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GhostofJohnMuir
Aug 14, 2014

anime is not good

according to 15 seconds of googling, trump tower is only 664' and the average height of the new york skyline is 981', so trump didn't change poo poo

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haveblue
Aug 15, 2005



Toilet Rascal

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

according to 15 seconds of googling, trump tower is only 664' and the average height of the new york skyline is 981', so trump didn't change poo poo

I don't think the top is visible from anywhere outside Manhattan, there are too many other tall buildings around

It might have been visible from across the East River before, but now there's a giant billionaire cash parking condo tower there. Lol

azflyboy
Nov 9, 2005

DarkHorse posted:

It really is amazing that everything I feared with a Trump presidency, less a nuclear detonation, ended up happening

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it eventually came out that the only reason Trump didn't either order a nuclear strike or do something to kick off a nuclear exchange was because someone told him "Oh, the missiles are getting an oil change, but we'll nuke Portland tomorrow", knowing full well President Smoothbrains would completely forget about it in 15 minutes.

Blue Footed Booby
Oct 4, 2006

got those happy feet

azflyboy posted:

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it eventually came out that the only reason Trump didn't either order a nuclear strike or do something to kick off a nuclear exchange was because someone told him "Oh, the missiles are getting an oil change, but we'll nuke Portland tomorrow", knowing full well President Smoothbrains would completely forget about it in 15 minutes.

I'd buy that. I remember in one of the 2016 debates--or more specifically in a televised pre debate event--he needed it explained to him multiple times why being the first to use nuclear weapons is a bad idea. Then in the actual debate he got asked something about "first use policy" and clearly didn't recognize the term. It was horrifying.

Eric Cantonese
Dec 21, 2004

You should hear my accent.
I think Trump Tower was pretty influential for 80s architecture, for better or worse. It's definitely a product of its time. Whether it changed the NYC skyline is another thing altogether.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone




I have to say, Trump hoovering up all the fundraising money that would normally go into Republican election campaigns and using it for his own non-election benefits has gone a long way to kneecapping the Republican performance in the last few elections. If he does that and is in jail/prison come the election and that depresses turnout for him (an open question) that it would be doubly bad for the party.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



haveblue posted:

I don't think the top is visible from anywhere outside Manhattan, there are too many other tall buildings around

It might have been visible from across the East River before, but now there's a giant billionaire cash parking condo tower there. Lol

It’s not. Trump Tower is very distinct, in the sense of being an eyesore, but luckily you can’t see it from very far. It’s not even by the park or anything, it basically only is visible right by it.

I do however have to drive by not one but two of his lovely golf courses every time I go to see my doctor. I’d love to see a big For Sale on one of those when I drive down in June.

OgNar
Oct 26, 2002

They tapdance not, neither do they fart
Lara working fast
https://twitter.com/meridithmcgraw/status/1770563361257795936

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.




I can only read that as Jesus loving Christ.

Also is there a way to find out if this can be used for the bond?

Cimber
Feb 3, 2014

Nitrousoxide posted:

I have to say, Trump hoovering up all the fundraising money that would normally go into Republican election campaigns and using it for his own non-election benefits has gone a long way to kneecapping the Republican performance in the last few elections. If he does that and is in jail/prison come the election and that depresses turnout for him (an open question) that it would be doubly bad for the party.

Well, also the loving wackos they have hired in the RNC, such as the QANON dude who's taking over the targeted voter department. His only qualification is he believes in the big steal. Never ran anything like this before.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom vroom, BEEP BEEP!
Nap Ghost

Blue Footed Booby posted:

I'd buy that. I remember in one of the 2016 debates--or more specifically in a televised pre debate event--he needed it explained to him multiple times why being the first to use nuclear weapons is a bad idea. Then in the actual debate he got asked something about "first use policy" and clearly didn't recognize the term. It was horrifying.

Yeah I remember that. People were lampooning him for not knowing what the nuclear triad was and it was just so, so much worse than that

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004

коммунизм хранится в яичках

Randalor posted:

And once again I find myself asking... Trump KNOWS that he's not the president RIGHT NOW, and "just" the political rival. If the Supreme Court does say "A president has full immunity from everything they do in office", there's nothing stopping Biden from ordering Seal Team Six to take out Trump.

He HAS to know that, right?

Do you honestly think he considers the decorum-poisoned Dems a threat? He figures they'd never do a drat thing with it, then he can use it when he gets back in to do All The Crimes.

Uglycat posted:

I get that there's legal precedence that soldiers have a duty to disobey such orders, but is there any precedence of soldiers actually refusing such orders?

Yes. Most soldiers aren't interested in getting themselves thrown in Leavenworth to spend their future making big rocks into little rocks if 'Just Following Orders' doesn't carry at a court martial. Plus they're generally not all that ride or die MAGA.

Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Mar 21, 2024

DeathChicken
Jul 9, 2012

Nonsense. I have not yet begun to defile myself.

I definitely remember the sentiment during Trump's term was "Why is this idiot making us do parades when we could be doing literally anything useful"

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

Xiahou Dun posted:

I can only read that as Jesus loving Christ.

Also is there a way to find out if this can be used for the bond?

This doesn't change anything. It's a convenience thing for big donors, to save them the trouble of writing two separate checks to the Trump campaign and the RNC.

All money donated to that fund has to go to one of two places:
  1. Trump's official election campaign, which is not allowed to spend money on his personal or legal expenses
  2. The RNC, which has already practically bankrupted itself paying GOP candidates' legal expenses

To put things in perspective, the RNC's total cash on hand is less than $9 million. I don't think that'd even cover Trump's attorney's fees at this point, let alone the bond.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone



Yeah. If the RNC has the ability to raise half a billion dollars in less than 5 days they would own every elected position in the country.

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007
As a note, if the judge didn’t allow his ruling to be appealed now, then it could screw the trial later when it gets brought up as part of Trump’s general appeals. Even if it causes delays, it’s always best to give the defendant all the leniency within reason so they can’t get everything thrown out on appeal.

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


Donkringel posted:

List of properties that will/may be seized.

Trump International Hotel and Tower, Las Vegas, Nevada

Would it remain open while it is seized? If it closes, they'd lose a ton of business and loyal customers.

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

according to 15 seconds of googling, trump tower is only 664' and the average height of the new york skyline is 981', so trump didn't change poo poo

Maybe we should be looking into if he helped with 9-11.

Ulf
Jul 15, 2001

FOUR COLORS
ONE LOVE
Nap Ghost

Gucci Loafers posted:

Would it remain open while it is seized? If it closes, they'd lose a ton of business and loyal customers.

It’s a combination condo and hotel, I’m not sure if the hotel would close but I don’t think they’d evict the condo owners or stop accepting rent.

If you’re under the impression that it has a casino, it does not. The gaming board won’t license Trump to run a casino in Vegas.

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


Ulf posted:

It’s a combination condo and hotel, I’m not sure if the hotel would close but I don’t think they’d evict the condo owners or stop accepting rent.

If you’re under the impression that it has a casino, it does not. The gaming board won’t license Trump to run a casino in Vegas.

:lol: I suspect he's tried in the past.

PainterofCrap
Oct 17, 2002

hey bebe



Gucci Loafers posted:

Would it remain open while it is seized? If it closes, they'd lose a ton of business and loyal customers.

They can only seize New York properties, as far as I understand it. That's why the comptroller got super-pissed when the Org tried to transfer five properties to Florida last week.

Vahakyla
May 3, 2013

Uglycat posted:

I get that there's legal precedence that soldiers have a duty to disobey such orders, but is there any precedence of soldiers actually refusing such orders?

Almost an infinite amount. Most common daily one would be aircrew (including drone pilots) refusing to use ordnance when they see civilians or kids.

There’s infantry units choosing to cease the assault, artillery not firing when unclear of collateral, etc. The decisions to not start or to abort the employment of weapons is pretty mundane and in no way news worthy.

Very few units have specific orders to kill anyone. Seals shooting Bin Laden is pretty contested and lawyered and the story isn’t cut and dry. The events and legality of Bin Laden’s killing os still debated, and that’s one of the most black and white ”bad guys” we get.

Besides those specific situations, basically no one in the military operates on any orders that say ”kill this person”.

And it isn’t even clear cut in Bin Laden case. Even if there could be (probably was) a head nod that Bin Laden gets it, no one’s gonna write that down as an official task. Too many people in the chain would be questioning it and the JAG would be screaming red faced.

Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Mar 21, 2024

atriptothebeach
Oct 27, 2020

DarkHorse posted:

It really is amazing that everything I feared with a Trump presidency, less a nuclear detonation, ended up happening

it is infuriating :(

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



atriptothebeach posted:

it is infuriating :(

Really hoping for that nuke, huh?

atriptothebeach
Oct 27, 2020

that fool

e: it is scary

aventari
Mar 20, 2001

I SWIFTLY PENETRATED YOUR MOMS MEAT TACO WHILE AGGRESSIVELY FONDLING THE UNDERSIDE OF YOUR DADS HAIRY BALLSACK, THEN RIPPED HIS SAUSAGE OFF AND RAMMED IT INTO YOUR MOMS TAILPIPE. I JIZZED FURIOUSLY, DEEP IN YOUR MOMS MEATY BURGER WHILE THRUSTING A ANSA MUFFLER UP MY GREASY TAILHOLE
I really think all this hullabaloo about him not being able to come up with the money for the bond is just performative on Trumps end. If the court holds firm on requiring the bond by the deadline and doesn't push back the date (which I think is probable),he will suddenly find the money and post it up at the 11th hour. I'm betting that financial arrangement is already set up with some shady foreign backing.

