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I was sort of baffled by FATE Aspects when I read the 1e rules, because the main example they gave of an Aspect was Porthos being strong. And I was thinking, why do we need Aspects for that when we already have skills? I think the FATE writers realized this too, because modern FATE has a skill for feats of strength (Physique). Though Strong as an Aspect would actually make sense for a character like Hercules, who's really strong and sometimes has problems as a result of being too strong. This is separate from the homogeneity issue under discussion, of course. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Mar 21, 2024 |
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Mar 21, 2024 14:51
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Here's what I like about Aspects: for years, I never had any hope to actually play an "unusual" character in a roleplaying game, especially most sci-fi games. Because if you want to play, say, a lizardman, then there has to be an entire page of rules about how you suffer a penalty in cold environments, and you have lizard claws and teeth that are treated like a valuable advantage even though they do slightly more damage than a punch and less damage than a knife, and a pile of more tedious stupid bullshit that just dissuades you from playing anything but a human guy with a sword or a gun. And then Fate comes out and you can just have the Aspect "Lizard Person" and pay a Metagame Currency Point to get +2 to do lizardy things and get a point when you suffer -2 to do lizard-unfriendly things, and those sci-fi games from the 80s can go gently caress themselves. Here's what I don't like about Aspects: In the Fate community there seemed to be a trend where Aspects have to be clever. Being a Lizard Person isn't good enough, at least half your Aspects need to be some evocative motto like The Captain Goes Down With The Ship or By This Axe I Rule or The Key To Success Is Sincerity, If You Can Fake That You've Got It Made. I can never come up with this kind of thing on the spot. Silver2195 posted:I was sort of baffled by FATE Aspects when I read the 1e rules, because the main example they gave of an Aspect was Porthos being strong. And I was thinking, why do we need Aspects for that when we already have skills? I think the FATE writers realized this too, because modern FATE has a skill for feats of strength (Physique). Tagging a Scene Aspect for a Bonus posted:Trevor has just interrupted a back room poker game at a pub known to be the hang out of a suspect. Sarah describes how the poker players, all local ne’er-do-wells including the suspect look up worriedly, an atmosphere of nervous tension settling over the proceedings. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Mar 21, 2024 |
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Mar 21, 2024 15:09
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I used to not like Aspects. Still don't, when they're Fate style. But Wildsea's combination of Aspects, "Stunts" (e.g., Feats/Edges), and Hit Points into one singular thing is just sublime brilliance.
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Mar 21, 2024 16:03
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I like how Neon City Overdrive and games that build on it (Hard City, Tomorrow City, Star Scoundrels) do aspects. You get Trademarks which, if you're using one from the list the author suggests, comes with some Traits (which tells you when they'd be applicable) and Flaws (which you can take, so that you can use them to regain metacurrency).   You can also use XP to turn the Traits into Edges, which gives you an extra die in the dice pool when they're applicable. (You can come up with your own, if you want.)  It's very elegant.
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Mar 21, 2024 16:18
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Aspects are intended to be evocative, that's part of how they work. Lots of examples in the book are explicitly evocative to get people in the right mindset, rather than thinking of adjectives for their character. I think Lizardman would be fine in most games, though I like that having dense Aspects lets them cover more ground (like Lizardman of the Lost Hell-Fen). I gotta agree that there's too many bad examples, and the new Fate does a better job of it, and solves a lot of problems by tying it into the Fate point economy. Free-form features like Aspects or Qualities in PDQ are intended, I think, to do two things: let you start a game quickly, and have extremely creative character components.
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Mar 21, 2024 16:22
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Speaking of fate points: I just read Warrior, Rogue, and Mage, and despite liking the general idea of the game, a lot of aspects of the implementation annoy me. The big one is fate points: they’re almost entirely based on GM fiat (you even need GM permission to spend them at all), and they don’t even automatically regenerate, but your starting number of them depends on your Rogue stat, so you’re paying resources at character creation for them. I’m also a bit suspicious of the game’s balance (I suspect the ideal build is Warrior 4, Rogue 0, Mage 6, with the Blood Mage Talent and the Thaumaturgy skill), though of course I’m not going to say that for certain without actually playing it.
