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ImpAtom posted:Why is she unconscious though? We see what happens in Cloud's mind/the other timeline/whatever: He blocks the sword and actually sends the Masamune flying, where it lands on the ground well away from the still-praying Aerith. she's also unconscious for the whole of zack's timeline before somehow shunting herself and cloud from the temple of the ancients into their comatose bodies. if aerith is somehow astrally projecting herself between iterations of reality (and her manifestation in the final phase of the endboss suggests that's the case) then she'd be returning to the version of herself in the world where cloud parried the blade and woke up in his arms cloud's in a similar situation, except instead of being able to freely view and interact with those planes as aerith and sephiroth can he's started to wildly billy pilgrim his way through all of them at once, which fits his own fractured and incomplete identity
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Mar 17, 2024 00:56
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the sequence beforehand in the doomed world has Cloud repeatedly being offered multiple choices and then having that choice immediately nullified, the same thing happens regardless. We then see Zack in multiple worlds making different decisions on whether to try to save Cloud or Biggs, only for either option to end with the exact same result. Cloud saved Aerith but she still died, because Sephiroth is manipulating fate
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Mar 17, 2024 00:59
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Oxxidation posted:she's also unconscious for the whole of zack's timeline before somehow shunting herself and cloud from the temple of the ancients into their comatose body. if aerith is somehow astrally projecting herself between iterations of reality (and her manifestation in the final phase of the endboss suggests that's the case) then she'd be returning to the version of herself in the world where cloud parried the blade and woke up in his arms I feel like I'm missing something. In Zack's timeline she was in a coma because she was in a chopper crash/the disaster. (It obviously isn't something that applies to all the cast because alt-universe Red XIII was awake enough to cause the crash before he got gunned down.) After that she was in a coma. Seemingly being in a coma is what allowed Aerith and Cloud to end up in that timeline. (I imagine this will also play into Cloud's basically-coma state in Mideel.) In the (for lack of a better word) parry timeline, she wasn't in a coma. She was praying like she was in the main timeline. In that timeline Cloud parried the blade and Aerith was 100% unharmed. In the 'main' timeline, she got stabbed. This cut her ribbon and sent the materia flying and then she collapsed. Cloud catches her, Sephiroth flicks the blood at him. And then there's another timeline where her ribbon got cut and she got knocked out/put into a coma and Aerith's soul ended up in that timeline? What happened in that timeline that ended up with Aerith collapsed in Cloud's arms unharmed except for her ribbon being cut?
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Mar 17, 2024 01:04
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On another note, I've never really been all that partial to Price of Freedom (it's got a strong motif but the instrumentation has never done anything for me, I find it kind of cloying), but this game utilizes the melody pretty much perfectly.
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Mar 17, 2024 01:07
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Augus posted:the sequence beforehand in the doomed world has Cloud repeatedly being offered multiple choices and then having that choice immediately nullified, the same thing happens regardless. We then see Zack in multiple worlds making different decisions on whether to try to save Cloud or Biggs, only for either option to end with the exact same result. Man, I felt real bad for Biggs in this game. He's the only survivor of his friends, fails at everything he tries after, and then just ends up getting shot by a random trooper. Man was better off just dying when the plate dropped.
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Mar 17, 2024 01:37
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What's wild to me is people who hate Zack. How can you hate Zack? He's just such a good dude Edit: I don't mean hate how Zack was used or the plot, but hating his character*
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Mar 17, 2024 02:16
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This is exactly what I mean by the execution of the ending dragging the rest of the plot down.
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Mar 17, 2024 03:13
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Augus posted:Wakes up from what? If she didn’t get stabbed what is she waking up from Nap time
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Mar 17, 2024 03:14
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I absolutely wanted more Zack, the 5 minute cuts over to him and then moving away were teeth grtting.
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Mar 17, 2024 03:26
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In Intergrade Zack runs to the church and opens it up to be like "Aerith  ?" and everyone is cryingWas that retconned
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Mar 17, 2024 03:38
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They should have given Zack a few small combat sections so I could have a chance to figure out his play style before the literal final boss fight.
