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Mar 15, 2024 21:56
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BillsPhoenix posted:I dunno, ask fart Simpson, I didn't claim Marx said it, Marx is real consistent that labor is the only source of surplus value. fart simpson and i agree. labor is the only source of value, but not the only source of wealth. "labor is the source of all wealth" is the thing that marxists are quick to correct, because marx himself literally corrected it in one of his most famous writings the weird thing here is that there are a lot of things marxists DO vociferously disagree with each other about, mostly but not entirely limited to historical questions of which leader was in the right or which strategy is effective or whatever. there's a lot more technical questions regarding who's in which class, who benefits from whose exploitation, etc. but you literally don't understand the basics well enough to be able to discover or understand these actual disagreements, because you're stuck on the equivalent of "my teacher says 2 + 2 is 4, but my dad says 1 + 3 is 4. can't these so-called mathematicians even get their stories straight???" BillsPhoenix posted:So when a machine is made, it absorbs surplus value from that machine. The machine exists and has a purpose, it has a use value. The machine can be sold for an exchange value. i've bolded your mistake (or at least extremely confused and unclear phrasing) here. machines don't produce surplus value (though they may represent a surplus value some human produced). if one machine is used to make another, value is transferred from the first to the second in proportion to the amount of the first that is worn away or used up. value is similarly transferred from any raw materials or fuel used in the process of production, but value IS created and added by the labor of any person who is actually involved in and necessary to this production process i am once again going to tell you that there is no contradiction between this and anything else you've quoted, and if YOU think there is, you're going to have to put on your big boy pants and actually write it out Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 22:50 on Mar 15, 2024 |
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Mar 15, 2024 22:44
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sophists, like d'n'd posters, love long speeches because they bore and confuse their audiences, thereby distracting them from the contents and rigor of the argument they are presenting
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Mar 15, 2024 23:35
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BillsPhoenix posted:So when a machine is made, it absorbs surplus value from that machine. it seems like your argument is predicated on the existence of “that machine.” can you explain what “that machine” is
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Mar 16, 2024 01:22
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The Voice of Labor posted:sophists, like d'n'd posters, love long speeches because they bore and confuse their audiences, thereby distracting them from the contents and rigor of the argument they are presenting
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Mar 16, 2024 02:22
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Mar 16, 2024 03:01
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the great sophismo
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Mar 16, 2024 03:03
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Hi, I read this thread very slow and will see your reply in a week or so. What are fixed and variable capital and why are they relevant to the question?
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Mar 16, 2024 13:05
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Dancer posted:Hi, I read this thread very slow and will see your reply in a week or so. Variable capital is essentially wages paid for labor. Constant capital is most of the rest. The means of production. Raw materials, machinery, real estate, non-wage operating costs. They're both core components of the labor theory of value. If you go through some Marx math exercises you'll see why variable capital is called variable and constant capital is called constant.
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Mar 16, 2024 13:55
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this is another case where marx likes to use a group of similar words. i myself might be mixing up a few of these and would appreciate corrections if so VARIABLE capital buys labor-power and ultimately generates surplus value in the form of salable commodities CONSTANT capital buys machinery and fuel and so forth and merely delivers its existing value to future commodities. it may be fixed, ie tools and machinery that remain in place through multiple production cycles and degrade fractionally with use, or circulating, ie direct or auxiliary components and energy sources that are completely consumed on use i bring this up because marx takes a bunch of his contemporaries to task for confusing these categories. in particular, he hates it when liberal economists map circulating/fixed onto variable/constant or the reverse, such that they treat human laborers as either machinery or fuel for machinery (and therefore fool their readers and/or themselves into thinking that value is generated by something besides workers)
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Mar 16, 2024 17:06
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if you're doing the math for your factory, constant capital is money already spent so it's defined numbers, it's constants in a formula. variable capital is an x in the formula because the factory owner can pay out x wages this week, fire eveyone except the orphans and pay out y wages next week, it's variables in a formula
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Mar 16, 2024 18:00
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it's also variable because the amount of return it generates for you will vary with stuff like the length of the working day or how intense and fast-paced the work you impose on your laborers is. you generally can't squeeze more production out of a machine or a slab of material but you can out of a worker (and conversely, if you aren't paying close attention that worker can slack off and generate LESS than you were counting on)
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Mar 16, 2024 18:09
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Lucky duckies!