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Mar 21, 2024 16:38
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Subjunctive posted:I would be interested in the LEGO words for sure! Previously I've used lego-brick to describe a couple of things but while typing this out I realised kitbash works better for the class-based version. If you're building a model you can put it together according to the instructions and apply the provided stickers where you think they look coolest and you pick which of the detachable accessories go on the model or go in the drawer and now you have a very cool gundam. When you're making your second model you might decide that one of the optional accessories from your first model would look very cool with this model. For another model you might take one of the second model's guns and, you know what, if you turn it right and put one of the first one's stickers on it it works just as well as a kickass sword. Or maybe that guy's arms would look cool as that guy's legs. Or maybe, if I try very hard, I can make a robot entirely out of guns. Or I can keep building and posing models as they're intended and neither is innately superior to the other. Point-buy systems like GURPS, AFMBE etc are definitely lego-brick character creation. You have a whole bunch of parts with obvious uses and obvious limitiations on what fits where. You can mix and match spaceship parts to build a huge variety of cool spaceships and, while you're still limited by what's available, they all work on a common foundation of mutual interoperability. So you can build exactly what's on the instructions and limit yourself to positioning the little men in fun poses, but it's a natural progression to shift some things around and make a slightly different spaceship, or realise that a radar dish also kind of looks like a cool gun, or to take your three different boxes of spaceships and put them all in a box and start building your own crazy spaceships and space stations that look nothing like ones on the box but are still cool as hell and oh man I turned an engine into an ion canon this rocks. I wonder if I could make a gun out of an entire robot? Or, again, I can just make all the models according to the instructions and then hang them off various plants scattered around my house. By comparison character creation in PDQ or FATE core is modeling with clay. There are no limitations beyond your imagination and the limitations of the material itself. This isn't a slam on PDQ, quite the opposite. I love making stuff with clay and paint. I have a weird little guy I made out of clay and paint over two decades ago staring at me right now (this is not a metaphor, he lives in a plant pot with some lego guys and I love him dearly). There's probably a huge overlap between people who think "storygames aren't real RPGs" and "clay sculpture isn't real work" and they're all idiots. I'd be stretching the analogy to try to find a similar themed name for PBtA and FitD games so I'm not going to. The point is to describe the kind of game I'm thinking of and what the appeal is, not to find a grand universal children's toy based categorisation system for RPGs. Wait did I type that? In this forum? About this topic? How sick am I? Anyway I'll type up some more concrete, less metaphorical pros and cons and design goals and such of kitbash/lego brick systems later. Splicer fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Mar 21, 2024 |
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Mar 21, 2024 18:04
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I think the analogue would be minis, you often have a ton of scope for customization with basic tools but it's within a well defined set and aesthetic, and it's doing a set of specific defined things. Getting much past that space quickly returns you into the modelling with clay territory (because you have to essentially make a new PBTA hack).
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Mar 21, 2024 18:22
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Ghost Leviathan posted:This is very Unknown Armies. To be fair, Disco Elysium is very much what an Unknown Armies -mancer would feel like after waking up without any charges.
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Mar 21, 2024 18:26
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Nessus posted:I think the analogue would be minis, you often have a ton of scope for customization with basic tools but it's within a well defined set and aesthetic, and it's doing a set of specific defined things. Getting much past that space quickly returns you into the modelling with clay territory (because you have to essentially make a new PBTA hack). There was absolutely no benefit and quite a lot of detriment to me fully explaining why Apocalypse World uses the Amazing Crash Test Dummies of character creation. Splicer fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Mar 21, 2024 |
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Mar 21, 2024 18:45
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AmiYumi posted:squabbled over drafts, forked, and disbanded 
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Mar 21, 2024 20:49
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Mr.Misfit posted:To be fair, Disco Elysium is very much what an Unknown Armies -mancer would feel like after waking up without any charges. That's a very funny, but correct, way to think of the game.
