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Jamwad Hilder posted:It did not happen as much as you might think. There were very strict conditions to actually go through with it. You had to have a witness and you had to prove your case was valid to the local lord. If it was found you weren't justified, you could potentially be executed yourself. I am not denying that it happened, because it did, but samurai didn't go around killing whoever was mildly rude to them because that would be ridiculous. yeah but how much of that was legalism taking place in the actual tokugawa era.
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Apr 4, 2024 18:35
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:The biggest takeaway I got from reading "Silence" (which Scorsese's movie is based on and takes place in the 1630s as Tokugawa's grandson is banning Christians) is that samurai-era Japan was pretty drat lovely for the 95% of the population that wasn't samurai. Rice was a luxury for special occasions. No generous cuckoos. some time afterwards the tokugawa started settling samurai down into trades because ronin kept roaming around causing problems. There's like a dozen taiga dramas about "builders of a new meiji japan" that start off with samurai that are just a step above peasants in that they carry swords.
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Apr 4, 2024 18:36
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:The biggest takeaway I got from reading "Silence" (which Scorsese's movie is based on and takes place in the 1630s as Tokugawa's grandson is banning Christians) is that samurai-era Japan was pretty drat lovely for the 95% of the population that wasn't samurai. Rice was a luxury for special occasions. No generous cuckoos. That's funny considering it's food for poor people now.
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Apr 4, 2024 18:45
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Most of the famous kiri sute gomen stories seem like they're from the edo period. I don't think anyone is arguing it never happened in sengoku jidai, but if anything I feel like being in a state of war would make your lord less patient towards murdering and antagonizing the tax base without good reason
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Apr 4, 2024 18:48
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Cojawfee posted:That's funny considering it's food for poor people now. Not sure if this is a joke or an actual misapprehension of what it means to be poor. During university I did a year abroad in Taiwan and the class was having a discussion about people scavenging for tubers during wartime. I asked why they didn't just eat plain rice (without meat), because that was my idea of a subsistence diet. My teacher said what are you talking about, rice is for rich people. Later I learned about how labour and land intensive it is to make rice, harvesting, drying, husking, etc. Compare this to digging up a tuber and eating it. Yes, in America if you are poor, your subsistence diet is plain rice without meat, i.e. a rich person's diet on the global scale.
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Apr 4, 2024 19:05
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Cojawfee posted:That's funny considering it's food for poor people now. This isn't true in a lot of East Asian societies - Rice is extremely important and sought after to this day of all societal classes, especially white rice. For example in Vietnam the phrase commonly used to say "Lets eat dinner" is "Ăn cơm" which translates to "Eat Rice". Though attitudes are changing among the younger and more urban, wealthier members who want brown rice or other grains as its healthier. But white rice it still highly sought after even for those of wealth, and the older generations especially still look at things like brown rice, millet, barley, etc as "lesser" grains. *EDIT* Like its hard to conceptualize to westerners how important of symbol white rice is. Here is an interview from the show "Pachinko" which describes a scene where the main character is cooking white rice, and why that scene is so important. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoI8DrWW-GA Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Apr 4, 2024 |
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Apr 4, 2024 19:48
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No Mods No Masters posted:Most of the famous kiri sute gomen stories seem like they're from the edo period. I don't think anyone is arguing it never happened in sengoku jidai, but if anything I feel like being in a state of war would make your lord less patient towards murdering and antagonizing the tax base without good reason depends on the lord, depends on the quality of the offending samurai, depends on the peasant. a lot of people nowadays assume rational behaviour by all members of past societies, when we don’t even have that rational behaviour nowadays! Tankbuster posted:yeah but how much of that was legalism taking place in the actual tokugawa era. not to mention that we’re BEFORE the tokugawa shogunate here, which was notably an improvement. like, why would the callous murder of peasants be famous/infamous? oh yeah because it became recognised as A Problem, and not Perfectly Normal also this isn’t a time of war, not yet, not truly, this is an awkward pause in an era of war, and all the keyed up soldiers have been sitting on their hands for A While, and if you know anything about the behaviour of even modern soldiers when they’re not literally At Home, wherever they may be, you know they do Bad Things STILL, and poo poo, even At Home and to members of their households, even in the modern nuclear family where that’s extremely tight knit, even modern soldiers are often pieces of poo poo. now expand that household, make soldiery a hereditary job, have such huge class divide whereby the soldier class has the advantage of actual nutrition and “elevated culture”, along with indoctrination of superiority - the “better” ones also instilling notions of noblesse oblige and treating peasants as a responsibility and not a nuisance - while also making the soldier class act as police? anyone who has any faith in knights or samurai or any other equivalent to not be among the worst of society need to re-examine their prior conceptions of history
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Apr 4, 2024 20:43
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Jamwad Hilder posted:It did not happen as much as you might think. There were very strict conditions to actually go through with it. You had to have a witness and you had to prove your case was valid to the local lord. If it was found you weren't justified, you could potentially be executed yourself. I am not denying that it happened, because it did, but samurai didn't go around killing whoever was mildly rude to them because that would be ridiculous. we have bodycams nowadays, plus any bystander has a camera in their pocket. do you think the cops of the past were any better than the ones of today.