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Mar 16, 2024 18:26
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yeah, that would be a good thing to expound on a little. you can't get any more or less out of fixed capital investments, you can only speed up or slow down how long it takes to transfer the cost of the equiptment or space into the product that it's being used to make. eg I can buy a laptop for $500 and download and view porn on it for 4 hours a day or 8 hours a day. I end up watching the same amount of porn before the fans seize up and the battery fails and I need to buy a new laptop, but in the second hypothetical I do it in half the time (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 16, 2024 18:36
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you know what let's all just read https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch08.htm and reconvene
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Mar 16, 2024 19:14
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marx thread: just read it you fuckers
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Mar 16, 2024 19:18
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Cuttlefush posted:marx thread: just read it you fuckers it's great that more people in this thread are reading it than in any other time that I can think of really. (for those who are reading along, doing questions, writing stuff, collaborating in general: you are cool as gently caress. You are awesome.)
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Mar 16, 2024 19:22
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your ik voice is blooming
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Mar 16, 2024 19:31
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I'm reading
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Mar 16, 2024 20:18
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why should I read Marx when i can just emptyquote ferrinus
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Mar 16, 2024 23:38
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ram dass in hell posted:why should I read Marx when i can just emptyquote ferrinus - every fascist ever
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Mar 16, 2024 23:54
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Buck Wildman posted:I'm reading
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Mar 17, 2024 01:32
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dead gay comedy forums posted:it's great that more people in this thread are reading it than in any other time that I can think of really. I genuinely believe Bills had a positive impact in this thread
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Mar 17, 2024 02:09
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Halser posted:I genuinely believe Bills had a positive impact in this thread best thing to happen since the reign of croup
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Mar 17, 2024 02:11
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we definitely got some 10/10 effort posts out of it. my brain feels more powerful from reading them.
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Mar 17, 2024 03:30
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Lasting Damage posted:we definitely got some 10/10 effort posts out of it. my brain feels more powerful from reading them. You know what else you could read to make your brain feel more powerful?
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Mar 17, 2024 11:09
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Capital vol 1 is genuinely an interesting read so long as you’re used to metastatic footnotes - once you get to the worked examples from British industry it becomes almost breezy. When I finished it I was like ‘what’s all the fuss about, are people just allergic to linen’. Vol 3 isn’t too bad either Vol 2 makes me feel like I have undiagnosed ADHD and I’ve never got more than about a quarter of the way through
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Mar 17, 2024 11:25
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The footnotes have some of the strongest posting energy in them. Just like1 1this guy is a total clown who has never been right about anything in his life, as we can all see
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Mar 17, 2024 11:28
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they do benefit from actually being at the foot of the page. wouldn’t fancy reading an edition where I have to keep my pinky stuck in the back pages and leaf back and forth to read twelve paras about comical French man monsieur Bastiat
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Mar 17, 2024 11:33
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reading classical marxist texts is always fun because of how brutal they are, even/especially to people they respect a lot lenin and luxemburg's polemics about e.g. the national question are quite frank that they don't think much in the other's position on an issue they consider vital, but they also clearly consider each other a capital-c Comrade in the broader struggle
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Mar 17, 2024 12:37
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Orange Devil posted:The footnotes have some of the strongest posting energy in them. i especially like when he adds (!) into direct quotes
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Mar 17, 2024 13:35
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(!) is German for "get a load of this rear end in a top hat"
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Mar 17, 2024 13:57
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Orange Devil posted:You know what else you could read to make your brain feel more powerful? indeed, I think its time to read Volume 1 a second time
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Mar 17, 2024 16:43
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Orange Devil posted:(!) is German for "get a load of this rear end in a top hat"
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Mar 17, 2024 17:14
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Buck Wildman posted:I'm reading [Marx] Posted but they still readin
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Mar 18, 2024 00:19
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Halser posted:I genuinely believe Bills had a positive impact in this thread It was actually shocking how few people have read marx in here, and even fewer have even a vague understanding. Lots of pro trump self proclaimed Marxists though lol. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 18, 2024 01:33
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| # ? May 10, 2024 00:42 |
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BillsPhoenix posted:It was actually shocking how few people have read marx in here, and even fewer have even a vague understanding. stfu!
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Mar 18, 2024 01:39
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