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Mar 17, 2024 03:42
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The question of “is Aerith alive or has Cloud had a complete mental break” isn’t an either-or. It’s a pretty classic sci-fi/fantasy trope for fantastical plot devices to be metaphors for real emotional or mental issues, and this is doubly true for FF7 and Cloud. Pretty much everything that happens to Cloud in OG FF7 could just about happen in a reasonably straight story: Cloud feels like a failure, hides his identity in shame when he returns to his home town, his commander goes crazy and kills everyone, Cloud gets lucky and takes him out but suffers a massive trauma and falls into a coma for years. When he wakes up he’s so completely mentally broken that he constructs a new personality based on his own ideas of masculinity and this one cool guy he knew. It turns out the commander is still alive, Cloud vows to stop him, but because of his mental problems is weirdly drawn to him. None of this requires magic, though it would be a pretty pulpy story and no doubt actual mental health professionals would have many disagreements with it, but hardly outside the realm of straight fiction. But the magic Jenova cells etc give it a bit of excitement. My point is that you can still have a story where Aerith is alive but as a spirit, or in an alternative dimension, or whatever, and it’s still a metaphor for Cloud’s deteriorating mental state. Anyway, my opinion of the ending: generally bad! My issue isn’t that Aerith should have lived, just that it is ridiculous that they go on that much about defying fate, and the “unknown journey” and then just maintain the same basic status quo as the original game. Turns out fate couldn’t be defied after all! I mean, Jesus, the tagline in the ad was “Those destined for rebirth do not fear the unknown”. Saving Aerith is one obvious way they could have changed things up - and having Cloud finally defy destiny and deflect Sephiroth’s blade only for the game to glitch and actually he killed her after all might be the most bullshit way of maintaining that status quo. But they could have say, had Zack come to the main timeline permanently instead. Or a hundred different things. Instead, Aerith is either dead or effectively dead, Cloud is mentally broken as previously, and the gang is off on the same path as previously. This article pretty much describes my opinion, though they’re far too vitriolic on the game as a whole: https://www.pastemagazine.com/games...r-needed-to-ask
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Mar 17, 2024 04:11
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oh christ, that author's tweets pop up on my feeds every so often and he's unbearable
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Mar 17, 2024 04:15
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:In Intergrade Zack runs to the church and opens it up to be like "Aerith No. They were refugees after the Midgar disaster
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Mar 17, 2024 04:37
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Comrade Fakename posted:The question of “is Aerith alive or has Cloud had a complete mental break” isn’t an either-or. It’s a pretty classic sci-fi/fantasy trope for fantastical plot devices to be metaphors for real emotional or mental issues, and this is doubly true for FF7 and Cloud. iadwtp and i also think they made a mistake by waffling on the whole unknown journey thing. This journey has been anything but unknown - almost everything I thought would happen happened.
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Mar 17, 2024 04:44
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Caidin posted:I absolutely wanted more Zack, the 5 minute cuts over to him and then moving away were teeth grtting. give me 100000 hours of Zack. Zack dot com
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Mar 17, 2024 04:46
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ImpAtom posted:No. They were refugees after the Midgar disaster There's no point at which that could have happened, though. In Rebirth, we see Zack enter Midgar with Cloud, then immediately see the news footage of Aerith being loaded into a helicopter. There's no opportunity for him to show up, all cleaned up, to her church thinking she might be there.
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Mar 17, 2024 05:09
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Shhhhh shh shh shh. No think. Only play.
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Mar 17, 2024 05:12
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Oxxidation posted:oh christ, that author's tweets pop up on my feeds every so often and he's unbearable Heh, I don’t really disagree, but I agree with him here.
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Mar 17, 2024 05:23
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I buy into Aerith died and is alive theory. I think she's around in at least two of them. That rpgsite article is one I largely agree with. I also think Cloud is seeing the alive Aerith at the end. Calling it mysterbox nonsense is really harsh and presumptuous. It's fine to like it but thinking you know better than the developers is just some pretentious nonsense. It also comes off as "why didn't they make a straight remake?!?!" bitching that we saw when Remake came out. Now if the 3rd game simply ends up in the same place as the OG I'd be very inclined to agree with that statement but until then I think the next one is going to be really wild. It's super obvious now that there are multiple timelines with characters in various states of health and if they play with that idea a lot more than in this one then it's going to be bananas.