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Apr 4, 2024 20:46
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Tankbuster posted:some time afterwards the tokugawa started settling samurai down into trades because ronin kept roaming around causing problems. There's like a dozen taiga dramas about "builders of a new meiji japan" that start off with samurai that are just a step above peasants in that they carry swords. A part of that was the rise of Zaibatsus, a merchant class and the Tokugawa themselves. Japan was in this weird realm of Imperial Fuedalism where samurai could not own land under Imperial edict, that was for the peasant class. What the samurai did own was the seed and farming equipment. So the peasants would pay for the seeds and use of the equipment with the harvest. Then the Tokugawa take power and issue an edict that all clan heads must also own and maintain a secondary residence in the capitol creating a massive fiscal drain on the clans so they couldn't afford to raise an army and rebel. So some enterprising peasants start offering contracts for cash in exchange for 20% of the next 5 years harvests. Because overseeing money was women's work and not fit for a Samurai these lords would quickly end up with barely any of the harvest for themselves to pay taxes. It got so bad that three times in the 250 years of the shogunate edicts were declared eradicating these contracts and giving the full harvest back to the samurai. In the end most of the Meiji restoration forces were made up of these ronin bankrupted and displaced by government policy.
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Apr 4, 2024 21:55
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Cojawfee posted:That's funny considering it's food for poor people now. If I recall, millet was their main food.
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Apr 5, 2024 02:19
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Solaris 2.0 posted:This isn't true in a lot of East Asian societies - Rice is extremely important and sought after to this day of all societal classes, especially white rice. For example in Vietnam the phrase commonly used to say "Lets eat dinner" is "Ăn cơm" which translates to "Eat Rice". Similar to Japanese words for breakfast, lunch and dinner, which literally translate to "morning cooked rice," "afternoon cooked rice" and "evening cooked rice." "Rice" is like the Western use of "bread" as a metonym for money or what's needed for dignified survival. "Give us this day our daily bread..." the main "bread winner" of the house, etc. Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 02:30
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:we have bodycams nowadays, plus any bystander has a camera in their pocket. do you think the cops of the past were any better than the ones of today. In some ways yeah they were. They were more crooked for sure, but they were a lot less militant
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Apr 5, 2024 03:27
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:If I recall, millet was their main food. For anyone that's interested, part of FX's ad campaign was sponsoring an episode of Tasting History highlighting a typical banquet of the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXQA6CsBpig
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Apr 5, 2024 03:53
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Where is The Emperor in all this? I get that he’s basically a figurehead but in all the show’s power politics scenes he hasn’t even been mentioned, even in passing. If he was insignificant even as a symbol, why have an emperor?
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Apr 5, 2024 04:30
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:Where is The Emperor in all this? I get that he’s basically a figurehead but in all the show’s power politics scenes he hasn’t even been mentioned, even in passing. If he was insignificant even as a symbol, why have an emperor? He died, the kid is the backup emperor with these knucklehead regents doing the job until he's old enough, are you watching it backwards?
