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Eight-Six posted:I do like how 'bolt the stack' feels on the brain That's clearly a spell that costs U
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Mar 21, 2024 16:46
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HootTheOwl posted:Letting Lightning Bolt counter any spell cmc 3 or less, while also being able to kill creatures and players would put it in the power nine and be banned in every format. I assumed it would be a new card or cards that specifically allows that effect rather than a game breaking rules change. Stack'ic Shock RRR Instant Deal 2 damage to target creature or Burn target spell, if Burn >= target spell CMC counter-exile that spell. Khanstant fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Mar 21, 2024 |
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Mar 21, 2024 16:54
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Sounds like you want Ionize to cost 1 less and be Or instead of And.
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Mar 21, 2024 16:58
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Naw, the fun is burning the spell on the stack like it's uncoelseced energy being destroyed by fire magic before it can turn into anything. Simply countering is too blue. Another variant could be just melting creature spells on the stack so they enter with -1/-1 counters equal to the damage done to that creature on the stack. Sometimes they just die on ETB making it just a wonky burn spell but other times it turns a major threat into a manageable problem. You can also sort of pre-damage Phyrexian Obliterator in a way that doesn't penalize you and might make the permanents sacrifice to destroy the rest of it manageable as well.
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Mar 21, 2024 17:05
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That wouldn't stop their etb effects though
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Mar 21, 2024 17:24
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They just printed Doorkeeper Thrull, I think more things like that would be better at stopping etbs than roundabout red burn counterspells (?)
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Mar 21, 2024 17:51
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:They just printed Doorkeeper Thrull, I think more things like that would be better at stopping etbs than roundabout red burn counterspells (?) The idea is to let another color deal with ETBs other than blue. White kind of can, but only with cards that kinda suck otherwise, except for elesh norn. Every color gets ETBs so it feels like each color should have a way of dealing with them. This wasn't a problem when you were paying 5 mana for a 2/2 and a sorcery from your graveyard, or 4 mana for a 2/2 flyer that kills an enchantment. Nekrataal was kind of an outlier though. Kinda like how every color gets creatures, and also removal.
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Mar 21, 2024 18:01
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Aether Burn 1RR Instant Split second Counter target activated or triggered ability. If an ability of a creature or planeswalker is countered this way, Aether Burn deals 3 damage to that creature or planeswalker.
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Mar 21, 2024 18:20
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Static feedback: 1R Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 3. If they don't, static feedback deals 3 damage to any target chosen by that spell's controller.
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Mar 21, 2024 18:31
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Mae posted:Static feedback: So you give them a bolt in exchange for their spell? That's a weiiiiiird one I like it lol
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Mar 21, 2024 18:36
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nvm
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Mar 21, 2024 18:37
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That one is really fun and feels very red. Take my bolt just no shelly
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Mar 21, 2024 18:41
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Khanstant posted:Someone suggested earlier the ability to use some kind of burn spell directly on a spell on the stack and it fizzles if you deal CMC damage or more. I like that thematically for red. For red it would probably have to be some sort of punisher effect, like: Red Syncopate XR Instant "Choose a spell with mana value X or less. That spells controller may have Red Syncopate deal X damage to him or her. If they don't, counter that spell and exile it instead of putting it into a graveyard." Alternatively you could do the same thing but more conditional or color focused, just "counter target blue or white spell unless that spells controller takes 4 damage".
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Mar 21, 2024 18:42
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Yeah that wording is better and gets the vibe across. Narrow color feels like something they avoid these days but white has so many tools to shut a red deck down that I'd consider running some anti board wipe miracle. Leaving mana up on the red decks I play is usually a sign of a bad hand though so probably would be a new archetype to take advantage of the hypothetical stack-burn-counters.
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Mar 21, 2024 18:50
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the only reason people are even talking about etbs as an issue is because of power creep. used to be a creature that replaced itself would be under-rate in terms of p/t, or come with a downside. there was a deck building cost or tempo cost associated with them. with f.i.r.e. design and now play boosters, games are much faster and interaction is so efficient that everything has to generate value to be viable—even commons, in order to keep up with the increased number of rares in limited. etbs happen to be the easiest way to facilitate value for a creature. giving red counterspells is a solution, but it's not the solution, and I'm not even convinced it's a solution that's healthy for the game.