This whining about not being able to pay accomplishes a few things. 1. Of course it gives him more opportunity to grift his moron followers, 2. It is just more potential delay, delay, delay tactics like everything else they've done. 3. I think getting his enemies' hopes up that *consequences* are actually about to manifest, then pulling the rug out at the last second is demoralizing and he is nothing if not petty. Also a demoralized Democrat base is less likely to vote.

It sucks but I am not expecting any kind of property seizure to start next week. The most likely thing is an extension from the court because rich, powerful people deserve a break. Or he just posts the bond and everything moves on to the next delay tactic and nobody in the mainstream looks where the money came from because the crime pile is just too massive. .

Shammypants
May 25, 2004

Let me tell you about true luxury.

Nothing says electable like a nebulous half a billion dollar bailout from a foreign agent.

InsertPotPun
Apr 16, 2018

Pissy Bitch stan

Kchama posted:

As a note, if the judge didn’t allow his ruling to be appealed now, then it could screw the trial later when it gets brought up as part of Trump’s general appeals. Even if it causes delays, it’s always best to give the defendant all the leniency within reason so they can’t get everything thrown out on appeal.
yeah yeah yeah. literally the same thing that's said every time it's brought up. "you have to let trump win so he'll lose!!"

edit: and alex jones

dr_rat
Jun 4, 2001

aventari posted:

I really think all this hullabaloo about him not being able to come up with the money for the bond is just performative on Trumps end.

It's a poo poo load of money and even successful businesses people with billions would be very unlikely to have that much cash just lying around, even the hire estimates of his wealth put it at like two and a half three billion which this is a percent percentage of, and it's very likely he's worth fair less, and also pretty much all banks don't want to lend to him.

I would of been far more surprised if he could just come up with the money.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



aventari posted:

I really think all this hullabaloo about him not being able to come up with the money for the bond is just performative on Trumps end. If the court holds firm on requiring the bond by the deadline and doesn't push back the date (which I think is probable),he will suddenly find the money and post it up at the 11th hour. I'm betting that financial arrangement is already set up with some shady foreign backing.

This whining about not being able to pay accomplishes a few things. 1. Of course it gives him more opportunity to grift his moron followers, 2. It is just more potential delay, delay, delay tactics like everything else they've done. 3. I think getting his enemies' hopes up that *consequences* are actually about to manifest, then pulling the rug out at the last second is demoralizing and he is nothing if not petty. Also a demoralized Democrat base is less likely to vote.

It sucks but I am not expecting any kind of property seizure to start next week. The most likely thing is an extension from the court because rich, powerful people deserve a break. Or he just posts the bond and everything moves on to the next delay tactic and nobody in the mainstream looks where the money came from because the crime pile is just too massive. .

Remember when this genius schemer’s plan to cover up him hiding literal nuclear secrets in his bathroom was to delegate it two random jamokes — his golf caddie and a nebulously employed Portuguese man. The ones who were caught on camera, pointing at the camera, on the surveillance video they didn’t delete. Who co-ordinated it via emoji.

It’s not that I’m certain there’s going to be The Mattering on Monday — I try to keep a realistic understanding of legal processes and I have the same emotional flinch-response as everyone else after the last several years.

But Donny Boy just ain’t that loving smart, and even if someone told him to he’s too impatient and incompetent to carry it out.

I’m sure there will be fuckery, there always is, but the Donald the Chessmaster canard needs to loving die.

Uglycat
Dec 4, 2000
MORE INDISPUTABLE PROOF I AM BAD AT POSTING
---------------->
If they put one property up for auction, and some Saudi prince bids 600 million, does this all resolve?

Jean-Paul Shartre
Jan 16, 2015

this sentence no verb


InsertPotPun posted:

yeah yeah yeah. literally the same thing that's said every time it's brought up. "you have to let trump win so he'll lose!!"

edit: and alex jones

Except that the judge’s own decision literally says “Georgia law on this point is unclear and there aren’t many decisions about it” regarding the appearance of a conflict as an independent ground to disqualify a prosecutor in the absence of an actual conflict. He openly framed it as “I think this is how this works,” of course he’s going to have the appellate court, who’s job it is to settle these sort of questions, settle this question.

Shooting Blanks
Jun 6, 2007

Real bullets mess up how cool this thing looks.

-Blade



Uglycat posted:

If they put one property up for auction, and some Saudi prince bids 600 million, does this all resolve?

Who is "they" - Trump, or the state of NY?
And what do you mean by resolve - satisfy the judgment, or fulfill his bond requirements for the duration of his appeals?