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Apr 5, 2024 04:35
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Why doesn't Master Chief just show up and fix everything? Edit: And spare me your "Only rich people could afford master chief" Cojawfee fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 04:36
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:Where is The Emperor in all this? I get that he’s basically a figurehead but in all the show’s power politics scenes he hasn’t even been mentioned, even in passing. If he was insignificant even as a symbol, why have an emperor? Sidelined, but technically the ultimate power. In the book there is a scene in which a seventh-ranked prince is in Osaka as the representative of the emperor, and basically exerts no authority other than being untouchable, which in itself gives him a certain authority. Though there have been plenty of cases of the emperor being manipulated to the military's advantage, in the setting of Shogun, he's just chilling at court in Kyoto, mostly hands off. Stegosnaurlax posted:He died, the kid is the backup emperor with these knucklehead regents doing the job until he's old enough, are you watching it backwards? That's not the emperor. "Shogun" or "Taiko" are basically "commanders in chief" or militaristic prime ministers -- the primary minister to the emperor. One of the big deals of the Meiji Restoration that ended the Edo period in 1867 is that it "restored" political power to the emperor after centuries of not really having any authority. Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 04:39
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:Sidelined, but technically the ultimate power. I'll just shut my big mouth then
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Apr 5, 2024 04:47
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This reminds me of a discussion I heard about the British monarch around the time of Elizabeth's death in 2022. They were wondering if the Queen actually had any power, and the conclusion was that her authority was like a nuclear weapon doomsday device. She could exert it once (such as dissolving Parliament or sacking a prime minister), but then that would be the end of the royal family.
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Apr 5, 2024 04:51
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Stegosnaurlax posted:I'll just shut my big mouth then To be fair, the show probably should have thrown at least a sentence or two in there somewhere clarifying this.
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Apr 5, 2024 04:52
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Stegosnaurlax posted:In some ways yeah they were. They were more crooked for sure, but they were a lot less militant these ones are literally the military
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Apr 5, 2024 04:53
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It's been said, but it feels like they've worked themselves into a baffling narrative corner this episode. If Saeki was privy to a clever plot and only pretending to publicly 'arrest' Toranaga in order to march him up to the gates of Osaka, it'd be much more fun and satisfying to watch that twist play out rather than revealing it in the messy aftermath that will presumably open Episode 8 (and the reveal of Toranaga's brilliance massively undercut by the obvious audience question of 'could you really not have predicted your idiot son flying off the handle and accounted for that in some way?'.) If the reveal is going to be that Toranaga has secretly summoned another army offscreen, that's going to be weightless and unsatisfying, a la late-era Game of Thrones. If Blackthorne's strop over Toranaga's surrender was genuine, it's a tiresome character regression after he literally just pledged undying allegiance. If it was a fake strop to cover Blackthorne's exit as part of some cunning plan to sneak back onto the Erasmus (as Reddit seems to think) then to what purpose? He's only drawing attention to himself. If Nagakado's death makes Saeki change his mind and align with his brother, that's going to feel like the entirety of Episode 7 was narrative foot-dragging - we don't have any reason to care about Saeki's inner state or emotional allegiance, we've only just met him.
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Apr 5, 2024 10:32
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I was looking at IMBD and it's kind of blowing my mind that Tadanobu Asano, (Yabushige) is the dude with the scarred face from Ichi the killer. It is also making me annoyed that they completely made a forgettable new Mortal Kombat movie. Both Yabushige and Toranaga were in it and it was completely forgettable. The original was by no means a great movie but it was fun as poo poo and pretty much all of the characters were memorable as poo poo.
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Apr 5, 2024 13:47
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Stegosnaurlax posted:In some ways yeah they were. They were more crooked for sure, but they were a lot less militant They had to create the FBI because local law enforcement was murdering people for money in Oklahoma.
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Apr 5, 2024 13:55
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:Sidelined, but technically the ultimate power. Also wasn't the Taiko "Taiko" rather than "Shogun" because the Emperor refused to give him the rank on account of his low birth? That's at least something.
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Apr 5, 2024 14:33
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It was only technically up to the Emperor, he didn't really get a say. It's up to tradition. Only a member of one of three clans has the right to claim the title based on their status as splinters of the Imperial family. All but two shoguns came from Tokugawa's clan. Nobunaga Oda had made a claim to being a member of the third family that hadn't supplied one before bit was killed before the ceremony.