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Mar 17, 2024 05:42
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there's not much of the original canon left that the last two games' tweaks haven't severely impacted in some way. rebirth gave me all the original material callbacks i could have wanted so i hereby give the final entry permission to get weird with it
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Mar 17, 2024 05:44
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Jimbot posted:Now if the 3rd game simply ends up in the same place as the OG I'd be very inclined to agree with that statement but until then I think the next one is going to be really wild. It's super obvious now that there are multiple timelines with characters in various states of health and if they play with that idea a lot more than in this one then it's going to be bananas. I'm sorry to disappoint but: https://www.eurogamer.net/final-fantasy-7-remake-trilogy-will-link-with-advent-children-confirms-producer quote:"We are finally going to link up with Advent Children, that is going to be part of canon," said Kitase. "The overall storyline, the developments, will not go wildly out in a way that will not add up to Advent Children in the end. I don't think anyone wanted that, that's not what we're looking to create here.
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Mar 17, 2024 05:46
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Things can change from now until the 3rd game. Like Oxxidation said, all these things were all severely impacted by the changes. It simply just isn't the OG anymore.
Jimbot fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Mar 17, 2024 |
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Mar 17, 2024 05:52
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i also think "advent children will be part of canon" is a pretty slippery statement now that it's been confirmed multiple planets/timelines are a thing
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Mar 17, 2024 05:56
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That's why I included the part where he also said, "Ultimately, we're not trying to change the Final Fantasy 7 story into something really different." There's obviously going to be multiverse stuff going on in part 3 but I think it's likely to end up in the same (or very similar) place as the original when all is said and done. Harrow fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Mar 17, 2024 |
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Mar 17, 2024 05:57
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To expand on my previous post: when Aerith gets stabbed by Sephiroth we see glimpses of Cloud's reaction from the OG, where he's yelling at Sephiroth. So that timeline is still there, OG didn't get erased. Maybe you're right and they become cowards and do the easy thing. Or maybe that it ties into Advent Children in interesting ways where that timeline is simply one of many that goes on and this one is one where things end up different (in the finer details). Like one where Barret doesn't end up as an oil baron. You're still killing the planet, friend. Maybe we'll get a scene with Cid where he's yelling at everyone to sit down and drink their goddamn tea.
Jimbot fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Mar 17, 2024 |
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Mar 17, 2024 06:00
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Oxxidation posted:there's not much of the original canon left that the last two games' tweaks haven't severely impacted in some way. rebirth gave me all the original material callbacks i could have wanted so i hereby give the final entry permission to get weird with it That's probably why they set up all this new stuff with Wutai in this game. The war with Wutai seems like it'll play a big role in the next game and probably give us a reason to revisit some of the older zones that we wouldn't have had a reason to revisit in the original story.
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Mar 17, 2024 06:12
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I'm gonna go back to point out the post I made before which shows the Tifa/Cloud lifestream mind reconstruction scene and what looks like the tear from Rebirth. Again, they aren't in space, so I could buy it's the same thing here. I want think more people are coming around to all of this being the lifestream/purgatory which is kinda what I said before the game was released. I'd be shocked if we don't get Aerith/Zack gameplay in part three as they work to enable holy/the lifestream to do its thing. Aerith literally says to Cloud at the end of the game to take care of Sephiroth and she'll figure out meteor. I'm gonna try to not overthink it too much any more. We're getting the same general ending with more characterization, more Chadley than ever, and maybe some under the hood hijinks so we get a playable Aerith after she dies without it being in the world of the living. Cloud and Tifa bone under the Highwind, Sephiroth is defeated for the time being, and Advent Children still happens. Edit: plus Wutai poo poo per the above.