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Mar 22, 2024 15:16
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One of my favourite system things from Disco Elysium is the idea that all skills are knowledge and insight skills. So if you're good at hurting people you also know some relevant stuff about anatomy and can anticipate when people are about to get violent. Any ttrpgs that explicitly work like that?
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Mar 22, 2024 15:46
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Tarnop posted:One of my favourite system things from Disco Elysium is the idea that all skills are knowledge and insight skills. So if you're good at hurting people you also know some relevant stuff about anatomy and can anticipate when people are about to get violent. Any ttrpgs that explicitly work like that? Wildsea gets close. All of it's skills are meant to be used broadly and for knowledge. Explicitly, Languages (functionally identical to skills) also cover social interaction, cultural awareness, and general knowledge of the thing that culture cares about.   So you can't really become fluent in Signalling (forex) without picking up a lot of information about weather and sailor's culture. It's a nice touch.
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Mar 22, 2024 16:43
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Tarnop posted:One of my favourite system things from Disco Elysium is the idea that all skills are knowledge and insight skills. So if you're good at hurting people you also know some relevant stuff about anatomy and can anticipate when people are about to get violent. Any ttrpgs that explicitly work like that? GURPS lets you roll any skill against any attribute for alternate uses that make sense. You might do IQ-based rolls against DX-based crafting skills that normally require manual dexterity to instead design things or identify things about an item you are examining. Or against weapon skills to identify specific models of weapons, clear weapon failures like jams, or identify someone's fighting style, or teach someone how to use it. Or against Environment Suit to judge if protective gear will do its job given its condition and the situation. Or against Driving to do things like read maps and perform basic auto maintenance and simple repairs. The opposite is true like doing DX-based Forgery rolls to copy a signature, against high-tech IQ-based crafting skills to do fine work, Herb Lore to pick tricky, delicate plants, or against HT-based sports skills to avoid obstacles while skiing or skating, etc.. There are also silly genre-specific applications like Mars Attacks letting you use Gaming skills (IQ-based) to fire ray guns, fly stolen UFOs, or wear prototype powered battlesuits (all DX-based applications). GURPS' skill system is really one of the best parts of it. I like how much granularity it provides in determining what a character is good at. You can have a whole party of smart or dexterous or athletic characters with zero overlap in skillset which is great for niche protection and letting characters have spotlight time. Of course, the skill floor for running a good GURPS campaign is also higher than most if not all games, so... BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Mar 22, 2024 |
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Mar 22, 2024 17:07
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Tarnop posted:One of my favourite system things from Disco Elysium is the idea that all skills are knowledge and insight skills. So if you're good at hurting people you also know some relevant stuff about anatomy and can anticipate when people are about to get violent. Any ttrpgs that explicitly work like that? I believe that Feng Shui and Unknown Armies both specify that their skills are meant to cover physical, social, and intellectual uses (so a gun skill is used to shoot guns, know about guns, repair guns, and to find other people in the gun-lugger community)
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Mar 22, 2024 17:08
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Parkreiner posted:I believe that Feng Shui and Unknown Armies both specify that their skills are meant to cover physical, social, and intellectual uses (so a gun skill is used to shoot guns, know about guns, repair guns, and to find other people in the gun-lugger community) 
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Mar 22, 2024 17:12
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roll byob to chill
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Mar 22, 2024 17:31
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Parkreiner posted:I believe that Feng Shui and Unknown Armies both specify that their skills are meant to cover physical, social, and intellectual uses (so a gun skill is used to shoot guns, know about guns, repair guns, and to find other people in the gun-lugger community) I was about to bring up Feng Shui. I think the 1st ed version was the first game to do that actually.
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Mar 22, 2024 18:12
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Some new games for my reading list, thanks all
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Mar 22, 2024 18:16
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Ominous Jazz posted:roll byob to chill TGD: Medicine and Diagnosis TFR: Gun's Pet Island: Animal Ken C-SPAM: Communist Propaganda GBS: Anything that doesn't fit elsewhere; making GBS threads your pants
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Mar 22, 2024 18:24
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The theme of the game is you are playing someone who cannot do anything without posting about it first. When you see someone having a heart attack, you roll TGD to post to ask about what to do. When you're rolling byob it's not because you're chilling, but because you're posting about how chill you are. If you post well enough, you might actually become chill.