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007

InsertPotPun posted:

yeah yeah yeah. literally the same thing that's said every time it's brought up. "you have to let trump win so he'll lose!!"

edit: and alex jones

I mean, DO you want him to win? Not going through the motions is, in fact, the easiest way to let him win, and he gets to win AFTER delaying it endlessly, instead of delaying but still losing.

The Question IRL
Jun 8, 2013

Only two contestants left! Here is Doom's chance for revenge...

The Islamic Shock posted:

Trump's pride > Trump's greed > everything else


Let's see.
For Pride, we can put in the desire to say he didn't lose and that someone else is a liar.
For Greed, we can put in Trump's assets.

So Willingness to say that Jean Carroll is a liar and get sued for Defamation again > Trump's assets getting hit with another Civil Forfiture order > everything else (including me laughing.)


Yeah, the math checks out.

atriptothebeach
Oct 27, 2020

Main Paineframe posted:

While I can't actually prove this, I feel extremely confident in saying that no president has ever said to themselves "Hmmm, I could just assassinate my opponent for reelection, but I don't want to be vulnerable to criminal prosecution after my term ends". That is not a thing that actually happens.

Trump's argument is dumb bullshit that will no doubt be slapped down by the court, but that doesn't mean that prosecutors are the one and only thing between us and full-on presidential dictatorship.
-

The consequence Nixon feared was losing the presidency. Faced with the inevitability of losing the presidency, he chose to make his exit on his own terms so that he could immediately start working on rebuilding his reputation.

He covered it[?] up to avoid the revelation of an embarrassing political scandal[?] right in the middle of his reelection campaign. If he hadn't covered it up, then the full impact of the scandal[?] would have broken in fall 1972. Instead, his obstructionism managed to delay the most damaging revelations[?] until well after Election Day...though, in the end, the coverups are what doomed him, since they encouraged deeper investigations that eventually unearthed far more damaging stuff[?] that probably wouldn't have come out otherwise.

If a president is knocking off anyone who looks like a threat to their continuing to hold the presidency, then criminal prosecution is not a meaningful obstacle.

While an Archibald Cox scenario is a possibility, it's not really a threatening one. The Saturday Night Massacre didn't work. While Nixon was able to get Cox fired, the resulting blowback was a fatal blow to Nixon's political standing. Not only was Nixon forced to bring on a new special prosecutor, but the public and Congress had decisively turned against him after that.

Trying to pull something similar about a planned assassination of a political rival would be far more disastrous. No ones ordered rivals assassinated before because if a president orders the military to assassinate his opponent in the election, the military will refuse.

While the military follows the orders of the commander-in-chief, their loyalty is to the Constitution (and thus to the legal role and powers of the presidency as described in the Constitution) rather than to any individual president, and it's unlikely that they're going to be particularly inclined to follow this particular order. If a president ordered a SEAL team to assassinate a US politician, the team refused, and the president followed it up by firing or even court-martialing the team in question, it's just about guaranteed that the matter would leak in great detail to drat near everyone.

And the first rule of "assassinate your political rivals" club is that you make sure your political rival's party never gets ironclad evidence of specific assassination plans directly and unambiguously ordered by the president...

You feel extremely confident that neither Donald Trump nor Richard Nixon have ever even considered "I could just assassinate my opponent for reelection, but I don't want to be vulnerable to criminal prosecution"?

Okay, let's examine President Nixon in this light and assess a Nixon-ordered break-in, cover-up and tape deletion in May of 1972, when Nixon's opponent for reelection was shot: Richard Nixon is a murderer who conspired to assassinate a competing presidential candidate.

An engraving on the Robert F. Kennedy Main Justice Building, which houses the office of the Attorney General of the United States, posted:

NO FREE GOVERNMENT CAN SURVIVE THAT IS NOT BASED ON THE SUPREMACY OF LAW

Nixon feared the consequences from the sins that he had committed coming to light; he traded the Presidency for a full pardon given by his Vice-President following the headline-catching revelation that he had wiped 18 minutes from a White House audiotape after a foiled break-in at the Democratic Party national headquarters in June of 1972.

Long before 1972 Nixon's choices had already directly, knowingly and sinfully led to the deaths of thousands of innocent people for mere boosts in polls; starting from efforts to sabotage peace talks to win the 1968 elections he only became more cruel once President, with more than a million additional preventable killings being done due to his knowing choices. His political madness and bloodshed was never like an abstract thing constrained to overseas, amongst a wave of political assassinations he repeatedly called American society to violence, and he used as many tools available to him as possible to personally strike against his political enemies.

Richard Nixon, President of the United States, posted:

When the President does it, that means that it is not illegal.

When a black-bag job is undertaken because of an expressed policy decided by the President in the interests of domestic tranquility, then means which would otherwise be technically illegal does not subject those who engage in such activity to criminal prosecution. The President’s decision is one that enables those who carry it out to carry it out without violating a law. That’s the way I would put it.

