[Doomsday Economics] your economic system is a piece of shit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Doomsday Economics] your economic system is a piece of shit

(Thread IKs: skooma512)

Suplex Liberace: Jan 18, 2012

SirPablo posted:

The article says she requested MAID, not that she was put on it. It does indicate it is unclear how she obtained it though. Not much to go on there really.

if its like many other cases in canada her doctor probably suggested it to her as her only option for treatment

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:04

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 17:15

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Business Gorillas posted:

I do this because the whole point of speakerphone is so I don't have to cramp my neck or hold it up to my idiot face

Holding it in front of my face puts the microphone closest to my mouth (since people complain they can't hear me if I do something else)

hold the top to your ear and the bottom to your mouth. this is how a telephone has been used for thousands of years.

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:05

Business Gorillas: Mar 11, 2009

mawarannahr posted:

hold the top to your ear and the bottom to your mouth. this is how a telephone has been used for thousands of years.

As an android haver & speakerphone user, I won't let you discriminate against my civil rights

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:09

Nocturtle: Mar 17, 2007

You can't discount the random MAID horror stories as isolated incidents. They are an inevitable, incentivized and logical outcome of the current provision of social support and end of life care. It's like seeing a cop murder a black person and concluding it was just a single bad apple.

I used to think MAID was in principle a good idea, in part due to spending too much time volunteering in a lovely retirement/long term care home. The actual implementation in Canada has been so disastrous and I don't support it now. I'm honestly not sure what the solution is even at the personal level, because as mentioned you don't want to end up senile in long term care but a just MAID system isn't possible in our society.

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:10

webcams for christ: Nov 2, 2005

Business Gorillas posted:

As an android haver & speakerphone user, I won't let you discriminate against my civil rights

if you're somewhere where it's acceptable to carry a conversation at normal volume, it's acceptable to use speaker phone

getting mad about it in that circumstance says more about you than the phone user

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:18

Business Gorillas: Mar 11, 2009

Nocturtle posted:

You can't discount the random MAID horror stories as isolated incidents. They are an inevitable, incentivized and logical outcome of the current provision of social support and end of life care. It's like seeing a cop murder a black person and concluding it was just a single bad apple.

I used to think MAID was in principle a good idea, in part due to spending too much time volunteering in a lovely retirement/long term care home. The actual implementation in Canada has been so disastrous and I don't support it now. I'm honestly not sure what the solution is even at the personal level, because as mentioned you don't want to end up senile in long term care but a just MAID system isn't possible in our society.

As always, the problem is capitalism

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:20

SirPablo: May 1, 2004; Pillbug

Nocturtle posted:

You can't discount the random MAID horror stories as isolated incidents. They are an inevitable, incentivized and logical outcome of the current provision of social support and end of life care. It's like seeing a cop murder a black person and concluding it was just a single bad apple.

I used to think MAID was in principle a good idea, in part due to spending too much time volunteering in a lovely retirement/long term care home. The actual implementation in Canada has been so disastrous and I don't support it now. I'm honestly not sure what the solution is even at the personal level, because as mentioned you don't want to end up senile in long term care but a just MAID system isn't possible in our society.

That's fair, thanks.

Business Gorillas posted:

As an android haver & speakerphone user, I won't let you discriminate against my civil rights

Use earbuds

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:20

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

webcams for christ posted:

if you're somewhere where it's acceptable to carry a conversation at normal volume, it's acceptable to use speaker phone

getting mad about it in that circumstance says more about you than the phone user

It's extremely goony behavior. You should be having conversation with other people on the bus. It's called being social, and if you're not doing that, you're being asocial.

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:24

Nothus: Feb 22, 2001; Buglord

Here's a nice chaser to the "euthanize the poor" discourse

https://x.com/NewYorker/status/1435073821267177473?s=20

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:27

Cerepol: Dec 2, 2011

webcams for christ posted:

if you're somewhere where it's acceptable to carry a conversation at normal volume, it's acceptable to use speaker phone

getting mad about it in that circumstance says more about you than the phone user

do these people use normal volume where you're at?
everytime here it's some crusty old gently caress yelling into his max volume phone being way louder then anything else

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:28

Complications: Jun 19, 2014

mawarannahr posted:

It's extremely goony behavior. You should be having conversation with other people on the bus. It's called being social, and if you're not doing that, you're being asocial.