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Mar 22, 2024 21:22
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Nessus posted:GBS: Anything that doesn't fit elsewhere; making GBS threads your pants On the one hand, it's neat to be able to point to your character sheet and say definitively "my character has Hobby: Gamer, he'd be able to fit right in with this crowd" or establish connections between characters because they're all on the agency softball team or what have you. This is something D&D5e did quite well, in my opinion - the Backgrounds system makes it hard to assemble a party without any hooks, in my experience you always get something like "Ricky and Priya can play instruments, I'm good with dice and cards, and Zeke can drive a wagon; I guess we were traveling street performers or part of a circus" On the other hand, while it theoretically keeps down skill bloat, it can still result in the "feels bad" situation where your concept demands spending character resources on something that will most likely never come up in game. Hell, even without that, I'm reminded of a L5R character who was highly skilled in math, finance, stewardship, and various Clan histories and etiquette, literally none of which ever came up in the murder mystery Bottle Episode that was the adventure.
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Mar 22, 2024 21:32
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Tarnop posted:One of my favourite system things from Disco Elysium is the idea that all skills are knowledge and insight skills. So if you're good at hurting people you also know some relevant stuff about anatomy and can anticipate when people are about to get violent. Any ttrpgs that explicitly work like that? 13th age is like that too, so you have four dots in 'land pirate of the wind burnt plains' that will give you information and skills to do with land ships, the plains, land sailing, climbing ropes, piracy etc.
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Mar 22, 2024 21:52
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Nessus posted:Ask/Tell: Arcana SAD: ritual petition to the divine powers TG: Opening your third eye to the rules that govern the universe, and manipulating them. Planar travel; the art of being; combat psychology magic TGR: realizing you're in a simulation. Godhood. Roll against TGR for insanity checks, and to use your god powers.
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Mar 22, 2024 21:54
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AmiYumi posted:This reminds me of a thing I've seen a couple of games do which I go back and forth on liking, having a skill or two on the list that's just "hobby" or "pub trivia" or "pop culture", usually with most characters getting one or two free A lot of this probably comes down to group dynamics and "how does the GM write/prep adventures?" Some GMs might have an easier time remembering / incorporating character abilities / skills / traits that are structured broadly, and generally, others might more easily latch onto something really specific to make individual characters shine, and yet others will think up the adventure more or less in a vacuum and leave the integration of the characters to be solved later as a group effort.
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Mar 22, 2024 22:01
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sebmojo posted:13th age is like that too, so you have four dots in 'land pirate of the wind burnt plains' that will give you information and skills to do with land ships, the plains, land sailing, climbing ropes, piracy etc. That's a good point, I've played 13th Age too. For some reason I didn't think of backgrounds
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Mar 22, 2024 22:09
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Tarnop posted:One of my favourite system things from Disco Elysium is the idea that all skills are knowledge and insight skills. So if you're good at hurting people you also know some relevant stuff about anatomy and can anticipate when people are about to get violent. Any ttrpgs that explicitly work like that? Among the other examples already given, PDQ's Qualities are explicitly supposed to work like that, so for example if you have a Rock Star quality you can use it for social stuff to wow people, to know stuff about music, to know stuff about corporate workings because of all the behind-the-scenes poo poo of a major musician's career, and so on. Similar to the 13th Age example, Spellbound Kingdoms has Histories which are build-your-own skills that summarize in a quick phrase what you know and where it came from. They don't have direct crossover with combat and magic, however, so they don't go fully into what you're wanting here.
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Mar 22, 2024 22:16
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Unknown Armies 3e also has a pretty good version of this, with the (iirc) "Identities" system, where you choose your character's main archetype or schtick, which covers everything a person with that identity would logically know, in the form of "I'm a (doctor/botanist/Dagon cultist), so of course I know that/can do that."