Senator Daniel Inouye - Hearings Before the Senate Select Committee on Richard Nixon's Presidential Campaign Activities, posted:

Mr. Dean, I would like now to refer to a memo dated August 16, 1971, and you have testified that this was prepared for Mr. Haldeman, Mr. Ehrlichman, and others at the White House. It is classified "Confidential."

Subject: "Dealing With Our Political Enemies."

I would like to read part of this:


In your testimony you have submitted several exhibits with lists of names - politicos, Members of Congress, members of the media, and members of the entertainment field, et cetera, et cetera, taking this memo together with that list

Now, in addition to that, you testified that on one of your meetings with President Nixon, you quoted the President as saying, "We will take care of them after the election," when the President referred to enemy newsmen.

[John Dean, White House counsel: "They kept sending their political enemies suggestions to me. There was some talk about individuals who might handle this; I can't recall their names."]
CBS Newsman Daniel Schorr stated that inclusion on the list was his greatest accomplishment. When Nixon's enemy lists were first discovered Schorr read the names out live on national news, not realizing that he was on the list until he came to his own name.

Howard Hunt, on joining the Nixon administration, posted:

I got a call from Chuck Colson. He was now working for the administration as a political advisor. He told me the White House was setting up a Special Investigations Unit (SIU). Nixon wanted people shut down by any means necessary.

I didn’t think twice about it. I said yes immediately.

Liddy was this ex-FBI guy who was running the SIU. I mean, on paper you couldn’t fault him. Loyal, fanatical even. There was literally nothing this man wouldn’t do. You could’ve asked him to go home and assassinate his wife and kids, and if you told him the order had come from the President himself, he’d have done it.

Gordon was ready to assassinate Ellsberg after leaking The Pentagon Papers. He thought that’s what our mission was, initially. Honestly, if I hadn’t set him straight, he probably would have done it. Liddy was the kind of guy who would interpret insinuation, just a nod even, as a direct order.

Colson and I had already discussed having another enemy assassinated, he thought I’d be the right person to do it with my CIA background. I mentioned it to Liddy, and Liddy proposed he just stab him to death.
-

[Senator Herman Talmadge - Senate Hearing on Richard Nixon's Presidential Activities: "I am impressed with your background. Why on earth, after a record of that type, would you go and commit series of felonies?"]

I would have to answer, Senator Talmadge, that I became engaged because I believed that the activities that were proposed to me had the sanction of the highest authorities in our country.

My 26-year record of service to this country predisposed me to accept orders and instructions without question and without debate.

President Richard Nixon, speaking about an enemy, posted:

[In reply to John Mitchell, who's wife was kidnapped, beaten, drugged and had her life held hostage by Nixon's aides a few weeks after his statement: "I would just like to get a hold of this guy and kill him"]

God drat it, yes. We’ve got to do something with this son of a bitch.
-

[Speaking to Special Counselor Colson]
We need to get rid of this guy.

The SIU, with offices adjoining the Presidential suites in the Executive Office Building next door to the White House, was right on it: "This son of a bitch has become a great thorn in the side of the president. Stop him at all costs."

G. Gordon Liddy - Nixon aide, FBI agent and ghostwriter for FBI Director Hoover, posted:

[Regarding Nixon's order]
We examined all the alternatives and very quickly came to the conclusion the only way you're going to be able to stop him is to kill him, and that was the recommendation.
-

[Describing the SIU to the Attorney General of the United States, John Mitchell]
Killers who have accounted for 22 dead so far, including two hanged from a beam in a garage.
-

[To White House counsel after a break-in became known]
This is my fault. If somebody wants to shoot me on a street corner, I'm prepared to have that done.
-

I feel I might well receive instructions to kill E. Howard Hunt — I am prepared, should I receive those orders, to carry them out immediately.

White House and agency workers met in March, 1972, to work through plans for the assassination, including poisoned medicine(obtained from a CIA physician) and staging a fatal mugging.
-

On April 13'th, 1972, a man in a business suit mingled with people during his second appearance at a Nixon campaign event. While there he would finalize his decision: he would assassinate Governor George Wallace, a candidate competing against Nixon for President. The man spent the next few weeks studying and planning: he checked out two books from the public library in Milwaukee, both detailing the assassination of Senator Robert F. Kennedy during 1968's presidential election.

About 1,000 people were present at Governor Wallace's May 15th, 1972, rally in Laurel, Maryland, they were mostly quiet and it was generally a peaceful crowd. Wallace, who had won 46 electoral votes in the 1968 presidential election, was doing much better than he had in his earlier third party run - he was winning primary elections in Northern states.

After he had finished speaking, Wallace shook hands with some of those present, against the advice of his Secret Service guards.

The man called out to Wallace, pushed his way through the crowd, aimed a revolver, and opened fire, emptying the weapon.