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Mar 21, 2024 18:55
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kalel posted:giving red counterspells is a solution, but it's not the solution, and I'm not even convinced it's a solution that's healthy for the game. Tbh it probably isn't. But the crazy etb value thing has been ramping up as a problem for ages
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Mar 21, 2024 18:57
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idk, I think it's good that it's worth playing creatures these days and a lot of why they're playable is they have some sort of immediate impact and don't have to survive a turn cycle to do anything
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Mar 21, 2024 19:00
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fadam posted:What's the internal game logic behind why Fight doesn't use Last Known Information (so fizzles if one of the targets gets removed), but stuff like FTK does? Not in terms of balance or anything, but like...based on the underlying rules engine why don't they work the same way? It's an interaction we've all had to deal with a billion times, but I just realized I can't come up with a good explanation for why other than "it just does." The reason they don't work the same way in the underlying rules engine is that the comprehensive rules section defining Fight includes a clause (701.12b) that says nothing happens unless they're both still alive and haven't stopped being legal targets. Without that clause (i.e. based solely on what the reminder text for Fight says), dead creatures would be able to still fight.
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Mar 21, 2024 19:59
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Creatures are cool cuz they, like, have rules. A body on the board can interact with your opponent's stuff, even if its abilities aren't relevant. When your opponent does something and the only way to stop them is having a card with a specific set of words on it, that kinda sucks. It'd be cool if other card types had universal ways to interact like creatures do, but that's probably too big a change to try and bolt on to the existing systems. When's Magic 2?
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Mar 21, 2024 20:04
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These red counterspells are just telling me we need another reprint of Browbeat to remind people why casting cards that let your opponent choose the outcome are usually pretty bad
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Mar 21, 2024 20:10
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There's already a punisher red counterspell and nobody remembers it because it's not very good There's also a couple of blue-hate red counterspells 
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Mar 21, 2024 20:15
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4 damage is nothin, make it 8.
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Mar 21, 2024 20:31
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Would it be so bad if they just started printing a bunch of creatures that actually do get answered by doom blade? After all, sometimes your opponent just doesn't have it. Make people play Standard with creatures that aren't inherently positive card advantage. Like I get that players like it when you play your card and get value from it immediately. It sucks when your stuff dies. But it also sucks when your opponents do that too. And when both players do it, it bogs the game down, it makes it hard for 1 player to get an advantage and end the game, and every deck becomes midrange value piles
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Mar 21, 2024 20:36
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Lottery of Babylon posted:The reason they don't work the same way in the underlying rules engine is that the comprehensive rules section defining Fight includes a clause (701.12b) that says nothing happens unless they're both still alive and haven't stopped being legal targets. Without that clause (i.e. based solely on what the reminder text for Fight says), dead creatures would be able to still fight. Interesting, thanks!
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Mar 21, 2024 20:40
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Khanstant posted:4 damage is nothin, make it 8. 3 damage for each player in the game.
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Mar 21, 2024 20:41
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A Moose posted:Would it be so bad if they just started printing a bunch of creatures that actually do get answered by doom blade? After all, sometimes your opponent just doesn't have it. Make people play Standard with creatures that aren't inherently positive card advantage. I generally agree with you on this, but I think the ship has sailed. Certainly it's dead permanently in anything bigger than standard because I think it would be pretty hard to print a creature that doesn't generate immediate value but is still playable without getting into ragavan levels of abilities on them? I suppose you could just make cheap, huge tramplers or something but then it's kind of rough in a different way. I guess it's sort of a consequence of there being just so much good, general purpose removal all over the place now
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Mar 21, 2024 20:44
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Tiger Millionaire posted:These red counterspells are just telling me we need another reprint of Browbeat to remind people why casting cards that let your opponent choose the outcome are usually pretty bad Hey don't besmirch the good name of Risk Factor which saw some very minor constructed play. Lottery of Babylon posted:There's already a punisher red counterspell and nobody remembers it because it's not very good Molten Influence could do some work, they should reprint that. Or make a new version that isn't limited to instants and sorceries.
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Mar 21, 2024 20:53
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Weird Pumpkin posted:I generally agree with you on this, but I think the ship has sailed. Certainly it's dead permanently in anything bigger than standard because I think it would be pretty hard to print a creature that doesn't generate immediate value but is still playable without getting into ragavan levels of abilities on them? Now that we don't need Standard to drip feed cards into modern, they can print whatever and set the power level for standard however they want, anything too spicy can just go in the next modern horizons set. Of course there probably will still be broken poo poo in standard by accident though.
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Mar 21, 2024 20:58
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Honestly would be cooler if they were free to "break" standard and drafts and set a temporary power level experiment without the oldies formats mad the cards are OP or busted in their meta. It's weird playing a brand new set that has all these hidden chains on it for concerns for formats that aren't standard and draft. I wouldn't hate an acorn symbol but for standard&draft only cards.