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Mar 22, 2024 22:20
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I'm going to read Unknown Armies. Hell, I might even play it
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Mar 22, 2024 22:20
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BattleMaster posted:GURPS lets you roll any skill against any attribute for alternate uses that make sense. You might do IQ-based rolls against DX-based crafting skills that normally require manual dexterity to instead design things or identify things about an item you are examining. Or against weapon skills to identify specific models of weapons, clear weapon failures like jams, or identify someone's fighting style, or teach someone how to use it. Or against Environment Suit to judge if protective gear will do its job given its condition and the situation. Or against Driving to do things like read maps and perform basic auto maintenance and simple repairs. Yeah, one of the benefits of the voluminous skill system is you really can have a group of four doctors who are all good at different aspects of the profession. It's good, IMO. Having a fairly granular set of things the character is good at really helps ground the character and keeps the game from being a fishing expedition.
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Mar 23, 2024 03:07
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I'll be honest, GURPS gives me the fear
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Mar 23, 2024 03:12
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Tarnop posted:I'm going to read Unknown Armies. Hell, I might even play it uninown armies fucks, the one campaign i got to play was some of my favourite roleplaying i've ever done
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Mar 23, 2024 08:08
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, one of the benefits of the voluminous skill system is you really can have a group of four doctors who are all good at different aspects of the profession. It's good, IMO. Having a fairly granular set of things the character is good at really helps ground the character and keeps the game from being a fishing expedition. I think people have trouble understanding the idea of adjusting granularity depending on relevance. But I think there's ways to do it. I'm reminded of the joke about Ghostbusters being a Call of Cthulhu game gone off the rails, and it specifically starts with three doctors interested in the paranormal, freshly kicked out of academia, who might seem the same on paper but they clearly have their own specialties, interests, and different relationships with and viewpoints on the occult. One thing I think people are getting a lot better at is having even a surface understanding of genre conventions and what they mean for systems.
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Mar 23, 2024 11:18
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GURPS is ftw
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Mar 23, 2024 11:36
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Jimbozig posted:The theme of the game is you are playing someone who cannot do anything without posting about it first. Everyone Is Grover
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Mar 23, 2024 11:54
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gradenko_2000 posted:GURPS is ftw drat straight. Ghost Leviathan posted:I think people have trouble understanding the idea of adjusting granularity depending on relevance. But I think there's ways to do it. I'm reminded of the joke about Ghostbusters being a Call of Cthulhu game gone off the rails, and it specifically starts with three doctors interested in the paranormal, freshly kicked out of academia, who might seem the same on paper but they clearly have their own specialties, interests, and different relationships with and viewpoints on the occult. This is true, though I think one of he benefits of GURPS-type systems is you don't need so much of an understanding of genre to get at characters if you're using the system right. You can kind of take things quite literally and it still works, which is great, say, if you're running a Sengoku Jidai-set game with someone who doesn't know much about it. PbtA and FitD games are indeed fairly light mechanically, but for those systems to really shine you have to have a good amount of exposure to the genres they're about to be able to free-form create and know where the interesting limits really are.
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Mar 23, 2024 12:10
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If someone were to read a GURPS book, knowing nothing about it other than its reputation as the system with rules for everything, where would you recommend they start? Is it like FATE where you're better off reading one of the specific implementations than the general system book to get a feel for it?
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Mar 23, 2024 12:41
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Tarnop posted:If someone were to read a GURPS book, knowing nothing about it other than its reputation as the system with rules for everything, where would you recommend they start? Is it like FATE where you're better off reading one of the specific implementations than the general system book to get a feel for it? What would you be looking for out of the read? Ultimately, the only two 'implementations' that kind of work as standalone books with all the rules are the Basic Books (2) and the Dungeon Fantasy books (4), though GURPS also has a pretty good reputation for having supplements written by people who know a lot about a genre or thing(though fewer of those are done nowadays than were done in the 90s). The Basic Books are divided into "Characters" and "Campaigns" which very roughly translates to "character creation" and "game mechanics", so you'd really need both to make too much sense of it.
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Mar 23, 2024 13:07
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https://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/
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Mar 23, 2024 13:12
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