Wallace was hit four times and fell back, one bullet lodged in his spinal cord. Three other people present were also hurt: an Alabama State Trooper, Wallace's personal bodyguard, who was shot in the stomach; a campaign volunteer, who was shot in the leg; and a Secret Service agent, who was shot in the neck.

In the shooter's car a short diary would eventually be found. Covering just the last few weeks, the diary invoked Democratic causes for the shooting. In the New York Review of Books, Gore Vidal wrote that E. Howard Hunt — a thriller writer himself — likely created the diary. (I wonder what a comparison AI would think between it and similar Hunt novels.)

When Nixon learned the FBI made copies of the diary available to Secret Service investigators, he ordered FBI Director Gray not only to destroy all records indicating that the White House had seen the recovered diary but to issue a directive that "no one is allowed access to the subject, even lawyers."

Director Gray became furious when the manuscript was sent to Newsweek, at a time when only the FBI and the White House had copies.

The 1972 presidential election produced an abnormally high Republican vote and abnormally low Democratic vote as racist southern voters switched to Nixon en-masse after Wallace finally dropped out; Nixon depended on his intentionally racist 'Southern Strategy,' which was ineffective against the openly monstrous Alabama governor. Democrats won ~40% of the nation's vote after a forged letter prepared by Nixon's team caused the Democratic favorite, Senator Edmund Muskie, to drop from the election in confused disgrace.

Gallup polls showed a 20-1 Nixon-McGovern split in Wallace voters, Wallace was attracting ~20% of the vote when he was shot. Governor Wallace had won just 10 million voters in 1968 as a less popular third party candidate who had almost spoiled Nixon's initial win(Nixon in 1968: +~500,000 votes, +~0.5%); in 1972 Wallace was much more popular and winning elections in northern states, as an energized third party candidate(especially with Senator Muskie remaining as the Democratic candidate) he would have split the vote in favor of a Democrat: Wallace must be stopped "by any means necessary."

President Richard Nixon posted:

[To Cornelia Wallace, moments after her husband was shot]
You tell him that all of us people in politics have got to expect some dangers.

["I think he's gonna be right, he'll probably be out there running against you."]
-

[To Chuck Colson, an hour later]
Well, you should've finished the job.

All The Presidents Men posted:

Back in 1972, before the first Watergate trial, Howard Simons had summoned some of the Washington Post editors into his office. "You know, there’s one thing we’ve got to think about," he said. "The ultimate dirty trick."

Bernstein and Woodward had mentioned it to each other more than once. They had received a tip that one of the Watergate suspects had previously gone to Milwaukee to meet with Arthur Bremer, the assassin.

Informed of the shooting of Wallace, Colson told Woodward, the President voiced immediate concern about ties the assassin might have to the President’s re-election committee. If that were the case, Colson noted, it could cost the President the election.

Woodward was talking about Howard Hunt with a Senate attorney who felt that Hunt held a key to still more undercover work. Hunt had been brought to Capitol Hill from jail for long interviews and had disclosed an instruction from the White House.

About an hour after Alabama Governor Wallace was shot Hunt received an instruction from Colson:
'Fly to Milwaukee immediately and break into Arthur Bremer’s apartment.'

Two reporters for Milwaukee papers had told Woodward that they had gone into Bremer’s apartment after FBI agents had been there once and left. A few other people had also been inside and had carried off papers and other effects. An hour and a half later, federal agents came back and sealed off the apartment.

The FBI has never offered any explanation as to why they had permitted Bremer’s belongings, including his personal notebooks, to be looted.

Nixon and White House staff followed the Wallace shooting very closely. A cabinet was formed in the Oval Office to react, before a long session in Nixon's private office of the Executive Office Building in which Nixon and his advisors discussed the political effects of the shooting and how the investigation will be managed. "We have got to get a hold of this thing. You understand the record is being made now."

In 1971, Secret Service technicians and White House staff installed voice-activated microphones throughout the President's workspaces: within the surface of the President’s desk, in lights by mantels, etc. In his own memoirs, Nixon wrote that he believed existence of the tapes would never be publicly revealed; more than 3,000 hours of audio have been made available for public listening online at https://nixontapes.org/wallace.html.

"If I had thought that on those tapes there was conversation that was criminal, I sure as the Dickens would’ve destroyed them."
//
"I don't want to have in the record discussions we've had in this room. Pull out the tapes you want and get rid of the rest of it. Most of it is worth destroying."

There are wild Nixon audiotapes from the Executive Office Building during that night, one specific conversation is on May 15th and begins around 8pm, soon after the shooting. This is like just barely a month before the botched Watergate break-in and the 18-minute long deleted conversation occurs.

Nixon insistently ordered Chuck Colson, who worked to compile enemy lists and had proposed firebombing the Brookings Institution, to tell the press that the shooter was a Democrat, "I can tell you he was a supporter- Just say that he was a supporter of McGovern and Kennedy. Now just put that out. Just say that you have it on unmistakable evidence. Just say we have an authenticated report. Tell your man that this is a hot tip, give it to someone that's a friend."