First you life havers want us to get out of our rooms and talk to people, now you want us to talk to people beside us while out of our rooms? Where does it end? At what point have we committed sufficient tribute to "society" that we can return to our dark holes for good?

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:28

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

Lol at talking to people on the bus. Psycho poo poo

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:31

loquacius: Oct 21, 2008; Can't post for 4 hours!

My wife has a grandparent currently dying of dementia, one year after my last grandparent did, and in both cases the effect it has on me is to concoct elaborate fantasies of hiring an assassin to dome me with a sniper rifle at a random place and time instead of having it happen to me

my sister-in-law is a dog trainer and her reaction to seeing her grandma in the state she's in was "we would never let an animal suffer like this"

but I understand what people are saying about it being essentially another means for the state to decide who lives or dies and lord knows we have enough of those

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:32

JAY ZERO SUM GAME: Oct 18, 2005; Walter.
I know you know how to do this.
Get up.

Nothus posted:

Here's a nice chaser to the "euthanize the poor" discourse

https://x.com/NewYorker/status/1435073821267177473?s=20

it's taken about 100 years, but we are back baby, eugenics is IN

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:33

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Nothus posted:

Here's a nice chaser to the "euthanize the poor" discourse

https://x.com/NewYorker/status/1435073821267177473?s=20

progressives have always been race scientists and Nazis so that�s a weird headline

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:33

RealityWarCriminal: Aug 10, 2016

everyone on the bus is using earphones and watching tiktoks

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:33

Nothus: Feb 22, 2001; Buglord

lmao at talking to strangers on transit. Curtly answering your questions while their eyes dart towards the exit, praying their stop is next.

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:33

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

loquacius posted:

My wife has a grandparent currently dying of dementia, one year after my last grandparent did, and in both cases the effect it has on me is to concoct elaborate fantasies of hiring an assassin to dome me with a sniper rifle at a random place and time instead of having it happen to me

I know for sure that I'll never let dementia take hold of me. But the tricky bit is knowing when it's bad enough to warrant offing myself, yet not so bad as to prevent me doing so

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:35

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

SirPablo posted:

Am I mis-reading some of you that it would be preferable to have an elderly person wither away the last few (potentially lovely) years of their life and let different parts of the health care industry bleed them dry instead of letting the person peace-out and leave what they have left to their family?

i dont want rich people to decide it's too expensive to let my mom live

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:37

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

lol

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:37

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Nothus posted:

lmao at talking to strangers on transit. Curtly answering your questions while their eyes dart towards the exit, praying their stop is next.

I still keep in touch with a couple folks who I met on the city bus 15 years ago :shrug:

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:38

Wraith of J.O.I.: Jan 25, 2012

Nothus posted:

Here's a nice chaser to the "euthanize the poor" discourse

https://x.com/NewYorker/status/1435073821267177473?s=20

how about trying to breed a new Lenin like the kwisatz haderach

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:38

loquacius: Oct 21, 2008; Can't post for 4 hours!

The Oldest Man posted:

i dont want rich people to decide it's too expensive to let my mom live

Insurance already does this in many circumstances. The only difference is they generously give you the option of paying for it out of pocket if they decide they won't

I dunno, we're ALREADY in a situation where people who will never meet or speak to you and (notably) are not doctors are deciding what healthcare we do or do not need, they just work for private industry instead of the government

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:38

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

there were socialists into eugenics too
Prostitution and ways of fighting it by Alexandra Kollontai

www.marxists.org posted:

Speech by Alexandra Kollontai to the third all-Russian conference of heads of the Regional Women�s Departments, 1921.
�

At a joint meeting of the department of maternity protection and the women�s department, Professor Kol�tsov spoke about eugenics, the science of maintaining and improving the health of humanity. Prostitution is closely connected with this problem, since it is one of the main ways in which infections are spread. The theses of the interdepartmental commission on the struggle against prostitution point out that the development of special measures to fight venereal diseases is an urgent task. Steps must of course be taken to deal with all sources of the diseases, and not solely with prostitution in the way that hypocritical bourgeois society does. But although the diseases are spread to some extent by everyday circumstances, it is nevertheless essential to give everyone a clear idea of the role prostitution plays. The correct organisation of sexual education for young people is especially important. We must arm young people with accurate information allowing them to enter life with their eyes open. We must not remain silent any longer over questions connected with sexual life; we must break with false and bigoted bourgeois morality.

another socialist wrote

quote:

IR: Much of the discussion aroused by Dr. Haiselden when he permitted the Bollinger baby to die centers around a belief in the sacredness of life. If many of those that object to the physician's course would take the trouble to analyze their idea of "life," I think they would find that it means just to breathe. Surely they must admit that such an existence is not worth while. It is the possibilities of happiness, intelligence and power that give life its sanctity, and they are absent in the case of a poor, misshapen, paralyzed, unthinking creature. I think there are many more clear cases of such hopeless death-in-life than the critics of Dr. Haiselden realize. The toleration of such anomalies tends to lessen the sacredness in which normal life is held.

There is one objection, however, to this weeding of the human garden that shows a sincere love of true life. It is the fear that we cannot trust any mortal with so responsible and delicate a task. Yet have not mortals for long ages been entrusted with the decision of questions just as momentous and far-reaching; with kingship, with the education of the race, with feeding, clothing, sheltering and employing their fellowmen? In the jury of the criminal court we have an institution that is called upon to make just such decisions as Dr. Haiselden made, to decide whether a man is fit to associate with his fellows, whether he is fit to live.

It seems to me that the simplest, wisest thing to do would be to submit cases like that of the malformed idiot baby to a jury of expert physicians. An ordinary jury decides matters of life and death on the evidence of untrained and often prejudiced observers. Their own verdict is not based on a knowledge of criminology, and they are often swayed by obscure prejudices or the eloquence of a prosecutor. Even if the accused before them is guilty, there is often no way of knowing that he would commit new crimes, that he would not become a useful and productive member of society. A mental defective, on the other hand, is almost sure to be a potential criminal. The evidence before a jury of physicians considering the case of an idiot would be exact and scientific. Their findings would be free from the prejudice and inaccuracy of untrained observation. They would act only in cases of true idiocy, where there could be no hope of mental development.

It is true, the physicians' court might be liable to abuse like other courts. The powerful of the earth might use it to decide cases to suit themselves. But if the evidence were presented openly and the decisions made public before the death of the child, there would be little danger of mistakes or abuses. Anyone interested in the case who did not believe the child ought to die might be permitted to provide for its care and maintenance. It would be humanly impossible to give absolute guarantees for every baby worth saving, but a similar condition prevails throughout our lives. Conservatives ask too much perfection of these new methods and institutions, although they know how far the old ones have fallen short of what they were expected to accomplish. We can only wait and hope for better results as the average of human intelligence, trustworthiness and justice arises. Meanwhile we must decide between a fine humanity like Dr. Haiselden's and a cowardly sentimentalism.

HELEN KELLER.
Wrentham, Mass.

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:41

webcams for christ: Nov 2, 2005

loquacius posted:

Insurance already does this in many circumstances. The only difference is they generously give you the option of paying for it out of pocket if they decide they won't

I dunno, we're ALREADY in a situation where people who will never meet or speak to you and (notably) are not doctors are deciding what healthcare we do or do not need, they just work for private industry instead of the government

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:41

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

remember the d&d eugenics thread that had a bunch of required prerequisite pro-eugenics reading to legally participate in?

