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No Mods No Masters posted:Yeah I don't want to be a book grump about it, at least while the final outcome is unknown. I'll try to mostly keep my negative poo poo to myself this week. and the thing about that is he is specifically stalling so he is NOT in Osaka in order to draw his enemies out. It wouldn't even make sense. Both for the semi-fictional character and historically. I guess they're figuring people don't know anything about Japanese history, which I guess is a fair assumption.
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Apr 3, 2024 03:13
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I got a good laugh out of Yabu taking out his frustrations on Blackthorne with the "fight", then being completely bewildered by Buntaro rushing in looking to kill before suddenly running away in despair... and Yabu who kicked this all off goes,"Uhhh.. you're lucky I was here to save your life!"
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Apr 3, 2024 03:17
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Jamwad Hilder posted:and the thing about that is he is specifically stalling so he is NOT in Osaka in order to draw his enemies out. It wouldn't even make sense. Both for the semi-fictional character and historically. I guess they're figuring people don't know anything about Japanese history, which I guess is a fair assumption. I would love to be wrong and just completely underestimating the writers. But I think their argument would be that's hard to depict in a filmic format in an exciting way
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Apr 3, 2024 03:17
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No Mods No Masters posted:I would love to be wrong and just completely underestimating the writers. But I think their argument would be that's hard to depict in a filmic format in an exciting way I think they'll do better than that but it's a distinct possibility. As I said before, some of the cuts to Blackthorne scenes feel like they just weren't filled in with anything meaningful- i'm not that interested in the way of the Japanese hooker, to be honest.
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Apr 3, 2024 03:20
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In line with that, I feel like a more subtle but really major change that is probably too late to alter at this point is blackthorne and mariko not really coming across as particularly in love, compared to ending up wildly, kinda embarrassingly, in love in the book. Before watching this most recent episode I would have assumed one of the things it would do would be backfilling some of that but uh nope, not at all. After this episode we've probably spent more time on buntaro raging out about his suspicions of their relationship than their actual relationship. It's really going to change the tone of the ending because I can't really see blackthorne being devastated in the same way
No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Apr 3, 2024 |
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Apr 3, 2024 03:27
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Saeki sounds like a Tekken character when he speaks.
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Apr 3, 2024 03:44
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Funniest part of this episode (and really, the entire show) for me is that I have absolutely no recollection of Toranaga's son from the book. I can't even remember his name having finished the episode ten minutes ago! And now I won't have to lol I remember broad strokes from the book but not so much of the specifics, I'm guess I'm going in semi-blind from here on out. I remember the Jesuits having a slightly more pronounced role, maybe coming up in the next episode?
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Apr 3, 2024 04:30
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Overall quality of the show is still quite good but the last 3 episodes feature serious amounts of meandering that doesn't befit the tight script of the first 4 episodes. This Buntaro/Mariko/Blackthorne love and self-loathing triangle needs to poo poo or get off the pot. Instead, we get an endless dribble of Buntaro Mariko scenes with Toranaga being a terrible marriage counsellor. The master warlord Toranaga politicking and scheming needs to poo poo or get off the pot. Instead, we get 3 episodes of him brooding over the same issues over and over again with no resolution. The development of the "true" relationship between Blackthorne and Toranaga needs to poo poo or get off the pot. Instead, we get 3 episodes of Blackthorne pining over his ship and whining that he is getting rewards he doesn't care about. Thank god at least the fail son finally dies and that storyline finally wrapped up. We just get bits and pieces, and by the 3rd episode, it is simply stalling. A much better 3 episode arc would have been to feature the development of Blackthorne and Toranaga's relationship in one episode where he could feature his initial desire to flee Japan morph over time through saving Toranaga from the earthquake and being presumably the only guy worthy of being in on Toranaga's plans or be the catalyst to shake Toranaga out of his haze. We could have a second episode dealing with Toranaga's machinations, and a third focused on the love triangle before launching into the final 3rd of the series. Obviously, there will be some bleeding over from concurrent events between episodes but each one should be far more focused than juggling a half dozen swords in the fire. I hope they manage to wrap up all the loose ends they have left for themselves without it having it now feels super rushed because multiple story beats are resolved in quick succession over 3 remaining episodes while also having to devote time to the plot.
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Apr 3, 2024 05:06
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I would be not worried at all if there were like, six episodes left instead of 3. Just some slight panic that they're going to rush through to tie it up and gloss over major plot points game of thrones final season style and for what? Forty minutes in the rain? To be fair this was the only episode i had issues with. Maybe the last three will knock it out of the park. And well, if it gets people reading Shogun that's a win for me
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Apr 3, 2024 05:15
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I agree that episodes 5 and 6 were slow but provided tons of character moments and build up. It's only Ep 7 that seemed to rehash the same plot / character beats. Ep8 has a lot of ground to make up for that was squandered by Ep7. They could have shaved off 30 minutes of sad Toranaga and cucked Buntaro and made room for more development between Toranaga and his inner circle.
FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Apr 3, 2024 |
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Apr 3, 2024 05:47
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Twitter is going nuts for that ending though. So maybe they get something out of that. It was pretty shocking
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Apr 3, 2024 06:03
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It was well acted by both the dying failson and Saeki, the latter's look of pure shock followed by annoyed disappointment was perfect.
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Apr 3, 2024 06:40
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Wikipedia has a nice little aside that describes Blackthorne, in the eyes that Toranaga and his men, as simultaneously "beneath contempt and incalculably valuable." Now, I'm glad the show has toned down the hazards of falling into a White Savior trope, but I just wish episodes 6 and 7 had done at least something to convey that above description.
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Apr 3, 2024 07:01
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:Good lord, the scene in episode 2 where Blackthorne explains the European political situation to Toranaga. These weren't just Spain and Portugal deciding, the pope also weighed in on these things. The treaty that split the world was based on a previous papal decree. The pope had influence over catholic kings and queens, so he was one of the most powerful people on the planet. So when Spain and Portugal are told by the pope that they get to own any non christian lands in some part of the earth, then they are going to believe it pretty strongly.
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Apr 3, 2024 08:33
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Cojawfee posted:These weren't just Spain and Portugal deciding, the pope also weighed in on these things. The treaty that split the world was based on a previous papal decree. The pope had influence over catholic kings and queens, so he was one of the most powerful people on the planet. So when Spain and Portugal are told by the pope that they get to own any non christian lands in some part of the earth, then they are going to believe it pretty strongly. Yeah, about 20 years before that treaty Spain and Portugal were at war over the Beltranejo claim to the Castilian throne so the Pope was trying to resolve it and future conflicts once and for all.
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Apr 3, 2024 10:45
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:Good lord, the scene in episode 2 where Blackthorne explains the European political situation to Toranaga. congratulations on discovering colonialism also, don't steppy when wet!
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Apr 3, 2024 10:46
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Personally I quite liked the last episode, even if it was on the slow side. I thought that it worked nicely as a setup/counterpoint shortly before poo poo starts really popping off (this is of course assuming that poo poo really does start popping off by next episode). Until now, both the narrative and much of the cast generally showed a certain degree of detachment from what is going to happen. A mix of a fatalistic "it is what it is" and confidence that Toranaga will eventually pull it off anyway. Toranaga himself seems to be caught up in it as well, just kinda playing out his role because he feels that's what he's supposed to do. It's not until his own son is presented with a death sentence that he seems to partially snap out of it. The episode worked to contrast that from two angles: For one, by emphasizing the very real chance that Toranaga's plan could fail entirely even just from a minor misstep or coincidence. Secondly, by showing the very real human cost of such a failure, or even success. It's set up in the prologue: Some dickhead decides he has to prosecute an unwinnable war because of "fate", and as a result a shitload of people die on a battlefield and a young child gets to be traumatized by having to kill a guy and then awkwardly mutilate his corpse. It's then reinforced by Blackthorne pointing out that every single one of Toranaga's associates is going to die while they're still just playing along. Finally it's capped off by Nagakado dying in the dumbest way for no good reason while (probably) just making everything worse.
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Apr 3, 2024 12:16
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Having not read the book, is the Erasmus a Chekov's gun, or a dud?
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Apr 3, 2024 12:36
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Burns posted:Having not read the book, is the Erasmus a Chekov's gun, or a dud? Book spoilers for stuff yet to come in the show (and edited because I just re-read a bit more): Mostly a dud, but still useful in a Toranaga-makes-it-a-political-chesspiece kinda way (no cannons on Osaka, I'm afraid) . Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Apr 3, 2024 |
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Apr 3, 2024 12:43
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I wish they weren't so saintly with Toranaga so we would get the reason Gin thought Torunaga was up to something. He visits the tea house the night before and she realizes he fucks with the precise control of a man with a plan.
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Apr 3, 2024 14:59
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I wonder if the guy with the tokugawa emblem wins at the end 
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Apr 3, 2024 15:05
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I wish they weren't so saintly with Toranaga so we would get the reason Gin thought Torunaga was up to something. lol Some parts of the book seem really loving stupid. Mostly the sex parts.
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Apr 3, 2024 16:01
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Where's that one guy from the game of thrones threadsquote:I thought this episode was garbage, personally
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Apr 3, 2024 16:02
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so without spoilers, how much of this is a deviation from the book, on a scale of 1-10? I originally sorta liked this episode, especially half-brother and his weird hat, but 2/3rds felt like rehashing the same bizarre love triangle
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Apr 3, 2024 16:04
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Vampire Panties posted:so without spoilers, how much of this is a deviation from the book, on a scale of 1-10? This episode? I dunno, maybe like an 8? Some of the plot beats were more or less the same, but there were big, significant, deviations. Overall it's pretty accurate to the book and most of the changes have been good, and relatively minor. That's kind of what made the changes to this one so jarring to me.