Nixon ordered the FBI to take jurisdiction of the investigation away from the Secret Service, and for the 50 Secret Service agents to stand down and not investigate the assassination attempt: "Secret Service will gently caress this up!"

Nixon ordered John Ehrlichman, the White House counsel who initially set up Nixon's secret operations unit and who also helped budget another $100 million kidnap/assassination program the year before, to take control of the investigations, and to gain control over the assassin: "God drat it, be sure that the FBI gets there before he is interviewed, that's all I ask." ["I think that would be impossible, Mr. President."] "You don't consider this a federal offense? Establish it and get him out of there right away."

Nixon and Colson talk about the assassin: Howard Hunt, who helped plan the Bay of Pigs invasion and the CIA's coup of Guatemala, is given an order to break into the assassin's home, before the FBI would be allowed to search it, explicitly to clear it of anything incriminating and to throw investigators, and the nation, on a trail: "I just wish that, God, that I'd thought sooner about planting literature. I mean, if they found it near his apartment, that would be helpful. - He is going to be a left-winger by the time we are through with him."

Nixon bemoaned Hoovers recent death, at how much more difficult everything is without such an FBI director so much on his side. "You got Pat Gray, he will be an accomplice. Use him, and use Colson’s outfit — you know, to sneak out things. I mean, you do anything. I mean, anything!"

Richard Nixon posted:

[As Vice-President in his Senate office, March 12th, 1954]
I'd love to slip a secret recording gadget in the President's office, to capture some of those warm, offhand, great-hearted things the man says, play 'em back, then get them press-released.
-

[As President in his Executive office, a moment before the tape is wiped]
Screw the record.

People in the executive office wait for more news to come in as time passes. There is morbid talk of getting shot and mad talk of what kind of leftist to best put immediate public blame on; frantic, stilted or hushed conversations occasionally make things on the tape difficult to understand.

In the recording Nixon seems agitated and possibly drinking, and people in the room make apprehensions to watching what they say.

White House Chief of Staff H.R. "Bob" Haldeman does not like this: they cannot talk because of what the record system could catch right now. He attempts to disable the recording system but is stopped by the President, who wants him to leave the tapes alone: "Bob, you're dead."

Starting at about 8 minutes in they speak about something clear and incriminating and worth covering up. Nixon changes his mind about ignoring the taping system and, as discussed, this part of this White House tape has been wiped over. This does not seem to have been done multiple times, it seems like a simple and quick once over done on the spot. If the physical tapes still exist and retain any magnetic condition I'd like to see an attempted reconstruction of this conversation.

After a few minutes of tape time the audio is resumed, I could be imagining but the tone of the speech seems different, as though the previous few minutes(how many real minutes have really elapsed? It seems they go back to wipe just a few minutes of conversation, but time elapses while the audio device is being managed as well) settled things a bit in the room.

The moment immediately following an attempted murder, a political assassination, is not a time to get rid of evidence and destroy records, unless...

Running for President against Nixon is incredibly dangerous, favorites were shot in 1968 and 1972, and Nixon was who named Gerald Ford onto the Warren commission, the Senate investigation into President John F. Kennedy's assassination (Nixon was still an informal leader of the party in 1963/1964, Senators wanted someone accepted by the Republicans on the commission and came to Nixon for his recommendation, of Ford).

In the investigation following President Kennedy's 1963 death Nixon had outright lied to the FBI agents collecting information, stating he was not in Dallas that day, nor was he there the day before; he actually flew out of the city like 3 hours before the shooting, after being there for a few days. When considering such a direct lie to the FBI, things like 'Jack Ruby working for Congressman Nixon and the House Un-American Activities Committee' start to look incriminating concerning the events surrounding JFK's murder; a really deep dive into Nixon's doings here is a perspective that I feel is interesting, his direct lie to the FBI/Senate on even being in the city where the President's murder occurred was a very very bad thing to do.

President Richard Nixon posted:

I didn't think of it as a cover-up. I didn't intend it to cover up. Let me say, if I intended to cover up, believe me, I'd've done it. You know how I could've done it? So easily. I could have done it immediately by giving clemency to everybody.

Breach of Faith: The Fall of Richard Nixon posted:

Of all the political myths out of which the American Republic was born, none was more hopeful than the crowning myth of the Presidency - That the people, in their shared wisdom, would be able to choose the best to lead them. From this came a derivative myth: that the Presidency, the Supreme office, would ennoble any who held its responsibility.

In a time of crisis 2,000 years ago, when a Republic was dying and decades of turbulence had caused its citizens to question their institutions, the last great plea for political civility came from a man who had been Consul to the Republic a decade before, Marcus Tullius Cicero.