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Apr 5, 2024 14:49
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:This reminds me of a discussion I heard about the British monarch around the time of Elizabeth's death in 2022. They were wondering if the Queen actually had any power, and the conclusion was that her authority was like a nuclear weapon doomsday device. She could exert it once (such as dissolving Parliament or sacking a prime minister), but then that would be the end of the royal family. Her technically direct representative did this back in the day - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis - and Australia is still a monarchy. In general though, it would be for things like 'the government is literally trying to abolish democracy' and then it gives opposition to that a legitimacy it would not otherwise have. Pretty sure if a Japanese Emperor tried that with a Shogun in this period he'd just be found mysteriously having fallen out of a window the next day, mind you. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 15:15
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:For anyone that's interested, part of FX's ad campaign was sponsoring an episode of Tasting History highlighting a typical banquet of the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXQA6CsBpig My big takeaway is that regardless of culture, rich assholes like to show off by wasting food.
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Apr 5, 2024 15:26
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grobbo posted:It's been said, but it feels like they've worked themselves into a baffling narrative corner this episode. To the Blackthorn stuff, I think this is somewhat intended as a cultural difference - Blackthorn is from a society where it's allowable and even at times expected to stand up to a higher ranked officer/noble type when they're doing dumb poo poo. Part of his loyalty is that he sees this as Toranaga throwing his life away and that fit would serve, in his culture, to express that strongly and force them to react. It felt more like how the show leans a bit hard into some stereotypes about the differences between the cultures to me, more than Blackthorn just giving up and peacing out. I could definitely be wrong but that was my take during the scene.
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Apr 5, 2024 15:28
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feedmegin posted:Her technically direct representative did this back in the day - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis - and Australia is still a monarchy. Yeah, and there were probably a whole bunch of nephews and cousins lying around more than happy to be made the new do-nothing emperor. I have no idea how true to life it is, but there's an episode in Season 3 of The Crown in which Lord Mountbatten and a bunch of bankers craft a plan to coup the government, and they conclude that it's simply not possible unless the queen is on board. She was not on board. Edit; Charles Dance Charles Dancing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi68RUUkoRI Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 15:32
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Arglebargle III posted:They had to create the FBI because local law enforcement was murdering people for money in Oklahoma. That... was some time ago, things got better before they got worse.
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Apr 5, 2024 16:14
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AFewBricksShy posted:I was looking at IMBD and it's kind of blowing my mind that Tadanobu Asano, (Yabushige) is the dude with the scarred face from Ichi the killer. Huh, he was also Hogun in the Thor movies.
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Apr 5, 2024 16:42
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Stegosnaurlax posted:He died, the kid is the backup emperor with these knucklehead regents doing the job until he's old enough, are you watching it backwards? lmao
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Apr 5, 2024 18:11
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When John goes to spar Yabu and holds his sword like a cutlass, is he even doing that right? He clearly had no idea how to wield a katana, but is that ANY kind of proper technique, or is it meant to show that he's a completely untrained swordsman in any country?
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Apr 5, 2024 18:29
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navy people didn't use swords that often, he comments on that
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Apr 5, 2024 18:53
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Yngwie Mangosteen posted:navy people didn't use swords that often, he comments on that Naval people used swords all the time. It's called a boarding action. Merchant seamen, on the other hand...
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Apr 5, 2024 19:18
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Yngwie Mangosteen posted:navy people didn't use swords that often, he comments on that When they do, they use cutlasses, even (and it's not exactly unknown even in the Navy to use them, boarding actions are a thing). But yeah even on land Englishmen are not exactly known as master swordsmen in general and in the navy in particular unless he were a gentleman (he's not as far as I can tell), he's not likely to have gotten much training in it. Unlike, I would imagine, his opponent. Edit: merchant seamen on the sort of 'sea merchant' that has a bunch of cannon and raids Portuguese ports might, though, expect to see a fight or two.
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Apr 5, 2024 19:20
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there's still a world of difference between grabbing a heavy cutass and bashing another guy who doesn't know how to use a sword vs. wielding a katana against a trained samurai, and it's pretty clear that when he got in a fight, Blackthorn grabbed his brace of pistols not a sword.
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Apr 5, 2024 19:31
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wouldn’t he have used a boarding pike or something, for melee if anything?
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Apr 5, 2024 20:11
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I assume he'd also be busy with the ship instead of boarding.
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Apr 5, 2024 22:58
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