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Apr 3, 2024 16:06
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My one compaint (and obviously i dont have a comparison) but it does feel like the show is stuck in this one butthole village and its environs whose name i cant even remember. Like, vary up the locations a bit more.
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Apr 3, 2024 16:30
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Yeah, I wouldn't say the book feels particularly like 90% of it takes place in osaka castle and ajiro, but the show is pretty much shaping up that way. Just a budget limitation I'm sure, and one they managed pretty well until this episode where it's starting to become more obvious
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Apr 3, 2024 16:45
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Burns posted:My one compaint (and obviously i dont have a comparison) but it does feel like the show is stuck in this one butthole village and its environs whose name i cant even remember. Like, vary up the locations a bit more.  I thought we were on the move when Toranaga said he had to go get his half-brother's army and then they met in the woods, but then we were right back at Willow World and oh, that dude came to him I guess.
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Apr 3, 2024 16:59
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I hope they don't try the "Toranaga was actually puppet mastering everyone the whole time and everything went exactly according to plan" schtick in the next few episodes because I don't see a reason why he'd want to appear so defeated in front of his own generals. Them being despondent and prone to lashing out or actually betraying his ostensibly lost cause aren't beneficial to him. It absolutely has to be this. The meeting with Gin was basically an acknowledgement that he's up to something but won't tell anyone the plan
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Apr 3, 2024 17:24
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This episode set up the scenario as so doomed that it seems like it will need an unbelievable (and unsatisfying) turn of events. If there's a moment where Toranga is like "aha, you are about to execute me but now I am playing my trump card" and it flashes back to a bunch of stuff that was hidden from the viewer with the Erasmus getting refitted with the cannons and then Blackthorne sailing into Osaka's harbor and wrecking shop, I am going to be very disappointed. This miniseries has been better than that kind of Disney-style plot.
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Apr 3, 2024 17:31
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I mean if it's a true hail mary plan that he himself doesn't believe has much chance of success, that would make his reflection and evident moods at least understandable, but if it turns out he had full confidence the whole time, I'm not sure how it will work. Seems like it could be artifice just for the audience, which feels way out of place given how excellent the writing has been overall.
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Apr 3, 2024 17:31
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Toranaga made a deal with the pope off screen.
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Apr 3, 2024 17:35
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:It absolutely has to be this. The meeting with Gin was basically an acknowledgement that he's up to something but won't tell anyone the plan Yeah that was my feeling. And I hope so, I mean I want Toranaga to be the guy with the secret master plan, but yeah at this point I hope it makes sense, the show has been pretty grounded so far and I hope it sticks the landing.
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Apr 3, 2024 17:36
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:It absolutely has to be this. The meeting with Gin was basically an acknowledgement that he's up to something but won't tell anyone the plan I might be totally off here, but my read of that scene was that she was offering to do something about Toranaga's brother while he was at her teahouse in exchange for land in Edo. Toranaga dismissed it at first but then decided later to take the deal and see what she comes up with, turns out she let his idiot son in to do the deed and now he's down a son.
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Apr 3, 2024 18:02
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Would wearing a helmet saved Failson from a lovely death? He should have worn the dong helmet while storming the brothel.
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Apr 3, 2024 18:28
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glassyalabolas posted:Would wearing a helmet saved Failson from a lovely death? He should have worn the dong helmet while storming the brothel. Yes but only if he tightened the straps.
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Apr 3, 2024 18:43
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no because he didn't shave the middle of his hair so it would've slipped off
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Apr 3, 2024 18:50
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If there is a secret 4D chess Toranaga plot, my guess is that it's about pulling Saeki onto his side after all while using the regent thing as a way to get Ishido to let down his guard. Use the pretext of escorting Toranaga to Osaka to get a Saeki's forces up there without arousing suspicion, wait until the gates open, surprise decapitation attack before the garrison can mobilize, and there you are. Either the whole thing had been prearranged (which would indeed be a bit disappointing), or he does have some hook or plan to try and convince Saeki while they're on route.
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Apr 3, 2024 19:23
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spoiler the guy who says he wont become shogun becomes shogun
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Apr 3, 2024 19:36
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Perestroika posted:If there is a secret 4D chess Toranaga plot, my guess is that it's about pulling Saeki onto his side after all while using the regent thing as a way to get Ishido to let down his guard. Use the pretext of escorting Toranaga to Osaka to get a Saeki's forces up there without arousing suspicion, wait until the gates open, surprise decapitation attack before the garrison can mobilize, and there you are. Either the whole thing had been prearranged (which would indeed be a bit disappointing), or he does have some hook or plan to try and convince Saeki while they're on route. The level of deception DOES seem to have at least a solid foundation. All the characters who we know can't be trusted: Yabu's been playing both sides from the beginning, Blackthorne just wants to leave, Mariko wants to die, Buntaro is a loving mess, Toranaga's son is a moron, his nephew is a moron who's loyal to Yabu. It's just such a cliche plot development, though. Like Episode 9, it turns out we were watching a heist movie the whole time.
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Apr 3, 2024 19:38
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