Cicero, who had organized sudden murders of political enemies while in power, was urging a renewal of Faith and peace in the Republic as he aged: "I fought for the Republic when I was young, and I shall not abandon her in my old age. I can only exhort you to look on Friendship as the most valuable of all human possessions. A commonwealth is the possession of the People, assemblages of citizens associated in an agreement with respect to justice and partnership for common good." He would, himself, given the title of Pater Patriae (Father of the Country), be Proscribed as an Enemy of the State by the Consul and consequently beheaded in the same sort of madness he had participated in years earlier.

Vindictiveness, passion and murder ruled Rome; the People stood apart from assassination and execution alike because they no longer knew what to believe, and recognized that their leaders believed nothing. By then the Republic was dead, the myths of law that had bound in the beginning had been stripped of meaning, reduced to decorations carved on marbled walls of Empire and palaces of tyrants.

Richard Nixon left a nation on the 200th anniversary of its glorious Independence with a President and a Vice-President who had neither been chosen by the People. The Faith was shattered; and, being shattered, it left American politics more confused than since the Civil War.

President Gerald Ford's first national address upon taking the Oath of Office posted:

The oath that I have taken is the same oath that was taken by George Washington and by every President under the Constitution, but I assume the Presidency under extraordinary circumstances. This is an hour of history that troubles our minds and hurts our hearts.

I feel it is my first duty to make an unprecedented compact with my countrymen. Not an inaugural address, not a fireside chat, not a campaign speech - just a little straight talk among friends.

My fellow Americans, our long national nightmare is over.

Our Constitution works; our great Republic is a government of laws and not of men. Here the People rule. But there is a higher Power, by whatever name we honor Him, who ordains not only righteousness but love, not only justice but mercy.

I am acutely aware that you have not elected me as your President by your ballots, and so I ask you to confirm me as your President with your prayers.

If you have not chosen me by secret ballot, neither have I gained office by any secret promises. I have not campaigned either for the Presidency or the Vice Presidency. I have not subscribed to any partisan platform. I am indebted to no man, and only to one woman - my dear wife - as I begin this very difficult job.

I believe that truth is the glue that holds Government together, not only our government but Civilization itself. That bond, though strained, is unbroken at home and abroad. In all my public and private acts as your President, I expect to follow my instincts of openness and candor with full confidence that honesty is always the best policy in the end.

To the peoples and the governments of the whole world, I pledge an uninterrupted and sincere search for peace. America will remain strong and united, but its strength will remain dedicated to the safety and sanity of the entire family of man, as well as to our own precious freedom.

I intend to request of the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate the privilege of appearing before the Congress to share with my former colleagues and with you, the American people, my views on the priority business of the Nation and to solicit your views and their views. And may I say to the Speaker and the others, if I could meet with you right after these remarks, I would appreciate it.

Even though this is late in an election year, there is no way we can go forward except together and no way anybody can win except by serving the people's urgent needs. We cannot stand still or slip backwards. We must go forward now, together.

With all the strength and all the good sense I have gained from life, with all the confidence my family, my friends, and my dedicated staff impart to me, and with the good will of countless Americans I have encountered in recent visits to 40 States, I now solemnly reaffirm my promise I made to you last December: to uphold the Constitution, to do what is right as God gives me to see the right, and to do the very best I can for America.

God helping me, I will not let you down.

President Gerald Ford privately justified his "full, free and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, may have committed" by carrying in his wallet a portion of the text of 'Burdick v. United States,' a 1915 Supreme Court decision which states that a pardon carries an imputation of guilt, and that acceptance carries a confession of guilt.

"I suppose we can't call that justice, can we?"

atriptothebeach fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Apr 14, 2024

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009

https://twitter.com/sollenbergerrc/status/1770648988644983277



Thank you President Trump, sir, for pissing away millions of dollars that the RNC badly needs on your eternal pursuit of the Holy Jail.

dr_rat
Jun 4, 2001

Tesseraction posted:

Thank you President Trump, sir, for pissing away millions of dollars that the RNC badly needs on your eternal pursuit of the Holy Jail.

I think a lot of trumps legal troubles could be solved if he just doubled his legal team. You know start spending real money on getting all the comically inept lawyers he can find.

The RNC doesn't need any money, they'll just waste it anyway.

mutata
Mar 1, 2003

My industry's had a bad couple of years. I wish we had a similar figure to hire is all and pay us all to keep us well, no matter how bad we are at our jobs. True altruism.

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Shooting Blanks
Jun 6, 2007

Real bullets mess up how cool this thing looks.

-Blade



mutata posted:

My industry's had a bad couple of years. I wish we had a similar figure to hire is all and pay us all to keep us well, no matter how bad we are at our jobs. True altruism.

Except you have to drink the Flavor Aid to get on that money train.

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