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Mar 17, 2024 06:17
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Comrade Fakename posted:Anyway, my opinion of the ending: generally bad! My issue isn’t that Aerith should have lived, just that it is ridiculous that they go on that much about defying fate, and the “unknown journey” and then just maintain the same basic status quo as the original game. Turns out fate couldn’t be defied after all! I mean, Jesus, the tagline in the ad was “Those destined for rebirth do not fear the unknown”. Saving Aerith is one obvious way they could have changed things up - and having Cloud finally defy destiny and deflect Sephiroth’s blade only for the game to glitch and actually he killed her after all might be the most bullshit way of maintaining that status quo. But they could have say, had Zack come to the main timeline permanently instead. Or a hundred different things. Instead, Aerith is either dead or effectively dead, Cloud is mentally broken as previously, and the gang is off on the same path as previously. Gonna respectfully disagree. I did read the article, and I read your post, and for all the words that are about how it's not really about Aerith dying they do read, to me, like it's all just cope about Aerith dying. Like, yeah, Remake ended up raising the possibility of defying fate. Rebirth, on the other hand, slams that down and really reminds us that defying fate is hard. It's the ultimate purpose of Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie. Actually, let's forget about Jessie for a minute since she really doesn't come up in any relevant way in Rebirth. Wedge and Biggs do though. In a bigg way, even. Wedge's the simple one, he defied his original fate in Remake only to meet a more grizzly end because of the whispers. To the whispers (and, thus, the original plot), the important thing was that he died. But, because he had that little bit of extra time, he also ended up affecting the members of Avalanche HQ who otherwise wouldn't have ever known he was even a thing. Biggs is the same on a grander scale. His actions that are supposed to give him meaning (like blowing up the reactor or looking to unite a new Avalanche) change nothing. What actually really matters is his interactions with Zack. Don't think it's an accident that it's ultimately the Zack that chose to go to Biggs that dodges the Shinra soldiers and falls down to the void. At the end of the day, they're bit players. But even the smallest stones can make a ripple, and those ripples are what Rebirth's all about. Biggs and Wedge met their fate, but they didn't meet it quite the same and brought about little changes along the way. Same with Aerith. Even with all the foreknowledge the white materia gave her, nothing saved her from her untimely demise. But she did manage to change some things. She gave Cloud the hollow materia. Sephiroth wants him to "fill the hollow heart with rage," but Aerith's now given him another choice. One that'll pay off big in the third game I'd wager. Because Sepiroth can bluster all he likes, right now at the end of Rebirth Cloud's sitting in this rift between the two choices. So, not an accident that he's the only one who can see the big rift in the sky between the two worlds. Cloud's personality at the end of the game might read as his lowest point where he's gone totally loco. But at least right now, I see a little bit of hope within it. Chapter 13 showed what he's like when he's fully influenced by Sepiroth, the end of the game shows a more grounded Cloud who's also influenced by Aerith in the same way. Cloud's still a head case, and the third game will still unravel that. But he's still the queen in this metaphorical chess game between Aerith and Sephiroth, and the hollow materia (his materia) represents exactly where he's at in the grand scheme of things. Aerith wanted to see the "real" Cloud, and that's still not on the table until he unravels all his mental contradictions. Much the same, defying fate's still a possibility. But we're not there yet. As Marelene said, it's not possible while Cloud's still sick. Aerith's death's the most famous scene, but it's not really the most important. It's still Cloud's story, and the big catharsis from both the old and new plot points can't come in until he's done dealing with his poo poo.
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Mar 17, 2024 06:27
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Oxxidation posted:i also think "advent children will be part of canon" is a pretty slippery statement now that it's been confirmed multiple planets/timelines are a thing also they can just keep the money printer going with an enhanced re-re-release of advent children that has brand new poo poo to fit with the remake games, hooray
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Mar 17, 2024 06:31
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At the end of the game I didn't feel much because temple of the ancients sucked as a dungeon and I was sick of it by the time it was over as I just wanted that poo poo done, and then just generally being confused during the whole of 14. But now that I slept for a bit and thought about it I think I like it. And I'm sad. Sinking in that sassy brat Aerith is gone now. Back in the day when I played FF7 I didn't know what was normal for RPGs, I mean I played X, went and played a few of the classics but nothing really sunk in. I somehow got to the North Crater at level 35 and just got hardwalled there by the encounters and just couldn't grind or do anything so I gave up and 'eh nothing about this games plot is doing much for me'. It's weird just how little I cared to the point that if I didn't have my old memory card I wouldn't of thought I even played it. Yet here I am in part 2 of 3 just feeling empty and sad for Aerith despite everything and dying to know what happens next. Like man, she was the key to such light hearted moments that I worry that part 3 will be much more serious than the silly stuff all throughout this game.