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Mar 21, 2024 21:07
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Khanstant posted:Honestly would be cooler if they were free to "break" standard and drafts and set a temporary power level experiment without the oldies formats mad the cards are OP or busted in their meta. It's weird playing a brand new set that has all these hidden chains on it for concerns for formats that aren't standard and draft. I wouldn't hate an acorn symbol but for standard&draft only cards. i feel like a card that's too busted for extended formats is also not going to be a healthy one for standard in most cases
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Mar 21, 2024 21:10
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A Moose posted:Would it be so bad if they just started printing a bunch of creatures that actually do get answered by doom blade? After all, sometimes your opponent just doesn't have it. Make people play Standard with creatures that aren't inherently positive card advantage. They have though; look at JED's Esper Legends deck that won worlds last year - 29 creatures, with two copies of Ertai the only ETBs.
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Mar 21, 2024 21:11
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Khanstant posted:Honestly would be cooler if they were free to "break" standard and drafts and set a temporary power level experiment without the oldies formats mad the cards are OP or busted in their meta. It's weird playing a brand new set that has all these hidden chains on it for concerns for formats that aren't standard and draft. I wouldn't hate an acorn symbol but for standard&draft only cards. to go further, I think not every set should have a pushed rare that makes it into Standard. They should focus more on making good draft sets, and if something is good enough to make it in constructed, that's fine, but they shouldn't be making cards specifically for constructed. Standard is really only there so you can play stuff you draft anyway.
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Mar 21, 2024 21:27
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A Moose posted:to go further, I think not every set should have a pushed rare that makes it into Standard. They should focus more on making good draft sets, and if something is good enough to make it in constructed, that's fine, but they shouldn't be making cards specifically for constructed. Standard is really only there so you can play stuff you draft anyway. counterpoint: people like it when their cards work together instead of just being generically good
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Mar 21, 2024 21:30
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flatluigi posted:i feel like a card that's too busted for extended formats is also not going to be a healthy one for standard in most cases A card, totally. I mean an entire set of cards, none of which those formats would be okay with because they are absolutely designed to work with others in their set and nothing else. A draft only/stan set could be a highly experimental format, they could go hog wild with extreme designs than can only work with those other designs, making a new game out of the same rules. The real issue here is they are not going to make a product that expressly goes directly into the trash once you played with it, their whole suggestion is antithetical to their model.
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Mar 21, 2024 22:00
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Khanstant posted:A card, totally. I mean an entire set of cards, none of which those formats would be okay with because they are absolutely designed to work with others in their set and nothing else. A draft only/stan set could be a highly experimental format, they could go hog wild with extreme designs than can only work with those other designs, making a new game out of the same rules. This, to some extent, already happens: there are plenty of draft archetypes that already lack support from surrounding sets. Occasionally these are strong enough or fun enough to make some impact on the meta (selesnya toxic and the jeskai cycling deck from Ikoria come to mind), but it's not very often.
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Mar 21, 2024 22:04
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Khanstant posted:A card, totally. I mean an entire set of cards, none of which those formats would be okay with because they are absolutely designed to work with others in their set and nothing else. A draft only/stan set could be a highly experimental format, they could go hog wild with extreme designs than can only work with those other designs, making a new game out of the same rules. So rather than a MtG set, it would be some sort of "un"set?
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Mar 21, 2024 22:04
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flatluigi posted:counterpoint: people like it when their cards work together instead of just being generically good flatluigi posted:idk, I think it's good that it's worth playing creatures these days and a lot of why they're playable is they have some sort of immediate impact and don't have to survive a turn cycle to do anything I feel like these are mutually exclusive. either you make a + b cards or the cards provide value on their own
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Mar 21, 2024 22:06
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mossyfisk posted:So rather than a MtG set, it would be some sort of "un"set? they could even do it in digital. but it would require the app team to perform some kind of strange game design... alchemy
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Mar 21, 2024 22:08
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Tiger Millionaire posted:These red counterspells are just telling me we need another reprint of Browbeat to remind people why casting cards that let your opponent choose the outcome are usually pretty bad The easiest way to do the red counterspell thing would probably be just creating another official term. Call it "Interference" or "Flux" or whatever. And define it effectively as damage on the stack such that should a spell receive interference >= its MV while on the stack, it is countered. And interference clears once the spell leaves the stack. Or you can just limit it to just creature spells and have the threshold be the toughness value.
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Mar 21, 2024 23:11
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"I spend 6 mana to cast Farewell" I spend 2 mana to zap you in the nuts twice with Lightning Bolt, breaking your concentration
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Mar 21, 2024 23:26
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