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:43

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

loquacius posted:

Insurance already does this in many circumstances. The only difference is they generously give you the option of paying for it out of pocket if they decide they won't

I dunno, we're ALREADY in a situation where people who will never meet or speak to you and (notably) are not doctors are deciding what healthcare we do or do not need, they just work for private industry instead of the government

i think you will agree there is a qualitative difference between an insurance company tying my doctors hands or forcing my mom or me to take on unreasonable debt to get necessary treatment vs what's quite visibly coming which is maid for olds

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:44

Mandel Brotset: Jan 1, 2024

fart simpson posted:

remember the d&d eugenics thread that had a bunch of required prerequisite pro-eugenics reading to legally participate in?

no, but also lol

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:46

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

Willa's going to have to go on the lam from the sand men

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:46

OH MY BAD: Feb 5, 2024; by Pragmatica

tbf i would feel a great burden lifted if i was told my poverty was a genetic inevitability

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:47

no lube so what: Apr 11, 2021

Nocturtle posted:

You can't discount the random MAID horror stories as isolated incidents. They are an inevitable, incentivized and logical outcome of the current provision of social support and end of life care. It's like seeing a cop murder a black person and concluding it was just a single bad apple.

I used to think MAID was in principle a good idea, in part due to spending too much time volunteering in a lovely retirement/long term care home. The actual implementation in Canada has been so disastrous and I don't support it now. I'm honestly not sure what the solution is even at the personal level, because as mentioned you don't want to end up senile in long term care but a just MAID system isn't possible in our society.

it like a lot of things, it�s should have been decriminalized, not �legalized� and used as a social murder tool

see; weed, booze, gambling, etc

like, average joe shouldn�t be penalized for that poo poo cause it�s problems that could be solved with support/willingness/resources. turning into a profitable industry that grinds up people is stupid

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:47

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

The Oldest Man posted:

i dont want rich people to decide it's too expensive to let my mom live

"medicare" "advantage" insurers do this every day, same with private insurers for non-seniors.

efb

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:49

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

Willa Rogers posted:

"medicare" "advantage" insurers do this every day, same with private insurers for non-seniors.

they aren't recommending suicide as the standard of care yet last i checked

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:50

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

Mandel Brotset posted:

no, but also lol

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3948778

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:50

nomad2020: Jan 30, 2007

SirPablo posted:

You're adding the stipulation of the person being poor/less desirable, not what I was getting at.

Honestly, in the US, its hard for me to imagine explicitly giving this power to the government without it becoming the final solution to the homelessness and chronic drug addiction problems.

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:51

Nocturtle: Mar 17, 2007

loquacius posted:

Insurance already does this in many circumstances. The only difference is they generously give you the option of paying for it out of pocket if they decide they won't

I dunno, we're ALREADY in a situation where people who will never meet or speak to you and (notably) are not doctors are deciding what healthcare we do or do not need, they just work for private industry instead of the government

Yes, MAID is generating a lot of headlines and gets a lot of attention for obvious reasons but the alternative is really not much better. Dying painfully with inadequate long-term care is also unacceptable but also a very real possibility for any non-rich person in the current system. Even in places with UHC like Canada or the UK the conditions in the kinds of care homes that can be afforded without significant private savings are terrible. The average worker cannot save enough to guarantee good quality end of life care out of savings.

You can imagine the ideal system from a capitalist perspective is one that will drain any savings from an older person then swiftly dumping their care on the state or pushing MAID when they've run out of money. This appears to be largely what we're getting.

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:53

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

The Oldest Man posted:

they aren't recommending suicide as the standard of care yet last i checked

true, but they're effectively encouraging it & supporting it by their practices.

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:54

Engorged Pedipalps: Apr 21, 2023

euphronius posted:

it’s not an option for a lot of people

helping people die at home is full time job, maybe two full time jobs

And if you just do an amateur job of it they will charge you with crimes and throw you in jail for elderly abuse

Geriatric and end of life care is one of the most insane rackets we have

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:58

loquacius: Oct 21, 2008; Can't post for 4 hours!

it doesn't seem that hard to say that the theoretical single-payer system which we'll never get either way should allow MAID on an opt-in basis but not require or recommend it as a rule

we can make rules like this in a public system, especially one which will never actually exist

# ? Apr 1, 2024 16:58

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 17:15

Engorged Pedipalps: Apr 21, 2023

In an ideal utopia you have suicide booths but people only ever gently caress in them because all of their needs are provided for by society and the incentive to shuffle off is greatly reduced

# ? Apr 1, 2024 17:00

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