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Mar 17, 2024 09:13
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:Like man, she was the key to such light hearted moments that I worry that part 3 will be much more serious than the silly stuff all throughout this game. It's going to be interesting to see how the group dynamics changes going forward. It probably is going to be a bit more serious overall just because we have the first visit to the Northern Crater and Cloud handing over the Black Materia coming up, all the fallout from those actions, as well as the all out war with Wutai, not as many chances for lighthearted moments. That being said, we still have Yuffie, Cait Sith, and teenage Red to lighten the mood(though maybe not so much Yuffie with the conflict in Wutai heating up), and we'll have the full addition of Cid and Vincent. Cid had a few goofy moments already, and Vincent is so overly serious that it wraps around to being funny. So I don't think it's going to be serious mode all the time, at least.
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Mar 17, 2024 12:52
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This is going to feel like a weird 3 games to marathon through for the hypothetical person coming to them fresh 5 years after the 3rd one comes out with the objective of "time to finally play this FF7 I've heard so much about", you kinda go through the onboarding process 3 times, materia/character growth, the weapon upgrade system changes completely between the 1st and 2nd games, folios get added, etc. Then yeah the 3rd game is going to start in quite an odd feeling place, I didn't end up replaying Remake before Rebirth came out, just didn't have the time but I think I will try and replay Rebirth just to try and get back into that headspace for the start of the 3rd one.
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Mar 17, 2024 13:08
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:Yet here I am in part 2 of 3 just feeling empty and sad for Aerith despite everything and dying to know what happens next. Like man, she was the key to such light hearted moments that I worry that part 3 will be much more serious than the silly stuff all throughout this game. Well, Part 3 can't be 100% serious. They still need Palmer to get hit by that truck!
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Mar 17, 2024 13:09
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I replayed through Remake in the week before Rebirth came out (and just about finished, only missed off most of the final boss), and the Nibelheim flashback was actually pretty good at resetting my expectations and playstyle for the new game. Hopefully there's something similar for part 3.
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Mar 17, 2024 13:10
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Well, Part 3 can't be 100% serious. They still need Palmer to get hit by that truck! Gotta open with snowboarding
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Mar 17, 2024 13:18
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Also, Tifa and Scarlet need to get into a slap fight on top of a giant cannon.
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Mar 17, 2024 13:27
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they want shady posted:[Decent post] As you say, defing fate is hard but not impossible and the ending is showing a lot of different universe where a bunch of choices lead to ultimate ends. But it also shows choices that lead to these large events playing out radically different as shown by Cloud saving Aerith in one universe and another where she's okay too. The one where he's yelling at Sephiroth and the one where he's crying (the one we're playing the game in) are ones where he failed to save her - like I mentioned previously the former is the OG. The real wildcard, more so than the Aerith that's still alive, is Zack. I'm very interested in see what he does in the 3rd game as his goals seem to be getting the band back together, so to speak. He wants to ensure everyone lives. I hope so because he was really fun to play as and his synergy stuff with Cloud was baller as heck. Basically, Zack is the Main Character and he's using checkpoint saves to try to get the ideal ending. Jimbot fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Mar 17, 2024 |
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Mar 17, 2024 13:41
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Harrow posted:I'm sorry to disappoint but: https://www.eurogamer.net/final-fantasy-7-remake-trilogy-will-link-with-advent-children-confirms-producer I honestly dislike this, because it means no matter what happens at the end of the third game or however many games they wind up doing, Sephiroth still ends up an angry ghost in the Lifestream, doomed to wander forever, powerless and impotent after Cloud dies and nobody is left to remember him. Like, sure, the man is a total monster now, but its literally not even his fault he's an abomination against nature created by the Most Evil Man Possible. Like, let Sephiroth have a true death man. I'm not even arguing redeeming him, I'm saying that being forced to spend an eternity as a ghost unable to find peace and in constant misery sucks.
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Mar 17, 2024 13:55
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| # ? May 23, 2024 13:36 |
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In the third game Tifa will say “dilly dally shilly sally" and your blood will run cold knowing that your fears are real
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Mar 17, 2024 13:59
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